No Degree Required

[justaname]

So what you are saying is that you can only be filled with the pure word of God if you are paid to be a christian?

No, that is not what I said. I said education can normalize the theological positions held by church leaders. IE: Christology, Soteriology, Systematic Theology...

That would rule out Derek Prince one of the greatest expositors of scripture of the last century. He had no theological degree and he was not paid by a church. He lived of his ministry by faith and let his ministry speak for itself.

So he was paid by the ministry... How is that different than a pastor being paid through his ministry?
In reality I never mentioned money in this discussion, you did. The subject is education.

In addition, most denominations have been started by those who were paid to be a Christian. The denomination they belonged to and were paid a salary by, moved on to start their own denomination becuase their current one would not agree to their "new revelation." So how pure is that?

Again the subject is education, not salary.
As far as new revelation is concerned... The Christ has come and now sits at the right hand of the Father, how much more revelation do you need?
You seem to be expanding into subjects not current with the discussion. Many things have happened in the name of Christ and the church that I don't agree with. We are not discussing these, only whether or not education is vital for certain positions in the leadership of the local churches.

Apparently the subject is not up for debate as there have been many surveys done as to why the church is in decline. They show amongst other things that the church is failing to be the church. People see it as another institution which they can or cannot belong to depending on their interests. The only difference to say the gardening club or the motoring club is the purpose of it.

If you want to discuss this start a thread about it. When I can make time I will discuss this there.

Two things. Paul was only one out of hundreds of thousands and he wasn't involved in the whole church only parts of it and there is no evidence that his letters were read by anyone other than those who they were written to.

I have read his letters, have you? I can think of hundreds of people I know personally that have read them.
Many read his letters, yet it is not only his letters but his ministry was instrumental in the beginning of the early church. The account in Acts is evidence of that.

Secondly, the scripture is very clear that the church functions on the priesthood of all believers, not the priesthood of Paul so that means everyone was involved in the life and ministry of the church. Can you tell me how many of them had a degree?

That is a loaded question.


Your arguments are full of fallacies...

 

[FHII]

[SIZE=medium]“No Degree Required”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]By Zach Wood[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Acts 4:13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So often, we are told we need certain certifications in order to do a job. Granted, you do need this and would be a great idea to have the proper certifications in order to do certain jobs that you apply for. You definitely wouldn’t want me working on an aircraft because I don’t have that training. And, you wouldn’t want me working underneath your car because I don’t have ASE certification either. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]It makes sense that in order to do certain jobs that we could apply for, we would need the proper schooling, education and training. It just makes sense in order to do the job right. Sometimes, this happens in our thought process when we are sharing the love of Christ and the Gospel to others. We think we just need more education, more training and more preparation before we can really share His Word with others. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This is not to say that bible college and seminary education is wrong by any means, but sometimes we rely way too much on book knowledge and don’t just ask God to give us the words and direction we need when sharing with others. If we have Christ in our lives, we have the Holy Spirit and He will guide us and lead us in the way we need to go. I really like here how Peter and John were both unschooled and very ordinary men who were on fire and passionate about spreading the Good News. They didn’t have a college or seminary degree, they just had a love and passion for Jesus Christ. Wow, how simplified that is![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Be assured that if you love Jesus Christ and are passionate about telling others about Him, the Holy Spirit will guide and lead you. Rely always on His guidance, realizing that we not always need the proper training as we would in a normal job setting. Let God use you and the Holy Spirit move through you.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]To serve God and share the Gospel, there is no degree required, just a willingness to be used by Him. [/SIZE]

I haven't followed this thread, so I'm not sure if I'm repeating what has already been brought up. I'm not going to do a lot of research to back me up, but I am going to rely on my recollection....

