No one knows the day or the hour?

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Oct 7, 2011
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I'm not really surprised by some of the words bandied about on these posts. Liar, Child of Satan the father of lies, blah blah blah. Don't think much of followings forum rules. it is what it is though.

By your definition of Preterism Bible Scribe and Veteran you yourselves are Preterists. After all you believe there are prophecies that have been fulfilled. On the other had the reason I am not a Preterist is because I don't believe what Preterists themselves say Preterism is. They generally believe that all Bible prophecy has come to pass. More specifically that all Bible prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Since I believe that about one-hundred chapters of prophecy are in the process of coming to pass or are to be fullfilled in the future. Why would I ever call myself a Preterist? It would be like calling myself a a futurist just because I believe that some prophesies are still out in the future. So I can't call myself a futurist because I do not believe that all the prophecies that futurists generally claim are for the future. Ditto for dispensationalist. Obviously there are things that could be called dispensations in the Bible. Since I do not believe those things are exactly dispensationalist generally claim they are. I cannot call myself a dispensationalist. Same goes for the other "isms." To throw these titles around is simply an attempt to get peoples noses out of the book their noses should be in and to focus their attention of other things. Do you think your winning the argument because you erect a little straw man and name him "preterist." What I mean by this is that allot of people are reading this thread. In the long run what do you think will affect them more. Someone pointing out that Jesus put a date on his prophecies using Jesus own words or... a couple of guys using words like liar, deceiver, Preterist ect ect?

Now to bring this argument to another level. I have noticed that Preterists are huge on calling 70 A.D. the second coming of the Lord. Of course futurist claim that this second coming is in our future. In fact the term "the second coming" is almost universally used by evangelical\ Pentecostal Christians. I have even heard a couple of evangelical leaders say that it is an essential truth. That is if you do not believe in it, your probably not a real Christian. This is all strange to me, such universal usage of a phrase that is not found anywhere in the New Testament. Yep get out your Bible software and do a search. You will find the word second in front of the word appearance one time. You will not find the word second in front of any of the words translated coming though. The word that is used is simply coming. Not second coming but just plain coming. What you'll find is there are a bunch of these "comings" both in the Old and the New Testaments. Like for instance the Lord came down from heaven at the time of the judgement against Sodom and Gomorrah? Abraham adressed him as Jehovah a dozen times. The apostle John actually addressed this confusion among bleivers about these "comings" of the Lord. This link will take you there.
http://wordservice.o...sics/bb5000.htm
 

veteran

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That is awful strange. To be accused of having a "doctrine of men" because I acknowledge the words of Christ exactly the way he said them just like you underlined them. Then you go on to accuse me of something you are doing not me. Taking the seven seals and seven vials of Revelation and claiming they are referring to Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. I don't claim that, you do! I say those seven seals and seven vials are poured out upon the Roman Empire centuries after the days of the apostles. As stated very clearly in my article about end time prophecy linked below.

http://wordservice.o...hecy/bp3000.htm


On this matter, you are not following what Christ said in Matt.24 and Mark 13. You instead are following the doctrine of men called Preterism, a doctrine which treats all... those signs Christ gave as being already fulfilled back in 69 A.D. Those signs He gave included the sign of His second coming. Therefore, there's no need to try and put perfume on the hog to try and hide its stink.
 

us2are1

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Sep 14, 2011
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I uhh don't think the "Devil" has changed my understanding of the word "generation." Its meaning in the Strong's is pretty clear. The way it is used in the New Testament is just as clear.


Matthew 1:17 (KJV)
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Hey if you want to make the phrases I listed illustrative instead of literal, that is your business. We all have to stand before the judgement seat of Christ to give an account for our deeds and motives. Seems kind of heedless to me though.

Yes it is my business.

I am about the Lords business and His business only.

There are those who have already come before the Judgement seat of Christ and because the Spirit of man has been overtaken by the Spirit of God and the man no longer exists within them and they are found blameless before His throne.

I have told you the truth "that the generation of evil doers is a type" and will continue on until the end of the age when they will be consumed by the lake of fire from heaven dropping on their heads.

The preterists doctrine, as well as the majority of doctrines that have sinners going to heaven and a rapture of evil sinners to rule on gods throne in heaven, are false and will lead those who follow them into the valley of slaughter.

Those who are not preparing the sheep with faith in God alone, will fall.

