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No one knows the day or the hour?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by [email protected], Oct 21, 2011.

  1. WISDOM CALLED

    WISDOM CALLED New Member

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    Jesus of Nazareth is a Son of God and was my divine teacher. He prepared me well for what would lay ahead of me.

    Jesus is the Lute of Lovingkindness that was predicted to come in the day time. in Psalm 92.

    Is that right.

    Well both the OT and the NT tell you that the LORD God asked for mercy not sacrifice.

    Another contradiction for you.




    He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. [sup]40[/sup] For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. [sup]41[/sup] The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. [sup]42[/sup] The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here. Matthew 12


    Jesus Christ said 'Christianity was never born. It is still in the womb'.

    Jesus Christ was the Lute of Lovingkindness mentioned in Psalm 92. However, he knew that the Harp of Faithfulness would come in the last days of the end times.

    Jesus Christ didn't have the skin disease or the gender that was predicted for the one promised to Moses. Nor was he a descendent of Joseph like Moses asked the blessing to be bestowed upon.

    If you were truly a follower of Jesus Christ then you would love the Jewish people as much as he does.
     
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    So Jesus Christ is your divine teacher, but not God, and not your Saviour. That's what you reveal with such statements as, "Jesus of Nazareth is A Son of God and WAS my divine teacher."

    That can only mean you default to Lucifer as your saviour, a false saviour, that is, if you deny that Jesus The Christ is God having come in the flesh through woman's womb.


    Yes that is right, Jesus Christ is God The Saviour, just as God foretold would come through His Old Testament prophets; not a contradiction, but Divine Truth from The Only God The Father and The Son.

    Only a completely ignorant and deceived Christian would even bother listening to a deceiver like you on that matter, and if they do then they deserve to be a part of the deception you're already in, because it means they have chosen lies instead of the simplicity of God's Word.

    Much of the rest of your post is nothing but Luciferian falsehoods.
     
  3. us2are1

    us2are1 Son Of Man

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    You have made up your own religion. Why am I not surprised?




    .
     
  4. NicholasMarks

    NicholasMarks New Member

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    If we read Jesus Christ's teaching, honestly and openly we find that he drew a clear distinction between himself and Almighty God. What he actually taught us is something very profound and that is that he and God viewed things in exactly the same way. They both believed implicitly in righteousness. There is a reason for this. They were both the conveyors of a knowledge which stamps God's authority on the whole universe and everything within it. In otherwords...a knowledge that passeth all our understanding. A knowledge that borders upon a righteous science and this is why we too should respond accurately to the teaching of Jesus and thereby become partakers of the same knowledge...which is the bearer of the promised fruits.

    This includes a prophesy which states that we will endure a time hard to deal with. There will be earthquakes and food shortages in diverse places. All the things, in fact, that global warming warns us of too.

    Perhaps Jesus didn't know the day or the hour because it is linked with an unpredictable time when the planet has just had enough and tips into chaos...Just as modern science predicts. This is obviously a sacred secret known only by Almighty God.
     
  5. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    If we read the many Scriptures Christ's Apostles wrote in quoting Him, 'honestly and openly', we find just the opposite of what you say; Jesus of Nazareth clearly defined Himself as God (John 8; Rev.1; Rev.22). The Father defined The Christ also as God through His prophet Isaiah (Isaiah 7 through 9). Thus you have created by your first statement a probable link to Judaism which believes on God The Father, but not on Jesus Christ as God The Son, God as The Saviour.


    Christ Jesus, nor The Father, taught us to put our trust in the idea of knowledge like science, but instead put our trust in Him through His Son's Blood shed upon the cross for the remission of sins, i.e., The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel of Jesus Christ per God's Word is the REAL Knowledge that passes all understanding.


    Those who overcome and remain to the end will be only those who endure through Christ Jesus. It won't be those who try to endure through man's use of science. As Christ said in Matt.10:39 - "He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for My sake shall find it."



    Rev 3:3
    3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
    (KJV)

    Per what Christ warned to the Church of Sardis, He revealed He does know the hour of His coming, and relayed information about that hour to HIS servants, but not to those who refuse to believe He is God The Saviour.
     
  6. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Dan.