Jeremiah was a young child and protested his calling to an extent. He wasn't sure if he was the right one. Moses -- who was very educated as he grew up in the Pharoah's palace -- also was unsure about his persuavive abilities. I think Elisha actually attended a prophet school, but I'm unsure. Samuel was raised by Eli... Not a great man of God, but a schooled one if nothing else. However, John the Baptist came from a strict religous upbringing. I think his father was actually a Levite. And Paul.... He was actually a Pharasee! Probably the most educated man in the Bible But Peter was a fisherman. I reject that Peter was illiterate, but I won't go into it right now... But yea.... Ignorant men.... As for Jesus.... Even he went through an education process.

So, it seems to me that God picked "idiots" and "scholars". So the only thing I can perceive is God's gonna pick and choose as he see's fit!

I truly believe you have to follow a Man of God. But it's not his education that makes him such. Or breaks him. Don't despise an expensive education because Moses and Paul had one... Don't despise no education because Jeremiah simply had a hot coal put on his tongue.

As for you and I... Sheep in God... The Lord will give us what to say at the appropriate time. But, we must still have a preacher. Something that preacher says to you today may be the answer to a question you are asked 5 years from now!

 

[Prentis]

That is precisely my point. You are using blanket accusations and condemnations toward "general" institutions that I do not believe you are very familiar with. I would be cautious about such things.

In terms of the communal living of the early Christians, I think we should be cautious here. We live in a drastically different culture and time. To suggest that because they were communal and forsook their own rights to personal property does not mean that personal property is a bad thing. It simply speaks to the generosity of a people who, due to persecution were often incredibly poor and destitute. Early Christians were willing to sacrifice their wealth for others who likely may have lost family, jobs and ability to provide for themselves because of Jesus Christ. To argue that the church today is not following the NT because we don't live in communes with no personal possessions is a mistake. The beauty of NT Christianity is that it does not give us a set of rules of how things must be conducted either in the worship meeting, giving, or believers interaction with each other. Christianity has been able to impact all kinds of cultures and people groups because it is not a faith built on a particular social system but because it is based on the Gospel.

Also, while it is true that many churches have their pastors do the primary teaching during a worship service, this is certainly NOT to say that many people are not involved in using their gifts. We live in a culture of urbanization. Unlike the first century world where major cities would have around 50-100k people, we live in a world with cities in the multi millions. Also, people are able to get in their cars and travel quickly from place to place. It only makes sense that you would have much larger groups of believers gathering together in the modern world. Churches that have hundreds or thousands of believers gathering simply cannot logistically function if everyone had an opportunity to stand up front and speak. However, most of these churches utilize small groups where there are rotating leaders who meet with others in their homes, not to mention Sunday school classes, Wednesday night classes and so forth. Also, there are missions trips, service projects and so forth that are led by different people with different gifts. There is much more to almost every church I have been involved in than merely the Sunday morning teaching.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying our churches in America are right on target by any means. However, neither should we hurl generalized accusations at teaching institutions because we don't think the church looks enough like the NT. There are good reasons for that in many cases. Fortunately, Christ is not bound by any particular social system or organizational structure.

The very reason that we know so much was wrong with the early church, as you pointed out, is that the Apostles didn't put up with not being 'right on target'. That is the very problem: we are not called to be 'okay', kind of obedient, somewhat good. We are called to be a bride without spot or wrinkle. The reason many think there is nothing wrong is being they do not see the height of the calling described in the Word.

Many do not perceive the deplorable spiritual state of the North American church, and it must be so! 'You say that you are rich, but you are poor'. We are called to perfection, to the full stature of Christ, individually and as a body... If one can see this, and see how far we have removed ourselves from this, 'repent now, and be zealous!'

Blessings!

Hi Prentis, nice reading. In teh end of it all, all mens instituions can do, is teach you the bible, there understanding of it, only the Holy Spirirt can lead you into the truth, and only Chirst can teach you of Himself,

Its sad to say, that man hjas fallen so far from God, he doesnt know Him anymore and now is creating his own version, denomination by denomination.

In all His Love

Yes! We create our own version and then think everything is ok.

But when we see the height of the calling... We see how short we fall.

Blessings in Christ to you!