Ask God for His Spirit and continue to ask until you receive.
 

veteran

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Aug 6, 2010
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I'm not really surprised by some of the words bandied about on these posts. Liar, Child of Satan the father of lies, blah blah blah. Don't think much of followings forum rules. it is what it is though.

There's a difference between people like yourself who follow a doctrine of lies, vs. those who actually create such doctrine. You didn't create the Preterist doctrine, and you're following it still doesn't hide the fact that the doctrine is a lie. That's why I made the distinction of calling the doctrine a lie, and not you personally. So good look on your attempt to turn that hog around against me just to try and make it smell better.


By your definition of Preterism Bible Scribe and Veteran you yourselves are Preterists. After all you believe there are prophecies that have been fulfilled. On the other had the reason I am not a Preterist is because I don't believe what Preterists themselves say Preterism is. They generally believe that all Bible prophecy has come to pass. More specifically that all Bible prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

That's actually funny. Partial Preterists do not believe all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled yet; many of them still believe in a literal return of Christ Jesus, and that return is still... future to us. Does that then make them Futurists? No. So trying to redefine the tenets of the doctrines of Preterism so you can attempt to distance your ideas from it is just another attempt to perfume the hog.


Since I believe that about one-hundred chapters of prophecy are in the process of coming to pass or are to be fullfilled in the future. Why would I ever call myself a Preterist? It would be like calling myself a a futurist just because I believe that some prophesies are still out in the future. So I can't call myself a futurist because I do not believe that all the prophecies that futurists generally claim are for the future. Ditto for dispensationalist. Obviously there are things that could be called dispensations in the Bible. Since I do not believe those things are exactly dispensationalist generally claim they are. I cannot call myself a dispensationalist. Same goes for the other "isms." To throw these titles around is simply an attempt to get peoples noses out of the book their noses should be in and to focus their attention of other things. Do you think your winning the argument because you erect a little straw man and name him "preterist." What I mean by this is that allot of people are reading this thread. In the long run what do you think will affect them more. Someone pointing out that Jesus put a date on his prophecies using Jesus own words or... a couple of guys using words like liar, deceiver, Preterist ect ect?

Now that's a lot of perfume. But it's too late, you've already revealed your stance on the signs Christ gave in Matt.24 as being fulfilled in the days of His Apostles, which is mainstream Full Preterism if the last sign of His coming is also believed to have been fulfilled then, which is also what you admitted. And I already quoted you on it.


Now to bring this argument to another level. I have noticed that Preterists are huge on calling 70 A.D. the second coming of the Lord. Of course futurist claim that this second coming is in our future. In fact the term "the second coming" is almost universally used by evangelical\ Pentecostal Christians. I have even heard a couple of evangelical leaders say that it is an essential truth. That is if you do not believe in it, your probably not a real Christian. This is all strange to me, such universal usage of a phrase that is not found anywhere in the New Testament. Yep get out your Bible software and do a search. You will find the word second in front of the word appearance one time. You will not find the word second in front of any of the words translated coming though. The word that is used is simply coming. Not second coming but just plain coming. What you'll find is there are a bunch of these "comings" both in the Old and the New Testaments. Like for instance the Lord came down from heaven at the time of the judgement against Sodom and Gomorrah? Abraham adressed him as Jehovah a dozen times. The apostle John actually addressed this confusion among bleivers about these "comings" of the Lord. This link will take you there.
http://wordservice.o...sics/bb5000.htm

Another level of perfume? or just another type of better smelling perfume? Your usage of "evangelical\Pentacostal Christians" as such is a political agenda revelation, a revelation about yourself. It's often used in a derogatory manner (like you've done) by those who are against Revealed Doctrine from The Bible instead of Social Doctrine of those who only use The Bible to push their own political agendas.

The idea of 'evangelism' is about preaching The Gospel to those who have not yet heard. It is a foundation doctrine straight from The New Testament Epistles. Anyone who would try to use that idea in a negative fashion reveals their disconnect from Christianity.

I'm not a Pentacostal, though I don't disagree with everything they believe either, since they do adhere to much of Holy Writ. Nor were the early Church fathers Pentacostals, even though they certainly were evangelistic. So that's how far back your attack with that "evangelical\Pentacostal Christianity" negativism has gone.


But the greatest sprinkling of your perfume on the hog you've given so far, is the denial of the idea of a 'second coming' of Christ Jesus per God's Word...