    You are making a mistake when it comes to an interpretation of Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27: These statements are made within their respective contexts:

    Matthew 16:27-17:13
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
    17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
    7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
    8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
    9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
    10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
    12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
    13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
    KJV


    Mark 9:1-13
    9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
    2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
    3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
    4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
    5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
    7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
    9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
    10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
    11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
    13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.
    KJV

    Luke 9:26-36
    26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
    27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
    28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
    29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
    30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
    31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
    32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
    33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
    34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
    35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
    KJV


    See, the transfiguration of our Master Yeshua` the Messiah WAS when "certain of His disciples," namely Kefa, Ya`aqov, and Yochanan (Peter, James, and John), saw the Son of man coming in his kingdom, and the kingdom of God come with power! That's not to say that God's Kingdom actually came at that point, but that they SAW HOW it would come with His coming! However, it was just a short time before He left them and the earth not to return until the Time of the Goyim was complete, until the Jews of Jerusalem could say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem ADONAI," and the desolation would finally be over.

    One thing that Yeshua` was clear about was that His presence was linked to the presence of the Kingdom. That's why He said TO THE P'RUSHIYM (TO THE PHARISEES),...

    Luke 17:20-21
    20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
    KJV

    The Greek word "entos," translated "within" can also be translated "among." You wouldn't really expect Him to say that the Kingdom of God is within the P'rushiym, within the Pharisees, would you?! NO! What He was saying was that they didn't have to look for some special pomp and circumstance to accompany the arrival of the Kingdom; the King was already present among them! Basically, He was saying, "HERE I AM! (Accept me as your King!)"

    Then, you mention the Olivet Discourse FOUR times! Matthew 24:29-32; Mark 13:26-30; and Luke 21:29-33 all combined in the Greek and translated say:

    “However, in those days immediately after that pressure of those days, there will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars: The sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not shine its light, and meteors shall fall out of the sky such that the meteorites shall be fallen out of the sky, and distress of nations and confusion shall be upon the earth; the roaring of the sea and waves! Human beings shall faint from fear from and the dread of those things which are expected to impend the habitable earth. And, for the powers which are in the sky (the cycles of the weather) shall be shaken (disrupted)!

    “Also, then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the sky, and then shall mourn all the tribes of the Land, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the sky, coming in clouds, and coming in a cloud with great strength and great brightness. Then, also, He shall send his messengers with a loud trumpeting sound, and they shall gather His Chosen Ones together out of the four winds from the extremity of the earth to the extremity of the sky to the other limit of the sky. But, when these things begin to come to pass, look up and raise your heads high, for your redemption draws near!”

    And, He spoke a parable to them:

    “But, learn this analogy from the fig tree: Look at the fig tree, even all the trees. When its branch is already green, buds, and shoots forth leaves, you see for yourselves and you know that the summer is now near. Thus, in the same way, when you see all these things come to pass, know that the Kingdom of God is near, upon the threshold!

    “I’m really telling you that this generation will not ever have passed until severally all these things be fulfilled, until the whole group of these things be fulfilled! The sky and the earth shall pass away but my words shall not ever pass away.

    “But with respect to that day and that hour, no one knows [when], not even the messengers from the sky, those in the sky, neither the Son, but only my Father [knows].

    And, Matthew 26:64 and Mark 14:62 are from Yeshua`s trial before the Sanhedrin, and He told them about the return of the King:

    Matthew 26:62-66
    62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63 But Jesus remained silent.
    The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
    64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
    65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?"
    "He is worthy of death," they answered.
    NIV


    Mark 14:60-64
    60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
    Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"
    62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
    63 The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64 "You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"
    They all condemned him as worthy of death.
    NIV


    In this confession, Yeshua` was also letting them know that the Resurrection will occur just prior to the return of the Son of Man to Isra'el.

    The final passage of Scripture you have used is one of the key passages that is often misunderstood, Dani'el 9:24-27:

    Daniel 9:24-27
    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
    KJV


    The "prince that shall come" is the object of a preposition, "of." The subject of the second part of verse 26 is "people." However, the subject of the first part of verse 26 is the "Messiah." So, of the three, only the "Messiah" could be the subject of the additional verbs in verse 27. Therefore the English pronouns "he" in verse 27 refer to the "Messiah," not the "prince that shall come." Therefore, the subject of verse 27 is the "Messiah." It is the "Messiah" that shall confirm the covenant (the Davidic Covenant) with many for one seven. It is the "Messiah" who, in the middle of the seven, shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation (the gift) to cease (by becoming the Final Sacrifice), and it is the "Messiah" who makes it (the city) desolate, even until the consummation (1 Chronicles 28:4-8; 2 Chronicles 13:4-5; 21:7; Psalm 2:6-9; 89:3-4; Isaiah 55:3; Jeremiah 33:19-26; Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22, Matthew 23:37-39, and Hebrews 10:12-22).