 

[mjrhealth]

filled with people learned in the pure word of God.

Here in lies the issue. People go to bible college, seminary school and lear "the bible". depending on who or what denomination is running taht school, it gets slanted towards "their" doctrine. What you end up with is a lot of peole preaching "their" version of the gospel, not based on the " pure word" of God but their own undertsanding. Why,
1. because most are not called by God.
2. They are not led by the Spirit.
3. it is mens doctrines and not Gods truth.
4. They are not being tauight by the Holy Spirit nor Jesus but by men who are learend but what that count for in the Kingdom of Heaven

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


So many seek the wisdom of man, so few seek revelation from God, one is is Mcdonalds breakfast the other Nourishing food.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh_11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There is no life outside of Christ, it matters nothing to God what certificates you may have, or how much of the bible you know, it only matters that you know His Son.

The "dead letter" cannot give you life, not unless you are in the desert have no food and hungry so you need to resort to eating the pages, and even than it will not satisfy.

In all His Love

 

[marksman]

So, it seems to me that God picked "idiots" and "scholars". So the only thing I can perceive is God's gonna pick and choose as he see's fit!

But I can't see any evidence that they were picked because of their education. In fact it seems that the most important qualification for those chosen by God is to serve, not have authority over which education and pastors seem to do most of the time as in "I am educated so I am more qualified than you to be the leader" or "I am educated so I am qualified to be a pastor and tell you what I think the scripture says" or "if you want to be a pastor you have to attend bible college to be accepted."

Better that they sit at the feet of Jesus for two years and ask the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth, which is what Paul did, spending three years on his own learning the mind of the Master, NOT getting a degree of some kind and certainly not studying the New Testament because it did not exist.

Here in lies the issue. People go to bible college, seminary school and lear "the bible". depending on who or what denomination is running taht school, it gets slanted towards "their" doctrine. What you end up with is a lot of peole preaching "their" version of the gospel, not based on the " pure word" of God but their own undertsanding. Why,
1. because most are not called by God.
2. They are not led by the Spirit.
3. it is mens doctrines and not Gods truth.
4. They are not being tauight by the Holy Spirit nor Jesus but by men who are learend but what that count for in the Kingdom of Heaven

There is no life outside of Christ, it matters nothing to God what certificates you may have, or how much of the bible you know, it only matters that you know His Son.

Ah brother, music to my ears for the simple reason that I have been there and done that. I have been to man's school of learning and I have sat at the feet of Jesus and although I enjoyed man's seat of learning immensely, compared to the feet of Jesus learning, THERE IS NO COMPARISON.

Since my two years at the feet of Jesus learning, I have never looked back. I now know God, not know about him. My life no longer revolves around what others say I should believe, only what Jesus says, especially when we are told because the person said it therefore it must be right.

My experience is that the truth does SET YOU FREE and the scriptures make it quite clear that only the Holy Spirit can lead you into all truth.

It seems that we are in good company as Jesus had problems with religion and religious interpretation and he was very forthright in his condemnation of the religious leaders so anyone who stands up for the truth is going to get verbally crucified as the religious leaders in Jesus day were determined to hold on to their position and power and their religious bondage despite what Jesus said.

 

[justaname]

Here in lies the issue. People go to bible college, seminary school and lear "the bible". depending on who or what denomination is running taht school, it gets slanted towards "their" doctrine. What you end up with is a lot of peole preaching "their" version of the gospel, not based on the " pure word" of God but their own undertsanding. Why,
1. because most are not called by God.
2. They are not led by the Spirit.
3. it is mens doctrines and not Gods truth.
4. They are not being tauight by the Holy Spirit nor Jesus but by men who are learend but what that count for in the Kingdom of Heaven

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


So many seek the wisdom of man, so few seek revelation from God, one is is Mcdonalds breakfast the other Nourishing food.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh_11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There is no life outside of Christ, it matters nothing to God what certificates you may have, or how much of the bible you know, it only matters that you know His Son.