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

Acts 1:11
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.
(KJV)

1Thes 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

II Th 2:1

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
(KJV)

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

Those who don't expect Jesus to return literally, a second time like how He ascended into Heaven, are not going to be happy when He does appear here on earth in Person.
 

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Oct 7, 2011
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There's a difference between people like yourself who follow a doctrine of lies, vs. those who actually create such doctrine. You didn't create the Preterist doctrine, and you're following it still doesn't hide the fact that the doctrine is a lie. That's why I made the distinction of calling the doctrine a lie, and not you personally. So good look on your attempt to turn that hog around against me just to try and make it smell better.




That's actually funny. Partial Preterists do not believe all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled yet; many of them still believe in a literal return of Christ Jesus, and that return is still... future to us. Does that then make them Futurists? No. So trying to redefine the tenets of the doctrines of Preterism so you can attempt to distance your ideas from it is just another attempt to perfume the hog.




Now that's a lot of perfume. But it's too late, you've already revealed your stance on the signs Christ gave in Matt.24 as being fulfilled in the days of His Apostles, which is mainstream Full Preterism if the last sign of His coming is also believed to have been fulfilled then, which is also what you admitted. And I already quoted you on it.




Another level of perfume? or just another type of better smelling perfume? Your usage of "evangelical\Pentacostal Christians" as such is a political agenda revelation, a revelation about yourself. It's often used in a derogatory manner (like you've done) by those who are against Revealed Doctrine from The Bible instead of Social Doctrine of those who only use The Bible to push their own political agendas.

The idea of 'evangelism' is about preaching The Gospel to those who have not yet heard. It is a foundation doctrine straight from The New Testament Epistles. Anyone who would try to use that idea in a negative fashion reveals their disconnect from Christianity.

I'm not a Pentacostal, though I don't disagree with everything they believe either, since they do adhere to much of Holy Writ. Nor were the early Church fathers Pentacostals, even though they certainly were evangelistic. So that's how far back your attack with that "evangelical\Pentacostal Christianity" negativism has gone.


But the greatest sprinkling of your perfume on the hog you've given so far, is the denial of the idea of a 'second coming' of Christ Jesus per God's Word...

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

Acts 1:11
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.
(KJV)

1Thes 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

II Th 2:1

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
(KJV)

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

Those who don't expect Jesus to return literally, a second time like how He ascended into Heaven, are not going to be happy when He does appear here on earth in Person.
As I said the word "second" does not appear before the word "coming" in the New Testament.
 

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Many prophecies in the Bible are dual. In such cases a prophet speaks under inspiration of God and a first fulfillment of the prophecy comes to pass. Then, later, often at the end of the age before the return of Christ, comes a final, ultimate fulfillment.

An excellent example of duality is found in a prediction Joel made about the Holy Spirit: "And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.

And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
"And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord ... I will also gather all nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there..." (Joel:2:28-3:2).

God inspired the apostle Peter to quote from this passage to describe events on the Day of Pentecost, when God founded the Church after Jesus' resurrection (Acts:2:14-21[14]But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:[15]For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

[16]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;[17]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

[18]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:[19]And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

[20]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

[21]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.). Miraculous manifestations of God's power through the Holy Spirit did indeed occur then (verses 1-13). But these were only the first fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. The ultimate fulfillment will come at the time of the end and will involve, among other things, the gathering of the nations to God's judgment in the Valley of Jehoshaphat. This did not occur on the Day of Pentecost. So we see that prophecies can be dual.

In a similar fashion, God inspired many other prophecies with dual meanings. They applied as warnings to the Israelites at that time and as warnings to the modern descendants of those same people. The people of Britain, the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand and the nations of northwest Europe who represent these people today would do well to heed these warnings.


