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No Commandment to Honor Mary

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Pariah, Nov 12, 2007.

  1. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Peacebewithyou;22714)
    (Faithful;22702)
    What do you think you are each acheiving on this thread?[​IMG]
    This thread, like all others is an exchange of ideas & opinions. I believe that the Catholic faith is 100% correct and most pleasing to God, and others obviously believe that their faith is correct and most pleasing to God.I'm not here to convert anyone. My purpose is two fold - I would like everyone to hear where I'm coming from - even if you don't agree - and I would like to better understand your position as it differs from mine.We may disagree about many things - but I am certain we agree on Jesus, our Savior. So for His sake, we should probably try to get along.I apprecite this forum in particular because it appears that everyone sticks to the topic at hand and doesn't turn it into some sort of personal attack on those who'd disagree with them.You asked who I am taught by? My answer would be the Holy Spirit, of course.Lots of people, actually MANY churches claims that their teaching is by the Holy Spirit...Not exactly true at all...there will always be divisions. Christ said it. (Luke 12:51)So the real question is what does men doctrines hath communion with God's doctrines? What does evil hath communion with good? What does darkness hath communion with light?JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, the Saviour of the world.
     
  2. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Hi JUSTMEE!!!Welcome as we trust the Lord to deliver the wayward believers from catholicism to a real relationship with God through Jesus Christ the Lord! Be it now or later, to Him be given all the glory! Amen.:grouphug: :sign:
     
  3. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Hi Peacebewithyou,
    Saint Paul implied an identity between the apparent bread and wine of the Eucharist and the body and blood of Christ, when he wrote: "27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.So Pariah, because I believe Jesus, I am unwilling to give up the Eucharist. Many of His disciples walked aways saying this is too hard [to believe] John 6:6 - I will not be one of those. I am very sad for you that you do not get to receive the Savior in this way.
    If you are going to use John 6, then you must use all of it.John 6: 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. That was before the topic of communion, right? And yet to do the works of God was to do what? Believe on Jesus. Onward we go, God be willing,to your quoted verses & more.John 6:53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. What bread is that? It was mentioned before those quoted verses of yours.John 6: 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.Thus He was not referring to the following verses about communion, but accepting His one time sacrifice for us. Let us continue.. to where the disciples were confused.John 6: 59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? Now heed what Jesus said to the disciples plainly.62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. It is not eating the bread nor drinking the wine that is how we receive Jesus. It is believing His words, thus believing Him. How else do we receive the promise of the Holy Spirit?Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,So this faith is being remembered in communion as we rest in Him; not continuing the sacrifice for sins. It is that one time offering of Himself... His flesh that is sacrificed.Hebrews 10: 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised[​IMG] Now unto Paul's warning....he was addressing people just drinking and eating supper, when they should be doing communion in remembrance of Him of what He had done with His body. This was the unworthy manner he was warning against as people were diving in on the bread, leaving others hungry and some diving in the wine, being drunken.1 Corinthians 11: 20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. 23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. So once again, you have to take scriptures in context in exposing traditions of man.
     