The "dead letter" cannot give you life, not unless you are in the desert have no food and hungry so you need to resort to eating the pages, and even than it will not satisfy.

In all His Love

The other side of the coin is people read the Bible, with little to no instruction from others, then gain a distorted view of the gospel. Then they decide they need to teach a congregation that you can just name and claim whatever you want. They teach that God is there to serve us and not the latter. Then people are told they don't have enough faith and that is why they are not getting what they want.

Also you have others receiving revelation, Joseph Smith, they deem from God starting a completely different religion all the while insisting that they are Christians.
Then you have others who deny the divinity of Christ and the reality of hell because it does not fit their interpretation of the Bible...Charles Taze Russell.

Then we have the obvious from every post on this forum... everybody thinks they are "Spirit led" and that they have the "right way." Their opinion is the only correct view and the rest of the church is just wrong and displaying what it means for "man's doctrines."

Most of the time I see posts that point out just how bad everyone else is doing it, how wrong their teachings are, and how bad the state of the church is. If someone has a different view, they are part of the problem and not the solution. If there is a disagreement the argument tactic is to say these are "men's teachings" and not God's. The reality of the matter is God used men to express all of His teachings and writings! Moses, John, Paul, Peter, and Jesus just to name a few.

What I tend to hear is Israel in the wilderness as opposed to saints loving one another!

Now lets get to the heart of the matter...

Truly there are different views on how to interpret scripture. First you have sacramental theology, then you have a literal hermeneutic, also you have a critical view of scripture. There is different views on the inerrancy of scripture. There are different views on soteriology, eschatology, and ecclesiology.

Lets look to the Jesus seminar, and the age of enlightenment...

Let me name men the likes of Calvin, Wesley, Luther... Polycarp, Aquinas, Augustine

All of this to say there is enough there to make your head spin.

Some say you only need the Holy Spirit to teach you or Jesus. Where is their classroom? I will be the first to sign up. Perhaps I could phone God and set a personal appointment, maybe tomorrow around 9:00 am. I tend to retain more in the morning and I am willing to scrap my entire schedule for eternity.

Oh wait a minute, maybe I am not being spiritual enough to really listen to the HolySpirit's teachings. Maybe I need to listen harder to that small soft voice, maybe I need more faith, or more prayer. Oh yeah it must be that I am too dependent on "man's teachings." Phooey!

I am not one to boast, yet I am steeped in the Word. I have continual relation with God. I pray daily and that often. I set my mind on things above and avoid sin. I am a broken vessel, humbled by the compassion of the Christ. I am a living sacrifice dedicated to the needs of others. I implore God to open my mind, soften my heart, and teach me. I seek the constant filling of the HolySpirit and the outpouring of God's grace and love in my life. And this not for my own gain, but so that I might better share the gospel with others. This so I might tear down powers and principalities filled with darkness in the strength and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. This so I might be a better witness in my everyday example. This so I might teach others in the power of the HolySpirit. All this I boast in the Lord, for it was Him that gave me the heart and resolve to seek Him in earnest, as He gave the Spirt that brings this dead body to life. It is He that quickened my passion and sharpened my compassion.

Being taught by the HolySpirt is not what some make it out to be. Most scriptures are taken out of context and applied incorrectly.

As an example...
1 John 2:26-27
27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Some say "see... if you have the HolySpirt then you don't need anyone to teach you."

WRONG. This is not what this verse teaches.
First off "you have no need for anyone to teach you" is a teaching within itself. Was John undermining himself in scripture? I think not.

No, John is writing to this audience because of the heresies he was combatting. Certain groups I will call separatists were teaching against what the apostles taught from the beginning. This is the main purpose and thrust of the letter, to dispel the teachings of the separatists. Now I did not come to this knowledge by some mystical revelation of the HolySpirit, I learned it from a man whom I feel is anointed with the HolySpirit.

Without this insight you can see how some may distort what is intended by the author, yet with this insight you can see past our modern bias and limited scope and into the depths of what scripture really reveals. Education can and does help people.