    Therefore, HE put the gap in place, not between the 69th and 70th sevens, but between the 69.5th seven and the last half of the last seven! He offered Himself as their King for 3.5 years during His first advent, and was rejected. When He has returned, the last half of the last seven, the final 3.5 years, will be fulfilled.
     
  7. Dan@Wordservice.org

    [email protected] New Member

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    Retrobyter,

    I do not believe I am the one "interpreting" what Jesus said. That is what everyone else is doing on this subject just like you. I am declaring that these scriptures are in no need of interpretation whatsoever. They say and mean exactly what Jesus says. Seems to me everyone else is trying to explain them away "interpret them" so that they fit their beliefs. That is the beauty of our Lords words though, they doesn't twist very easy. Man is there some twisting and turning to say he does not mean "that" generation from all the teachers here.



    But.... if Jesus's own words don't cause red flags to go up in your heart regarding your beliefs then who am I to expect my words to cause you to consider that maybe you really don't have it all figured out.
     
  8. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Dan.

    Well, that was a pretty terse answer to just one of my points. Look, EVERY man - EVERY human being - "interprets" what He reads. People don't think in a particular language. That's why there are so many languages and dialects around the globe. People think in pictures and memories and imagine word-pictures. That's why the passage of time can be so ... funky ... in dreams! No matter what your primary language is, you must first go through the process of interpreting what you are reading into thoughts that make sense to you.

    So, when we read Yeshua`s words in the Scriptures, those words are translated into certain pictures, linked memories, and images within our minds and we "make sense" of those words. However, what "makes sense" to you may not have "made sense" to those who were actually LISTENING to Yeshua`s words in Hebrew (before they were translated into Greek)! The whole process of language study is to ferret out the exact "sense" that Yeshua` was trying to convey. We must go through this process if we want to understand truly what Yeshua` was telling them (and us vicariously).

    While it is obvious that Yeshua` "meant what He said," and "said exactly what He meant to say," language translation is NOT one-to-one! He didn't USE English words to say what He said! He didn't even use the GREEK words in the oldest manuscripts we have that record what He said! You sound like a few KJV-only people I've known: "Well, if the King James Version was good enough for the Apostle Paul, it's good enough for me!" Absurd, right? Same thing here: Don't think that the English words you are reading are what Yeshua` actually said!

    So, when we come to the Greek word "genea," which was INTERPRETED and TRANSLATED as "generation," does it, in fact, mean what we mean when we use the word "generation" today? Why look at this last sentence I wrote: Even when I wrote the word "genea," that was a transliteration of the Greek word spelled gamma-epsilon-nu-epsilon-alpha. (I don't have a very good Greek font, nor do I trust that any Greek font I would use would be conveyed properly in my post. Therefore, I transliterate Greek words into English spellings.)

    Why, even when we look up the Greek word "genea" in a Greek-to-English dictionary such as the one in the back of Strong's Concordance, we find...

    NT:1074 genea (ghen-eh-ah'); from (a presumed derivative of) NT:1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):
    KJV - age, generation, nation, time.
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


    And, if we follow the link to NT:1085, we find...

    NT:1085 genos (ghen'-os); from NT:1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):
    KJV - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


    We can even follow one more link to NT:1096:

    NT:1096 ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee); a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"- erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):
    KJV - arise, be assembled, be (-come, -fall, -haveself), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


    So, sometimes it would help to use something else like Englishman's Concordance that will list for us every location in the Greek New Testament where the word "genea" is found:

    One will find that the word occurred 43 times in the New Testament. And, of those 43 matches, four of them came from the conclusion of Matthew's geneology of Yeshua`:

    Matthew 1:17
    17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
    KJV


    And, while that may APPEAR to be how we use the word "generations" today, if you go back to the Old Testament and actually COUNT the people in each of these lineage records, you will find MORE than just three groups of fourteen! Why? Because that is NOT what is meant by the word "generation!" If you will look up the rest of the 43 matches in the New Testament, you will begin to get a glimmer of how the word is different: It is talking about the "rightness" of that group of people or the "attitude" of that group of people! The kings of northern Isra'el were all considered "bad" kings, doing what was evil in God's sight, but the southern kingdom of Y'hudah (Judah) would toggle back and forth between "good" kings and "bad" kings, kings doing what was right in God's sight and kings doing what was evil in God's sight! THIS is a "generation!"