  4. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Hi Peacebewithyou,
    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    Yep. I wouldn't say those words of the creed. Protestant churches have modified them but all the creeds done were of catholic origin or done in eceumenical format in stating something that validates the catholic church as the one true church.And as far as the Holy Spirit being worshipped and glorified, that is not scriptural for you to do that. If we are led by the indwelling Holy Spirit, we would testify of Jesus Christ and glorify the Son, for that is the only way to glorify the Father. So once again, to honor the Son is to honor the Father which the Holy Spirit would be leading you to do. That is the only way to glorify God is through the Son.John 15: 26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.John 16: 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. That is how the Holy Spirit becomes the "Divine Witness", for He will not speak of himself in seeking to glorify Jesus Christ so we are not to either since He is leading us to testify of the Son also, right?John 5: 31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.John 7: 18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. Thus together as the Spirit leads us, we testify of Jesus in seeking to glorify the Son, thereby glorifying the Father.John 13: 31Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. John 17: 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. So the indwelling Holy Spirit, the faithful witness, all the invitations in scriptures points to Jesus for life... not to the Holy Spirit for life for it is by Jesus, we receive the promise.John 5: 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41I receive not honour from men. 42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?Remember this in how Jesus will judge as He is the Bridegroom and we are the Bride?John 5: 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Why does it have to be that Way? Because there are other spirits in the world and that is why we can only know the Holy Spirit by Him being in us as the indwelling Holy Spirit points us to Our Saviour and Good Shepherd in relating To God the Father. Other spirits would love to steal attention away from Jesus in the worship place to create chaos and take time away from reading His sayings to learn more of Him. It is for this cause Jesus is to be exalted only... in order to glorify God the Father in His Son.Philippians 2: 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.So once again, by the scriptures, the traditions of men are seen even in the creeds as it takes the spotlight off of Jesus and exalt the Holy Spirit which the Holy Spirit would never lead any believer to do, and exalt a Church to place between the believer and Him. All invitations points to Jesus for life. Not to the Holy Spirit for it is by Jesus we receive the promise. Not to the Church because by coming to Jesus, we become a member of His body of believers.. the real Church as Jesus is the Head of that Church.That is the faith and Good News in Jesus Christ. Amen.
     
  5. Carissa001

    Carissa001 New Member

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    oh that was very interesting about the catholic meaning!!!I wondered about that before! This is such a great board!
     
  6. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Hi Carissa,I'm new here so understand that just like a church, a message board can go wrong. As long as we point to Jesus to be exlated so that we may always be reminded of our rest in Him, we can bear witness of the Good News to man. I'm sure I can go wrong as well so discern everything by the King James Bible with the Good Shepherd's help. Jesus shall never steer you wrong since He desires a personal relationship with you based on trust.I hope Jesus restore the joy of your salvation so that your mood changes from sad to happy or inspired... God be willing.
     
  7. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight New Member

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    (thesuperjag;22541)
    Matthew 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.Jag
    A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and taking bits and pieces of scripture without looking at the entire picture leads one to incorrect conclusions. There is a passage in scripture which says "The fool says there is no God". Would I be guilty of drawing a false conclusion if I only quoted that the bible says "there is no God"? Of course I would because I only got a piece of the teaching.The same with your conclusion regarding Matt 6:7. It is not the repetition that is the issue. It's the vanity. God looks into our heart, not solely at our words.Did Jesus forget His own teaching in Matt. 26 when He prayed THREE times in the garden of Gethsemane, saying the exact same words again and again?Recall that in Luke 18 the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying "God be merciful to me, a sinner." We are told that his REPETITIVE prayer was PLEASING to God because it was offered with a sincere and repentant heart.Doesn't Rev. 4:8 tell us that the angels pray day and night without cessation the same words "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty."?Again, in Matt 6:7, it is not the repetition that is the issue. It's the vanity. Hope that clears things up for you.
     
  8. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Jesus deferred people from honouring His mother, Mary.Luke 11: 27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.Matthew 12: 46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. 28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.John 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.John 5:22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Dare we elevate Mary or any saint to a position of a thief by Christ's own words?John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.... 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door:You can only get to know Jesus by coming to Him directly for Him to get to know you. To broaden the way given in approaching God the Father is by offering another door to enter besaides Jesus Christ which by definition.. "instead of Christ" means the anti-christ. So how much honour is Mary really being given? Worse. A defamation. What honour is there being shown to the Bridegroom when we relate to God through another way other than through His Son? None, for how would anyone like their fiancee being intimate with other relations? It is by the Son, we have access to the Father. Through the Son is the only way we can relate to God and to know Him personally. No other way is given.
     
  9. gumby

    gumby New Member

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    This is true but still i see no sin in honering her anyaway. Now worshipping would be a diffrent story alltogether but honering mary or any other christian person in my eyes is fine.
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Hi there gumby!Are you talking about one of the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:12 and Deuteronomy 5:16?I just wanted to make sure to say that we are not allowed to honor Mary as "the Mother of God" because she is not. God existed way before Mary did. Mary is only the mother of a human named Jesus. Again, not the mother of God.
     