Now in full humility I do concede that there are those with a real knack for preaching and teaching that are not educated, yet when it comes to certain issues these individuals will humbly seek out what the scholars say... most if not all preachers and teachers have some form of library usually with more than one commentary in it.

 

[marksman]

Many do not perceive the deplorable spiritual state of the North American church, and it must be so! 'You say that you are rich, but you are poor'. We are called to perfection, to the full stature of Christ, individually and as a body... If one can see this, and see how far we have removed ourselves from this, 'repent now, and be zealous!'

So right Prentice, so right, especially for one who is so young (compared to this old fox).

And I would add it is no different to the church in the UK, Europe, Australia, New Zealand and most of western nations. Here in Australia we are facing a homosexual holocaust and all the church does is twiddle its thumbs and say "we are too busy running the church to get involved in that sort of thing."

Apart from a handful, the church here is spiritually poor but they are the only ones who do not comprehend the fact. As long as you have a couple of dozen people attending you are doing OK. In the AOG, when you have 25 attending, you have the right to leave your job and appoint yourself a full time leader and expect the congregation to finance your efforts.

WHAT A JOKE!!

No wonder in these western nations the church is not growing or is in decline.

Your arguments are full of fallacies...

So are yours, too many to mention so I am not going to respond to them so that you can heap fallacy upon fallacy. We will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[justaname]

So what you are saying is that you can only be filled with the pure word of God if you are paid to be a christian?

That would rule out Derek Prince one of the greatest expositors of scripture of the last century. He had no theological degree and he was not paid by a church. He lived of his ministry by faith and let his ministry speak for itself.

In addition, most denominations have been started by those who were paid to be a Christian. The denomination they belonged to and were paid a salary by, moved on to start their own denomination becuase their current one would not agree to their "new revelation." So how pure is that?


Apparently the subject is not up for debate as there have been many surveys done as to why the church is in decline. They show amongst other things that the church is failing to be the church. People see it as another institution which they can or cannot belong to depending on their interests. The only difference to say the gardening club or the motoring club is the purpose of it.


Two things. Paul was only one out of hundreds of thousands and he wasn't involved in the whole church only parts of it and there is no evidence that his letters were read by anyone other than those who they were written to.

Secondly, the scripture is very clear that the church functions on the priesthood of all believers, not the priesthood of Paul so that means everyone was involved in the life and ministry of the church. Can you tell me how many of them had a degree?

I mean your arguments commit informal fallacies.

You start with a straw man argument.
You give a red herring.
You use a mind projection fallacy.
You use an incomplete comparison.
You use an argument from ignorance.
You end with a loaded question.


Please do not take this in the wrong fashion... the reason I give this information is for better dialogue in future discussions. Let me say I love and respect you in the Lord, and agree to disagree. Shalom.

 

[Prentis]

Here in lies the issue. People go to bible college, seminary school and lear "the bible". depending on who or what denomination is running taht school, it gets slanted towards "their" doctrine. What you end up with is a lot of peole preaching "their" version of the gospel, not based on the " pure word" of God but their own undertsanding. Why,
1. because most are not called by God.
2. They are not led by the Spirit.
3. it is mens doctrines and not Gods truth.
4. They are not being tauight by the Holy Spirit nor Jesus but by men who are learend but what that count for in the Kingdom of Heaven

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


So many seek the wisdom of man, so few seek revelation from God, one is is Mcdonalds breakfast the other Nourishing food.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh_11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There is no life outside of Christ, it matters nothing to God what certificates you may have, or how much of the bible you know, it only matters that you know His Son.

The "dead letter" cannot give you life, not unless you are in the desert have no food and hungry so you need to resort to eating the pages, and even than it will not satisfy.

In all His Love

Amen!

The gospel is not in word, but in power. How then can we have a system producing thousands of leaders who have words, but not the power spoken of in the New Testament proclaim to be spreading the true gospel?

The fruit reveals what is going on.

