No one can see the Kingdom of God unless...

[stunnedbygrace]

To me, John has made what he is saying painstakingly clear. I see that he is speaking about Jesus. Others may think I'm crazy, I guess, but I think John could not have been any more clear about what he was intending to say and show.

And this word, this him, became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Rev 19:13 KJV - 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 

[ScottA]

I described 'forever' as for both, the saved & unsaved, ...not, what you just stated. And explained how the word forever does not mean eternal, as used in this context.
So, I have absolutely no idea what you just attempted to explain?

I simply equated "forever" with "eternal" just as the scriptures do.

You, on the other hand...are obviously just expressing your own understanding.

 

[ScottA]

Wow, i wasn't expecting that!?
...like I said, such an audacious statement warrants only ridicule and dismissal!
You sound absurd, both in your exegesis, and your delusion.

Yeah, that's also what the fools, the atheists, and natural men say of God and those who come in His name. Go figure.

 

[Giuliano]

I think I have Johns mind on it...

In the beginning ( he expects the reader to go to these words in Genesis that he is referring to) the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

"In the beginning is a temporal term. God is eternal, no?

2 He existed in the beginning with God.

Yes. Genesis 1:1 has no words spoken in the act of creation.

Then he moves to the next part, creation.
God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.

"Create" (to produce something out of nothing) is used only twice after Genesis 1:1. In the rest of the chapter, a different word is used, translated as "made" in the KJV.

He (John) calls the word of God a "he" and a "him."
HE was with God.
HE was God.
All we see was created through HIM.

For me, God is creator, Jesus is His maker. God is eternal -- the Word appeared "in the beginning."

Where are your words before you speak them? They are still part of you. They are not separate persons.

This Word, this Him, brought life to everything that was created, and HIS life brought light to everyone. (Here, I think I have Johns mind on it too - he is speaking not of the sun and moon, but of the light spoken of before the sun and moon.

I agree with this.

And then, John speaks of this light also as a "him." He says God sent the Baptist to tell about the light, so everyone would believe through "him", this light.

So to John, the Word of God is a him.
The light is a him.

The Word took that form; but there was a time when "it" or "he" had not yet emanated from God. God conceived of how He wished to do things, created (made something out of nothing) and then the "Word" or "Logos" went forth, emanating from God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I could say as Thomas did that Jesus is my god; but I would not say Jesus is God. I agree with the Jewish idea about One God. The Jews have it right. Get this, too: Jesus uses the pronoun "what" to refer to God.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

 

[ScottA]

"In the beginning is a temporal term. God is eternal, no?

Yes. Genesis 1:1 has no words spoken in the act of creation.


"Create" (to produce something out of nothing) is used only twice after Genesis 1:1. In the rest of the chapter, a different word is used, translated as "made" in the KJV.

For me, God is creator, Jesus is His maker. God is eternal -- the Word appeared "in the beginning."

Where are your words before you speak them? They are still part of you. They are not separate persons.

I agree with this.

The Word took that form; but there was a time when "it" or "he" had not yet emanated from God. God conceived of how He wished to do things, created (made something out of nothing) and then the "Word" or "Logos" went forth, emanating from God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I could say as Thomas did that Jesus is my god; but I would not say Jesus is God. I agree with the Jewish idea about One God. The Jews have it right. Get this, too: Jesus uses the pronoun "what" to refer to God.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

John 17:5
"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

 

[Giuliano]

John 17:5
"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Yes. . . in the beginning . . . before this world was. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of this world. God knew in advance what kind of problems might crop up; and the Lamb would be the solution. God would not have created this world if problems could arise so big they couldn't be handled. God has the solutions before the problems are posed.

That verse raises another question. If Jesus was God when he was in human flesh, how is it that he lacked glory? That rather implies the Father and the Son are not equals.

 

[Giuliano]

Rev 19:13 KJV - 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

We're shifting gears again. No longer is the assertion that Jesus is the Word -- now it's that his name is the Word of God.