  11. gumby

    gumby New Member

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    Exacly, mary was jesuses birth mother by a virgin birth as the bible states. As for the scpiture yes i am rfering to the first scripture.
     
  12. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Just want to go further just to make sure... You also know that Christ existed before Mary too? Right?
     
  13. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    Well yeah mary had Jesus by virgin birth, and Jesus was born fully God and yet fully man. I can see how you can say she is the mother of God, and I see nothing wrong with it. Catholics do not worship her by calling her that, all they are saying is that she gave birth to Jesus.now I'm saying this in general, there is nothing wrong with honoring something good and fruitful, but there is a thin line that seperates honoring something, and worshipping something, and a lot of christians ( catholics in general, but others) cross that line. its not on purpose, but the breach is there and it hurts my heart to see it.
     
  14. gumby

    gumby New Member

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    For me personally mary is a very holy and revered woman but mary did not die on the cross for my sins JESUS did. I dont woship mary i honer and revere her but i dont worship her by any means, and as for your comment jordan yes i do know that.
     
  15. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Do you honour and revere Joseph on the same level as Mary? If not, then do consider that if you think God wants you to honour Mary and Joseph... He doesn't because He prefer "rather" that everyone do the will of God and that is the only way to honour God as in God the Father... is to honour the Son. That is the only way to honour God or show honour to God. The moment we do not, even for a moment, we are no longer honouring the Father. The only way to honour the Father is through the Son.The early church had plenty of time to write letters and set up pilgrimage to visit Mary and pay her homage, but that had never happened. Instead, we find this as the core focus in fellowship.1 Corinthians 2:2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.Jesus is the Bridegroom after all. He is our first love. Let our focus be narrowed in such a way that those that have gone overboard with honouring Mary will see the importancey of keeping their eyes on Jesus in our walk with Him.
     
  16. gumby

    gumby New Member

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    I do the will of the father pariah, and i dont think that god is going to judge me at all for honering mary. Its not the unpardanable sin and god even says in exodus to honer thou father and mother, its one of the core fundamental commandments and mary as we all know was the mother of jesus so therfor i still continue to honer mary. I dont worship her or pray to her but she was a very very influential female in the bible and she deserves my respect i beleive.
     
  17. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    We are to honour our father and our mother, but Mary is not your mother.All I can say is ask Jesus about this. I trust Him to let you know His will on the matter.There comes a time when even that commandment of honouring your father and your mother cannot be kept.Matthew 10:33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.So there is an honour that comes from God only... Many believers converted to Christianity from Islam has been disowned from the family. Some were killed.
     
  18. gumby

    gumby New Member

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    obviously god himself honers mary as jesuses mother otherwise god would have not had it in his will for mary to be jesus mother. Matthew 1:16 "jacob was the father of joseph the husband of mary, by whom jesus was born, the messiah"Matthew 1:23 "behold the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which translated means means, god with us"Matthew 1:25 "but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a son; and he called his name jesus"Matthew 25:1 "then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their and went out to meet the bridegroom"Luke 26-28 "now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from god to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 "to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgins name was mary 28 "and coming in, he said to her, greetings favored one! the lord is with you"
     
  19. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    If you look for the excuse to do it like the catholics do, I'm sure you will succeed, but the Lord Himself deferred in two references to defer people from honouring His mother by instead, seeking to do the will of God. Those people had thought God would want them to honour God or honour Jesus by honouring Mary, but John 5:22-23 says that is not the way to honour God.And since we are called not to cause a brother to stumble then those brothers that are stumbling by honouring Mary to going overboard, then we have to stand apart for their sake and not honour Mary at all.She was blessed among women for having given birth to the Saviour, but she was not blessed in such a way that she deserved to give birth to the Saviour for she needed the Saviour just as much as anyone else did.
     
  20. gumby

    gumby New Member

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    Your issue is with god my freind, go in peace.
     
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