Many people use Saul/Paul to back up degrees and certificate. The irony is that the very things Paul had learnt led him to persecute the Christians, and after conversion, he said he counted all those things as dung. He admitted that his education was of no avail to attaining Christ.

We have many people who can quote the Bible, but who can demonstrate the power and life it testifies of? This is the calling of the servant of God.
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 1)

 

[mjrhealth]

Some say you only need the Holy Spirit to teach you or Jesus. Where is their classroom? I will be the first to sign up. Perhaps I could phone God and set a personal appointment, maybe tomorrow around 9:00 am. I tend to retain more in the morning and I am willing to scrap my entire schedule for eternity.

Oh wait a minute, maybe I am not being spiritual enough to really listen to the HolySpirit's teachings. Maybe I need to listen harder to that small soft voice, maybe I need more faith, or more prayer. Oh yeah it must be that I am too dependent on "man's teachings." Phooey!

Jesus never stopped talking neither has God it is just man has stopped listening and become carnal and has relegated God Jesus and the Holy Spirirt to Mysteries and folklore. Its no wonder the world is the mess it is in. Nothing has changed its the same today as it was when Jeus was teaching. If you are doing all this praying what would be the point if you could not hear the voice of The Lord.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

God will not chnage for anyone. Same today yesterday and forever........

in all His Love

 

[Dodo_David]

Now in full humility I do concede that there are those with a real knack for preaching and teaching that are not educated, yet when it comes to certain issues these individuals will humbly seek out what the scholars say... most if not all preachers and teachers have some form of library usually with more than one commentary in it.

It makes no difference whether or not you have a degree if you don't have the humility to admit to your limitations in knowledge.

 

[Wormwood]

Here in lies the issue. People go to bible college, seminary school and lear "the bible". depending on who or what denomination is running taht school, it gets slanted towards "their" doctrine. What you end up with is a lot of peole preaching "their" version of the gospel, not based on the " pure word" of God but their own undertsanding. Why,
1. because most are not called by God.
2. They are not led by the Spirit.
3. it is mens doctrines and not Gods truth.
4. They are not being tauight by the Holy Spirit nor Jesus but by men who are learend but what that count for in the Kingdom of Heaven

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


So many seek the wisdom of man, so few seek revelation from God, one is is Mcdonalds breakfast the other Nourishing food.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh_11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There is no life outside of Christ, it matters nothing to God what certificates you may have, or how much of the bible you know, it only matters that you know His Son.

The "dead letter" cannot give you life, not unless you are in the desert have no food and hungry so you need to resort to eating the pages, and even than it will not satisfy.

In all His Love

This is nonsense. Here is my translation of what you are really saying.

"Their doctrine" = views I don't agree with
"Not called by God" = leaders I don't like
"Not led by the Spirit" = not charismatic enough
"Pure Word of God" = everything I think about the Bible

Who are you to judge who is "called" or "led" or "spiritual" or are taught by men and therefore reject the "pure" word of God? To read the Bible is to interpret it. I don't think anyone would claim that a degree is more important than knowing Jesus, nor is that the mentality in any biblically conservative school that teaches the Scriptures.

 

[Prentis]

'You shall judge them by their fruit.'

We have received a better covenant, a better high priest, a better sabbath (rest), and better promises. The result thereof is a greater holiness and closeness to God now available to us through Christ Jesus.

If the fruit is not holiness, and this walk with God accompanied by the fruits thereof, then it is not the tree it claims to be!

The leaders and institutions of today are more like Cain than Abel, and they are to Peter what Cain was to Abel. When Abel made a sacrifice, fire came down, and when Peter prayed, the Spirit came down in power, but when men preach in today's institutions, the response is usually... nothing, just as it was with Cain. The sacrifice is not accepted because we have not set our hearts as one to serve God. We run to Egypt (the world) for strength.

