No one has seen God at any time, John?

[Matthias]

I have told you nothing.

Have you told anyone anything?

But He has told you how this works, and you apparently did not believe Him.

I believe him. I’ve told you several times now already that I don’t believe you.

 

[ScottA]

Here’s what you’ll need to provide in order for me to reconsider: Jesus claimed for himself the creed of Judaism. (You called that “great” and “excellent” - I agreed that it is.) Please show me where in scripture you believe Jesus rejected the creed that he made his own.

Now you align with the atheists who demand proof of God, and Israel who demanded a sign.

But what I have been speaking of is not what I "believe." But by the same Spirit that I have been speaking, Jesus did not reject the creed He made His own--nor did I say anything of the sort. He simply promised more--that you have apparently not believed--meaning you have not actually followed Him, but have stopped following where you continue to resist going.

 

[Matthias]

Now you align with the atheists who demand proof of God, and Israel who demanded a sign.

I know that you’ve said that you won’t - part of your “I’ve told you nothing“ psyche - but you really should go back and find out what I’ve written about atheists and those who demand signs.

But what I have been speaking of is not what I "believe." But by the same Spirit that I have been speaking, Jesus did not reject the creed He made His own--nor did I say anything of the sort. He simply promised more--that you have apparently not believed--meaning you have not actually followed Him, but have stopped following where you would not go.

 

[Matthias]

Now you align with the atheists who demand proof of God, and Israel who demanded a sign.

I asked you to point out for me where in scripture you believe Jesus rejected the creed that he made his own.

That’s not demanding proof of God, nor is it demanding a sign.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus did not reject the creed He made His own ….

That’s right. His creed is still the creed of Jewish monotheism and he remains a Jewish monotheist. He hasn’t changed his theology.

--nor did I say anything of the sort. He simply promised more--that you have apparently not believed--meaning you have not actually followed Him, but have stopped following where you continue to resist going.

I believe all of his promises.

 

[ScottA]

I take that to be your concession that the trinitarians aren’t going to believe you when you share with them what you shared with me. I still think you should and that you might be able to persuade some of them.

No, I was saying that with those who reject Christ in any way, whether beginning or end, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Good. We’re in agreement that John wasn’t wrong.

Now this:

“Jesus is God.” Right?

Yes, Jesus is God. Scripture says this and even Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He is called, "the Everlasting Father" ...and Thomas called Him, "my Savior and my God" and Jesus did not rebuke him. So take ALL SCRIPTURE as whole. Don't toss out all the scriptures that say clearly who Jesus is.... the Word that was made flesh and walked among men.

So then, God in His spirit form, on His throne ...no one can stand in His presence and live. You need your new glorified body for that.

 

[Matthias]

No, I was saying that with those who reject Christ in any way, whether beginning or end, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Do you say that the trinitarians reject Christ in some way?

 

[Matthias]

Yes, Jesus is God. Scripture says this and even Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He is called, "the Everlasting Father" ...and Thomas called Him, "my Savior and my God" and Jesus did not rebuke him. So take ALL SCRIPTURE as whole. Don't toss out all the scriptures that say clearly who Jesus is.... the Word that was made flesh and walked among men.

So then, God in His spirit form, on His throne ...no one can stand in His presence and live. You need your new glorified body for that.

Thanks. Do you believe that Jesus is the Father?

 

[ScottA]

I asked you to point out for me where in scripture you believe Jesus rejected the creed that he made his own.

That’s not demanding proof of God, nor is it demanding a sign.

And I told you He did not reject His own creed, but surpassed the creed of that time, at which time, going He said, "follow Me."

 

[Matthias]

And I told you …

“I told you nothing” (post # 119).

… He did not reject His own creed, but surpassed the creed of that time, at which time, going He said, "follow Me."

Jesus hasn’t rejected his own creed, nor has he surpassed it. He insists upon his creed.

A Jesus who doesn’t stand by the creed of Judaism at all times is “another Jesus”.

 

[ScottA]

That’s right. His creed is still the creed of Jewish monotheism and he remains a Jewish monotheist. He hasn’t changed his theology.

"Changed" (His theology) is the wrong word. It is not that He changed, but rather that He had not revealed all, making what you hold to incomplete.

 

[ScottA]

Do you say that the trinitarians reject Christ in some way?

Yes.

 

[Matthias]

"Changed" (His theology) is the wrong word. It is not that He changed…

He hasn’t changed. He is still a Jewish monotheist.

… but rather that He had not revealed all, making what you hold to incomplete.

Adding to his creed would be changing his creed. Where in scripture do you see him adding to his creed?

 

[dak]

Yes, I understand what you are getting at. But it is as I have told you, that much is "image" and not the declaration of another.

I made a mistake and have now corrected it: I should have only wrote "Gen 1", (the whole chapter), not Gen 1:1, (the first verse), just to clarify.

Many things are doubled up as far as names and titles for the Meshiah and the Son, and surely for good reasons, (welcome to Adoptionism).

Which is which and who is who?

Psalms 8:4-9 KJV (a Psalm of David)
4 What is man, [Enosh] that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, [Adam] that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: [Gen 1:26]
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; [Gen 1:26]
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. [Gen 1:26]
9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Psalms 144:3 KJV (a Psalm of David)
3 LORD, what is man, [Adam] that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, [Enosh] that thou makest account of him!

Could this also be one of the reasons why there are six chapters of Aramaic in Daniel?
Aramaic does not use adam but only enash, (Enosh).

Daniel 7:13
13 Watching I was in the visions of the night, and behold, one like a Son of Enosh was coming with the clouds of heaven, and he came unto the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near before him.

What is this Son of Enosh given? And who inherits it with him?

Daniel 7:14-18 KJV
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

IN MESHIAH, ("in Christos"), as Paul would say. Thus we have the Son of Adam, (Gen 1:26), and the Son of Enosh, a mortal man, (the Meshiah), but these things are hidden in the Greek texts because both adam and enosh are simply rendered as anthropos, and thus the distinction is hidden.

 

[ScottA]

“I told you nothing” (post # 119).

How is it that you do not understand that even Christ spoke the words of the Father, saying "My words?" That now when I do exactly what He has arranged for by the Holy Spirit whom He sent, you reject what He has said that I have told you? Do you still not understand or believe how this works?

 

[Matthias]

Yes.

Then you are saying - even though you have “told me nothing” - that the trinitarians will be weeping and gnashing their teeth unless they repent and believe what you believe.

Don’t you think you owe it to them to warn them?

 

[Matthias]

How is it that you do not understand that even Christ spoke the words of the Father, saying "My words?"

I do understand that. Deuteronomy 18:15, 18.

That now when I do exactly what He has arranged for by the Holy Spirit whom He sent, you reject what He has said that I have told you? Do you still not understand or believe how this works?

I understand that the Jesus who is a Jewish monotheist isn’t the Jesus who sent you to me.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus hasn’t rejected his own creed, nor has he surpassed it. He insists upon his creed.

Do you reject that Jesus' creed was not fully stated at that time when your version of monotheism was formed, that there were things yet to be revealed that are a part of His creed?

 

[TLHKAJ]

The truth is, if you do not believe that Jesus is who He said/says He is, you will die in your sins, as you are believing in a false Jesus.

John 8:21-25
8.21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.8.22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.8.23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.8.24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.