    The "wicked generation" which Yeshua` had to deal with in the first century HAS NEVER GONE AWAY! The Jews, particularly those of Jerusalem, have YET to accept Yeshua` as God's Messiah, God's Anointed to be King, God's CHOICE for their King! Therefore, they have yet to say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" (Psalm 118:26 quoted by Yeshua` in Matthew 23:39 meaning "Welcome, Comer on the authority (in the name) of Yah!" and translated as "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD!")

    So, read Matthew 24:34 again in that light:

    Matt 24:34
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    KJV


    Makes a difference, doesn't it?
     
  9. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Jesus meant what He said, and He was speaking of the specific generation that would see those signs He gave in the Matt.24 chapter.

    Since the very last... sign He gave in that chapter was the sign of His SECOND coming and gathering of His saints, His RETURN to this earth, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand He was speaking of the last generation on this earth, the generation that would actually experience... His second coming.
     
  10. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, veteran.

    And around and around we go. You, too, are back to the "Jesus meant what He said" argument; Did you read what I said above? If so, it is obvious to me that more arguments from me saying the same thing would just be "whipping a dead horse." Yes, He WAS speaking of the specific generation that would see those signs, but that "generation" has been with us for a couple of millennia now. So, believe what you will. We are really saying the same thing from two different angles. It may not take a "rocket scientist," but to read the Scriptures correctly DOES take someone who loves His Word and will take the time to study it out.

    The thing you're NOT getting from such a stance is that it was/is the Jewish population in Isra'el, particularly in Jerusalem, who are the ones who must say "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH (ADONAI)."
     
  11. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Problem with that view you have I underlined is that it is completely un-Biblical.

    Reason being, it denies the bodily Second Coming of Jesus Christ with a literal gathering of His saints to Him as written. Thus, we definitely are NOT saying the same thing from two different angles.

    In Matthew 24, Christ was not speaking about the generation of His Apostles, but about the FINAL generation on the earth that would experience the end of this present world on the day of The LORD, an event that did not occur during the days of His Apostles, nor has it yet occurred today. So no sense in arguing that point, since it is well written of in God's Word and very easy to understand.


    No, Christ's second coming back to this earth how He ascended to Heaven is not dependent upon the Jews saying that. Instead, the Jews saying that is dependent upon Christ's appearance back to this earth at His second coming. You've got the Biblical requirement backwards.
     
  12. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, veteran.

    You're not listening (or reading) clearly: I was saying that the "wicked and adulterous generation" with whom Yeshua` had to contend in the first century is STILL the same "generation" that is with us today! They are not willing to see Yeshua` as the Messiah God promised, yet! Furthermore, the "signs" that Yeshua` were saying they would see BEGAN in the past! They will continue until the sun is eclipsed black as sackcloth of goats' hair, the moon is at least partially eclipsed at the same time and becomes red as blood, and the stars (the meteorites) fall from the sky to the earth such that it looks like 1 out of every 3 stars are falling to the earth! We're talking about a near miss with a comet or asteroid!

    It is HARDLY "un-Biblical!" In fact, I am struggling not to take personal offense to that claim! It does NOT deny "the bodily Second Coming of Jesus Christ with a literal gathering of His saints to Him as written!" (Where'd you come up with THAT fiction?!)




    Not at all! BE CAREFUL on this one! Yeshua` Himself said,...

    Matt 23:37-39
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
    KJV


    How can you argue with what Yeshua` said would happen?! Be careful that you're not found to be calling Yeshua` a liar. Which is contingent upon which? Are their words continent upon His return, or is His return contingent upon their words? In today's English, He said, "You shall not see me from now on UNTIL you shall say, 'Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHVH.'" So, which has to happen first, according to Yeshua`?