When holy men walk the earth, it does not go unnoticed. When Paul, Silas and the rest of them went to Macedonia, and it was not long before the whole city was in uproar and they were beaten and thrown into jail. All who live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

So we see neither the holiness spoken of, since our churches have as much divorce, sin, etc, as the world, and no more of a blameless life than the rest of the world, and we do not see the persecution promised to those who walk thus. We have neither the fruit, and neither the hatred of the world for our devotion to God.

Luke 12: 54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is. 55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass. 56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? 57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

The church at large has gone into a deep slumber, and believed the lie of Laodicea. 'We are rich, we have need of nothing'.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

If we discern the times, we will understand we have come to the last days prophesied, where men will turn from the truth to fables. But the power of the gospel is available to the one who would believe!

 

[mjrhealth]

"Their doctrine" = views I don't agree with
"Not called by God" = leaders I don't like
"Not led by the Spirit" = not charismatic enough
"Pure Word of God" = everything I think about the Bible

One step at a time.

"Their doctrine" = views I don't agree with

Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Heb_13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

"Not called by God" = leaders I don't like

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

"Not led by the Spirit" = not charismatic enough

To the pharisees

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

"Pure Word of God" = everything I think about the Bible

No idea what you are trying to say here. but the Pure Word of God,

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.Cant get more pure than that.

In all His abundant love and Grace.

PS. The reason why you dont hear of the persecution from those who in Christ is because the expect no less and do not speak of it, worse thing is for them it usually comes from christians just like Jesus with teh Jews.

 

[Wormwood]

Prentis,

When holy men walk the earth? We are holy by faith. Paul's designation for believers (even misguided & carnal believers) is "saints" or holy ones. Your condemnation of seminaries because they don't produce modern day miracle workers or world shakers is off base.

MJ-

How does quoting Jesus validate you assertions that those u disagree with are led by men and not called or spiritual?

 

[mjrhealth]

WW have you ever asked God if He agrees with them, just because one cause himself "pastor" does not make on called by God. Thats the flesh, looking but not seeing, listening but not hearing.

In All His Love

 

[Dodo_David]

Folks, I see nothing edifying about this thread.

It looks to me as if some people are presenting themselves as prophets who speak against modern-day pastors and elders.

The Lord Jesus spoke against mere mortals trying to separate the chaff from the wheat.

So, instead of complaining about what we think others are doing wrong, how about us concentrating on doing the work that the Lord has given each of us to do.

 

[FHII]

I don't see anything edifying about this thread either... Least not edifying God. I'm with you on that.... Don't like your stance on Halloween, but I'm with you on that, and I haven't left a comment on Halloween.

Good show!

 

[justaname]

Jesus never stopped talking neither has God it is just man has stopped listening and become carnal and has relegated God Jesus and the Holy Spirirt to Mysteries and folklore. Its no wonder the world is the mess it is in. Nothing has changed its the same today as it was when Jeus was teaching. If you are doing all this praying what would be the point if you could not hear the voice of The Lord.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

God will not chnage for anyone. Same today yesterday and forever........

in all His Love

Let me say your negative inferences, although possibly out of ignorance instead of arrogance, are forgiven.

I do hear the voice of the Lord. I hear the voice of the Lord as the wind rustles through the trees. His voice sings to me through the song of the robin and through the infant's cry. His voice teaches me in His written word and through the sermon of the Sunday pastor. His voice comforts me when I am alone and soothes my anger when insulted.

I hear His voice, and I follow Him.

Shalom...

'You shall judge them by their fruit.'

We have received a better covenant, a better high priest, a better sabbath (rest), and better promises. The result thereof is a greater holiness and closeness to God now available to us through Christ Jesus.

If the fruit is not holiness, and this walk with God accompanied by the fruits thereof, then it is not the tree it claims to be!

The leaders and institutions of today are more like Cain than Abel, and they are to Peter what Cain was to Abel. When Abel made a sacrifice, fire came down, and when Peter prayed, the Spirit came down in power, but when men preach in today's institutions, the response is usually... nothing, just as it was with Cain. The sacrifice is not accepted because we have not set our hearts as one to serve God. We run to Egypt (the world) for strength.

