No Heaven if you don't mortify the deeds of the flesh

[justbyfaith]

Yet, by your own admission, you state you look at others to see if they bear all that fruit. No way to get around the hypocrisy of that. It is nothing BUT searching for faults in others. Better to do as Jesus said, and just worry about ourselves. As I said earlier, we are NOT The Holy Spirit, Jr.

And again, you are seeking to point out the faults in me.

What you aren't realizing is that I have said before that I don't claim to be perfect; because I'm not Jesus.

It seems that mormons believe that the good fruit that Jesus is speaking of in scripture is absolute perfection.

But that is not what He is talking about.

What He is talking about is that the good tree will bear the fruit of love.

Some people judge without looking at things through spiritual eyes; and do not understand that the treatment that they are getting is based in love. They feel that they are not being loved for that they are not getting warm fuzzies.

Sometimes love is exhibited in cold pricklies. If someone is behaving in the wrong manner, a cold prickly may be in order, administered in love (such as a spanking from your father; or a looking down the nose from your friend). These things help us to be better people, utilizing the tactic of negative reinforcement. Sometimes that is needed psychologically. And I believe that people do respond in this way out of love for the people that they are responding to.

The cry of "you are a hypocrite", unfortunately for you, is only returning to you three-fold. When you see a speck in your brother's eye and try to remove it, chances are you have a beam in your own. Jesus said to take the beam out of your own eye first so you can see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

So then, we are to be fruit inspectors; but we are not to be fault-finders: as there is a difference between these two things.

Looking for every imperfection in someone is one thing; and is very likely based on animosity towards that person.

Looking for the fruit of love in a teacher is another thing. If someone is bearing thorns and thistles (attacking you left and right) chances are, that is someone who would not bring you sound teaching from God's word.

 

[Willie T]

And again, you are seeking to point out the faults in me.

What you aren't realizing is that I have said before that I don't claim to be perfect; because I'm not Jesus.

It seems that mormons believe that the good fruit that Jesus is speaking of in scripture is absolute perfection.

But that is not what He is talking about.

What He is talking about is that the good tree will bear the fruit of love.

Some people judge without looking at things through spiritual eyes; and do not understand that the treatment that they are getting is based in love. They feel that they are not being loved for that they are not getting warm fuzzies.
I',
Sometimes love is exhibited in cold pricklies. If someone is behaving in the wrong manner, a cold prickly may be in order, administered in love (such as a spanking from your father; or a looking down the nose from your friend). These things help us to be better people, utilizing the tactic of negative reinforcement. Sometimes that is needed psychologically. And I believe that people do respond in this way out of love for the people that they are responding to.

The cry of "you are a hypocrite", unfortunately for you, is only returning to you three-fold. When you see a speck in your brother's eye and try to remove it, chances are you have a beam in your own. Jesus said to take the beam out of your own eye first so you can see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

So then, we are to be fruit inspectors; but we are not to be fault-finders: as there is a difference between these two things.

Looking for every imperfection in someone is one thing; and is very likely based on animosity towards that person.

Looking for the fruit of love in a teacher is another thing. If someone is bearing thorns and thistles (attacking you left and right) chances are, that is someone who would not bring you sound teaching from God's word.

I'm not trying to do anything to you or for you. Personally, I probably wouldn't even associate with someone who acts like you do. What I am doing is flatly telling you to quit running down people here that I think a great deal of.

 

[marks]

The sad danger in this kind of "preaching" is the discouragement heaped upon many Christians who might actually come to believe that they are already to be Perfect, instead of being perfected. (There is not a soul on the face of this Earth who has achieved Perfection.... nor will they ever achieve it while still alive.)

And equally sad is the proliferation of this error on this forum.

 

[marks]

I suspect we wouldn't be told to restore Brothers caught in sin with gentleness and love... if it was not anticipated that they would sin again (rather seriously, it seems) even after they had become Christians.
And if you are so weak in Biblical knowledge, Stan, that you require Chapter and Verse for the Scriptures I have already referenced in my posts..... then I suggest you might be only memorizing words on paper, and not taking it into your heart.