This prophecy will be fullfilled again in the below verse,yet future

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

I have a different take on those two prophecies. In the book of Daniel there are two clearly prophesied "ends," or "end times." One is the end of the old covenant age.The other is the end of the age of the gentiles, the time when those four empires ruled over all of Gods old and new testament saints. The end of the old covenant age is commonly referred to as the "last days." ie the last days of the old covenant age. That is the first prophecy you sighted.
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
That all happened to those to whom Peter was preaching. The Holy Spirit being poured out as you stated. But also:
Blood: Two million dead Jews, and that was just in Judea. Many tens of thousands in other cities outside Judea.
Fire. The cities of Judea and the countryside side burned. Massive brush fires.
Pillars of smoke: From everything burning.
Sun turned into darkness: Ever been in massive fires? I have. That is exactly what happens.
Moon turned to blood. Ditto, exactly what happens with massive fires.
Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: Beleivers did not perish in this great judgement. They heeded Christs words and fled.
In Mount Zion and Jerusalem being deliverance. The New Jerusalem, the mountain that fills the whole earth, the Kingdom of God The illustrative language of Bible Prophecy. Yes that is where deliverance was found for the believers who escaped this.
The remnant: That is what the NT writers referred to themselves as.

Then the next chapter and verse prophesies the judgement against gentiles, Specifically against those four gentile empires. It does this using the illustrative language of Bible prophecy. ( As I understand it anyway.)
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
I know you will not agree because we don't agree on the meaning of this illustrative language which is a huge subject. In my opinion these two verse articulates in a condensed fashion what much of the book of Daniel prophesies.

Yes there are some prophecies that have a double fulfillment. However that is not true of all end time prophecy. If it were then the New testament would directly use similar wording to teach such an important doctrine. I think what you are trying to point out would be better said like this. Most prophecy is in code. It may appear to mean one thing to the generation it is spoken to but actually means something different. That may not be the best way to put it but I tried. I want to make a statement.. Our generation is in the middle of lots of Bible prophecy and there is much yet to be fulfilled. At least in the sense of a big chunk of chapters in the Bible. However that prophecy that we are living in and what lies out ahead is NOT end time prophecy. At least not the end time events the Bible spends so much time speaking about.
 

Edward Palamar

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Nov 1, 2011
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You probably need a different book. ;)

BibleScribe

This is the book - when Christ brought me back into the world, He did so in a prison cell, just as He had allowed me to leave it, and as His angel, about whom is duly written in the Holy Bible, He did this as He said He would, "as a thief in the night" : I took my first breathes again in the deep of the night, c. 4:00 AM. I have met those who though claiming to welcome Christ's return, only reject it, and they are given another chance : http://risen-from-the-dead.forumotion.com/ where those who I have found to be in error can get things straight.
 

BibleScribe

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Jun 17, 2011
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... when Christ brought me back into the world, He did so in a prison cell, ...


I think experiences are wonderful things (being that all thing work to the good for those who love the LORD), but Scripture supercedes experiences. Thus my suggestion to find that foundation.


BibleScribe
 

BibleScribe

Member
Jun 17, 2011
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Just visited the website. It seems we have the final pope and the ressurected John the Baptist on our hands.

http://risen-from-th...ainst-apostates

Edward, you are nothing short of a loose cannon. You are measuring yourself by yourself, condemning all who do not submit to your authority, and speaking as though you were God. You speak by your own authority.


Hi Prentis,

It seems that 1Cor. 14:29 is working perfectly:


1 Cor. 14:26-29
[sup]26[/sup] How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. ... [sup]29[/sup] Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.



BibleScribe :)
 

Prentis

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May 25, 2011
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Yes, but for this, wouldn't we need some prophets recognized by the body?

The case we have on our hand here is not a single case, but there are many such. It's just a rarity to have the self proclamed Christ or apostle come to a forum!
 

BibleScribe

Member
Jun 17, 2011
983
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Yes, but for this, wouldn't we need some prophets recognized by the body?

The case we have on our hand here is not a single case, but there are many such. It's just a rarity to have the self proclamed Christ or apostle come to a forum!

LOLOL,

Scripture is replete with circumstance where a prophet is recognized by his/her works, without their reputation preceding them. And where I haven't seen the self proclamation you describe in this Forum, I've seen it in others.


It seems the greater difficulty is discerning between a teacher and a prophet. For clearly a teacher can be evaluated for their ability to accurately present Scripture (and/or History, as appropriate). However, a prophet can have that ability, given a direct revelation as to the text in question, and they can supercede a text basis and speak by pure revelation.


So one question might be to ask whether any "teachers" in this Forum have had a revelation experience which can be tested as instructed by 1 Cor. 14:26-29? Secondly, can we discern their "truths", independent of the testimony of these so-called "teachers". (Please note that the "prophets" don't judge, -- the people do. And in this there is an expectation that the people are sufficiently equipped to make these types of assessments.)



BibleScribe