When holy men walk the earth, it does not go unnoticed. When Paul, Silas and the rest of them went to Macedonia, and it was not long before the whole city was in uproar and they were beaten and thrown into jail. All who live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

So we see neither the holiness spoken of, since our churches have as much divorce, sin, etc, as the world, and no more of a blameless life than the rest of the world, and we do not see the persecution promised to those who walk thus. We have neither the fruit, and neither the hatred of the world for our devotion to God.

Luke 12: 54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is. 55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass. 56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? 57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

The church at large has gone into a deep slumber, and believed the lie of Laodicea. 'We are rich, we have need of nothing'.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

If we discern the times, we will understand we have come to the last days prophesied, where men will turn from the truth to fables. But the power of the gospel is available to the one who would believe!

You speak great blasphemes against the Church. I will pray for you.

You make gross generalizations that have no real evidence. You speak nothing of the underground in China or Iraq. You say nothing of the movement in India or the struggle in Ethiopia. No mention is made of the institutions of learning that combat the secular education with a true Christian worldview. Not a word is uttered of the men who are imprisoned this very day because they proclaim Jesus as Lord. You speak nothing of the hospitals that practice every day by the funding of giving Christians or the hungry that are fed daily because of the hands and feet of Jesus putting into practice what they preach.

No, you speak of the Church as if she was spotted and full of blame. Yes, your mouth speaks curses. May the HolySpirt convict you of all truth. Remember if it is a sinking ship you wish to portray, you also are in the boat, unless it is you are a wolf in sheep's clothing.

In the Love of Christ

 

[Prentis]

PS. The reason why you dont hear of the persecution from those who in Christ is because the expect no less and do not speak of it, worse thing is for them it usually comes from christians just like Jesus with teh Jews

Yes. The word says 'all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution'. Christ says 'Woe to you if men speak well of you, for so they spoke of the false prophets'. The modern church has attempted to please many men, and has become false because of this. When we repent and return to Christ, as he calls the Laodiceans to do, we will once again live godly and see the opposition of the enemy. For now, we have compromised with him.

You speak great blasphemes against the Church. I will pray for you.

You make gross generalizations that have no real evidence. You speak nothing of the underground in China or Iraq. You say nothing of the movement in India or the struggle in Ethiopia. No mention is made of the institutions of learning that combat the secular education with a true Christian worldview. Not a word is uttered of the men who are imprisoned this very day because they proclaim Jesus as Lord. You speak nothing of the hospitals that practice every day by the funding of giving Christians or the hungry that are fed daily because of the hands and feet of Jesus putting into practice what they preach.

No, you speak of the Church as if she was spotted and full of blame. Yes, your mouth speaks curses. May the HolySpirt convict you of all truth. Remember if it is a sinking ship you wish to portray, you also are in the boat, unless it is you are a wolf in sheep's clothing.

In the Love of Christ

You are correct, I do not speak of the church in China, and Iraq, and India, and the struggle of those who suffer for Christ and righteousness. I say nothing on that subject because I have nothing to say against them. Their works praise them, and show what they are. But my posts were not about them to start with.

Was Jesus speaking a curse on the Laodicean's when he threatened to spew them out, or was it a warning and call to return to the truth? The modern church in North America has very much become a sinking ship, because it has associated itself with the world and it's ways. The world is condemned and will burn, this truth is not said in hatred but in love, that those who see would come out. The truth is spoken so that those who perceive it would indeed depart this sinking ship and enter the ark of our salvation, Christ, becoming a disciple and being transformed in his image. The boat of the Pharisees, who were descendants of God's people, was also a sinking ship, and they did not perceive it. But we are called to come outside the camp to seek Him, that is, outside of all the institutions that have attached themselves to the world, and into the wilderness where he awaits us.

If we live as he did, we will be persecuted and hated, but we have made ourselves acceptable to the world in North America.

If you do not perceive this, and not agree, that is fine. I will pray for you also.

Blessings!