Hi Willie,

That's just the thing. This thinking is so easily shown for what it is for those who truly want to know the truth.

John wrote, Little children I write these things to you that you may not sin, and if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, even Jesus Christ the Righteous.

He did Not write, and if you sin, then you can know you are not in Christ, not born again, and you need to get saved!

That people buy into this bondage breaks my heart!

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

From my understanding, Oneness Pentecostals do not reject the Trinity; but because they emphasize the Oneness of the Lord they are persecuted by those who do not understand their position and considered to be non-Trinitarians by them.

I was a member of three different Oneness Pentecostal groups during a period of 11 years. Most of the individuals I knew and all of those in ministerial positions did reject the trinity. It was the primary reason for their separation from other Pentecostals about 100 years ago. None of them would have ever spoken of a Triune God.

The primary differences among the three I did attend originally was race. The UPC was white while one of the others was black and the third was Hispanic. The sharp differences between them race-wise had faded by the time I was a member [1976-1987].

 

[marks]

Again, I think you are misunderstanding the perfection required. A rosebud, though immature, can still be perfect in its own sphere. So also Christians. We may not be perfectly mature, and our characters not perfectly formed...yet...but that does not mean we can not overcome sin. The perfection is found in our willingness to surrender...in our union with Christ and our cooperation with His Spirit working within. Perfection can be found in our resolve to love God with all our hearts and mind, and our neighbours as ourselves.
Now such may be rare, for as Christ said, it is a narrow road. But such is possible, because God is God, and that is what He specialises in...doing what men think impossible.

I think the problem arises when people start saying, unless you are perfect, you have no part. That is hogwash. No one is perfect, not in this life, no matter what they want you to think.

The false teachers can go on saying that all they want. So many times I find in the same places where they tout their perfection - never openly, always implicit, at least on this forum - they likewise demonstrate their carnality. But so it goes.

Some say they have no sin, but then they only count certain kinds of sins, not all sin. But let anyone who says one cross or untrue or presumptuous word against another, that word shows the truth. Deny all you want, but others can see reality.

We surrender, but so long as we are in this body of flesh, we are caught in conflict.

I can understand having a certain sensitivity to the topic, as we watch people with little knowledge of Scripture succomb to this seduction.

The narrow way is in Christ, not in our behavior.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

I was a member of three different Oneness Pentecostal groups during a period of 11 years. Most of the individuals I knew and all of those in ministerial positions did reject the trinity. It was the primary reason for their separation from other Pentecostals about 100 years ago. None of them would have ever spoken of a Triune God.

The primary differences among the three I did attend originally was race. The UPC was white while one of the others was black and the third was Hispanic. The sharp differences between them race-wise had faded by the time I was a member [1976-1987].

I know that I have the same Holy Ghost that they do, promised through the same condition found in Acts 2:38-39.

I think that if they sought the Holy Spirit for the answer, instead of holding to the doctrine taught them by the church, that they would understand a distinction between the members in the Trinity.

Personally, I was baptized in Jesus' Name and I also place an emphasis on the Oneness of the Lord. But I also do not deny the distinction between the members; because I see it clearly in scripture: although I see it in fewer places than I see the Oneness of God emphasized.

Specifically, distinction is mentioned in John 14:26 and John 16:27-28.

But it is also clear that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5) and that that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:26, Luke 10:21) and the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3) and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17). Since a Lord is a Person, that means there is one Person ruling over everything. I understand the intricacies of how He can be one Person and yet also three. By reading the threads that I have started on this subject of the Trinity, you can understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ.

The Trinity is NO lie.

Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

 

[farouk]

So the church doubles down, sounds like the council of Trent, doubling down on everything the reformers criticized.

So what is the role of the Holy Spirit in Oneness doctrine and is he a full personage of God? Am I considered a Tritheist because I am Trinitarian?

Insofar as ecclesiastical councils happen to affirm Biblical doctrine, then they are correct.

The doctrine of the Trinity - God in Three Persons - is deeply Biblical.

 

[justbyfaith]

The doctrine of the Trinity - God in Three Persons - is deeply Biblical.

More accurately, one God in three Persons.

 

[farouk]

More accurately, one God in three Persons.