 

[DNB]

That doesn't make any sense to me at all. You can worship a person as long as you don't see the person as God?You can bow down and worship them as long as they aren't God and you don't see them as God? Meanwhile idolatry is worshiping anyone or anything BUT God. And meanwhile: I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I Am. So Jesus was saying He existed before Abraham was even born. In fact, He was saying He existed even before He Himself was born. And the Baptist agrees. He says: Someone is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed long before me. If you look into it, John was born before Jesus, so how is it that John says, He existed long before me?

Like I said, many characters in the Bible were worshiped, namely King David, 1 Chron 29:20. Don't be stringent about the word worshiped. Kings were worshiped and revered as is due to a monarch. Idolatry in worshiping in place of God, or as God. Worship does not have an exclusive meaning.

Jesus Christ was not an afterthought due to fall of Adam & Eve, or due to the promises made to King David. Christ was the first-born of all creation. History unfolded in the manner that it did in order to eventually reveal God's true and initial plan, i.e. Christ the head of creation.
Thus, Christ was before Abraham, John, Noah and Adam, the angels, etc...

 

[DNB]

^
sorry bro

Sorry? ...he replied, in the affirmative, i was shocked on many levels.

 

[DNB]

I simply equated "forever" with "eternal" just as the scriptures do.

You, on the other hand...are obviously just expressing your own understanding.

You're completely off your rocker!
You equated eternal with forever as the dictionary did, not as scripture did, ...where in world are you coming from...?
...oh yes, as you told me, from one who believes that he speaks on behalf of the Holy Spirit.
You are out there?

 

[DNB]

Yeah, that's also what the fools, the atheists, and natural men say of God and those who come in His name. Go figure.

You're not well Scott, ...horrible defense, horrible exegesis, shocking delusion and audacity.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

"In the beginning is a temporal term. God is eternal, no?

Correct. But I don't know your point. John took us where He wanted to take us - to Genesis. He wasn't saying God was not eternal. (Neither was I.) His point in the 1st chapter of John was to talk about Jesus and how He already existed with God and WAS God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Create" (to produce something out of nothing) is used only twice after Genesis 1:1. In the rest of the chapter, a different word is used, translated as "made" in the KJV.

Interesting...it certainly fits with my belief that Jesus was not created with " let there be light", but rather that God said more like...let the light shine in this dark place.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

For me, God is creator, Jesus is His maker. God is eternal -- the Word appeared "in the beginning."

That's fine. Like I said, you don't have to agree with John that Jesus was God. Your mind will grasp it how your mind can grasp it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Where are your words before you speak them? They are still part of you. They are not separate persons

Yes, well I never see Jesus and God as separate persons. I see Jesus as God humbling Himself and taking on flesh because He loved the world. Emptying Himself of His glory.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Word took that form; but there was a time when "it" or "he" had not yet emanated from God. God conceived of how He wished to do things, created (made something out of nothing) and then the "Word" or "Logos" went forth, emanating from God.

The word took the form of light? If that helps you, I guess... I think John was saying Jesus IS God, IS the Word, IS the Light. But you have to grasp it how you can grasp it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I could say as Thomas did that Jesus is my god; but I would not say Jesus is God. I agree with the Jewish idea about One God. The Jews have it right. Get this, too: Jesus uses the pronoun "what" to refer to God.

I fully agree that there is one God. I think Jesus is God having taken on flesh.

I think that's neat that Jesus used "what" there. When Israel said, it is manna, it translates sort of like - it is...um...I don't know...what is it??

Manna means - what is it?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

John 17:5
"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Excellent!! This also supports Jesus/the Light being not made or created but rather called forth to shine in this dark place.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That verse raises another question. If Jesus was God when he was in human flesh, how is it that he lacked glory? That rather implies the Father and the Son are not equals.

He lacked His own full glory as God because He emptied Himself of it and humbled Himself, to save and buy back and redeem His creation. This is the most shocking thing to me. Nothing shocks me as much as what God gave up to buy back His creation. You are left dumbfounded and saying...what??! What is man that you would care for him in this way???