...could also be stated, Three Persons in one God.

 

[justbyfaith]

...could also be stated, Three Persons in one God.

I prefer the reverse order as it is more accurate to the truth of holy scripture.

 

[aspen]

Well JBF, I think Oneness doctrine is incorrect when it comes to the truth of the Trinity, but it also sounds like you had a genuinely Christian experience when you were apart of the church. Although being baptized in the name of Jesus alone might need remedying. Don’t you believe this happens frequently with people who belong to churches with glitches in their doctrine? Doctrine does not save.

I have a good friend that is LDS - he writes for Ensign, quite a bit. When we were in graduate school together, we used to have deep discussions about the differences and similarities between Catholic and LDS doctrine. We had one rule that we followed during our discussions - neither of us questioned each other’s faith or relationship with God; we extended the benefit of the doubt with each other. The discussions were interesting, but the best part about talking with him was learning about his faith, which he felt comfortable to share with me over time,

I encourage you to extend the same respect towards LDS members here, recognizing that we all belong to imperfect churches and we are just pilgrims on the same path. It is silly when you realize that LDS simply reject the Trinity in a different manner than the church you sympathize with. And your sympathies were cultivated by getting to know the people behind the doctrine.

 

[aspen]

Ok I think I’ve made my point and I have learned from this conversation- thanks JBF.

 

[friend of]

Galatians 3:3 is in order here

 

[justbyfaith]

Doctrine does not save.

I believe that it does indeed save.

1Ti 4:16, Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is silly when you realize that LDS simply reject the Trinity in a different manner than the church you sympathize with.

Fact is, LDS doctrine has the Trinity wrong.

But in understanding the emphasis of Oneness Pentecostals on the Oneness of the Lord, I have come to understand the Trinity much more clearly...to the point that there is no doubt in my mind that I understand the doctrine quite well.

 

[brakelite]

I think the problem arises when people start saying, unless you are perfect, you have no part. That is hogwash. No one is perfect, not in this life, no matter what they want you to think.

The false teachers can go on saying that all they want. So many times I find in the same places where they tout their perfection - never openly, always implicit, at least on this forum - they likewise demonstrate their carnality. But so it goes.

Some say they have no sin, but then they only count certain kinds of sins, not all sin. But let anyone who says one cross or untrue or presumptuous word against another, that word shows the truth. Deny all you want, but others can see reality.

We surrender, but so long as we are in this body of flesh, we are caught in conflict.

I can understand having a certain sensitivity to the topic, as we watch people with little knowledge of Scripture succomb to this seduction.

The narrow way is in Christ, not in our behavior.

Much love!

While I agree that the way to glory is in Christ and in Him only, it must be remembered that being in Him must produce something. Our entrance into glory is determined and predicated on our relationship with Christ, but we are judged by the works and the resultant character growth that we allow God to create in us.
In every court trial, and that is what we are in, the verdict is based on evidence, not on hearsay. We can and must be perfect. But that perfection is found in our own sphere of growth and willingness to surrender to Christ's righteousness. We may not be perfectly sinless, but can be perfect in as much God has revealed to us our hearts and our positive response to His convictions.

 

[Waiting on him]

Oh, Can it. Are you asking people to nail you like a three year-old whenever YOU make a typo? Because, I for one, sure will oblige you if that is your desire. You knew full well, what *Enoch111* meant.

I forgot to cap He and Spirit?

 

[justbyfaith]

I forgot to cap He and Spirit?

It is disrespect to the Lord not to capitalize words that refer to Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

While I agree that the way to glory is in Christ and in Him only, it must be remembered that being in Him must produce something. Or entrance into glory is determined and predicated on our relationship with Christ, but we are judged by the works and the resultant character growth that we allow God to create in us.
In every court trial, and that is what we are in, the verdict is based on evidence, not on hearsay. We can and must be perfect. But that perfection is found in our own sphere of growth and willingness to surrender to Christ's righteousness. We may not be perfectly sinless, but can be perfect in as much God has revealed to us our hearts and our positive response to His convictions.

Col 3:14, And above all these things put on charity (love), which is the bond of perfectness.

Rom 5:5, And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.