    If you're basing your point of view upon Zechariah 12:7-14, that's not the same thing! The chain of events can still be (1) the Jews say to a Yeshua` they barely know about but they accept He is their promised Messiah, "Welcome, Comer on YHVH'S authority," (2) Yeshua` returns, and (3) the reality of what their ancestors have done hits them between the eyes!

    Zechariah 12:7-14
    7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
    8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
    9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
    11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
    12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
    13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
    14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
    KJV


    Furthermore, tie Romans 11:7-29 to this passage in Zechariah:

    Romans 11:7-29
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (chosen ones) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead (RESURRECTION)?
    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And theyalso, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    KJV


    God WANTS to rescue His people Isra'el! If He has grafted us contrary to nature into the Olive Tree of His Kingdom, He will CERTAINLY graft Isra'el into His Kingdom! It's not for anything that they have done that He loves them! He loves them because of His love for their ancestors! They are the patriarchs' CHILDREN!!! They are FAMILY!!!

    What did Yochanan say in 1 John 5:1?

    1 John 5:1
    5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah) is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    KJV


    Don't get the cart before the horse, as so many others have! The Jews have to admit that Yeshua` was from God as God's Messiah - God's Anointed - God's CHOICE for Isra'el's King - and so cry out to Him BEFORE He will return! That's why the mission of the Messianic Jews is so important! They are trying "to make ready a people prepared for the LORD!" (Luke 1:17)
     
  13. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    No one knows the day or the hour? hmm

    The bookstore shelves are full of tomes that predict otherwise. Dogmas abound. Christian folks who are otherwise kind and forgiving will hold passionately to the empty doctrine of the Rapture, which if followed to its semi-logical extreme, predicts the exact time. Not that it's ever worked, mind you, but that doesn't stop self-styled prophets from declaring it.

    Friendships have often been sacrificed at the altar of an unchangeable ideology. Is it worth it? Apparently to some it is.

    There are core values in Christianity and there are perepheral values. Perepheral values and dogma are not necessary to salvation, to growth in faith and to our hope of eternal life in Christ. There's an account in Acts where Paul talks about folks with ears that always itch to hear something new. Seems like that's what's really going on, except none of the beamer adherents will admit to it.

    The bottom line is that holding on to unnecessary fictious dogma is dangerous. How?

    Some modern theologians have been stating that one of the reasons for the decline of the church in the west is the lack of solid Christian literature. Instead of literary meat and drink, the shelves are full of spiritual swill. The reason for it is that this pig food is secularized churchianity with a touch of Star Trek evacuation mentality. This stuff sells and sells well.

    Money talks and in an economy where the publishing business is depressed, anything that sells is gold. In this case, fool's gold. Today, it's quite difficult for solid Christian theology to make it through the publication process onto store shelves. The church is addicted to the Christian version of Twilight (Left Behind & Late Great Planet series) as well as all its spin offs, including the stuff put out by popular heretics (Bell & Osteen) and apostates (Swaggart, Copeland, Van Impe, etc.). Caveat Emptor has never been more apt.

    No one knows the day or the hour. The Christian admonishment for the past couple thousand years is that despite not knowing we should be ready. Always ready and prepared. Where are the lengthy admonishments to live soberly and justly? Let us put away pointless childish arguments and live for Christ so that if He tarry a thousand years more, we shall be able to meet Him at the end of our private time with confidence in His salvation, not grocery store publications and predictions.
     
  14. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    That's not the context of how He used the idea of a "generation" in Matt.24:34. I'm well aware of the different definitions for the word generation.


    Antiochus IV served as a sign of past history for the "abomination of desolation" type event, yet... Antiochus IV was not the one Christ was pointing to, since Antiochus had already been dead for around 200 years at that point of Christ's Olivet Discourse. One could even say the previous destruction of Jerusalem by the king of Babylon in Jeremiah's days was also a past sign for the destruction upon Jerusalem that Jesus spoke of for later while upon the Mount of Olives. But those events of past history were not the 'signs' Christ was giving in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

    God used the "day of the Lord" phrase about destructions in Jeremiah's days per Jeremiah 46, while Apostles Paul and Peter both used that "day of the Lord" phrase for Christ's future second coming (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). Thus, God has given us Biblical blueprints for coming events before. The Roman's destruction of 69 A.D. Jerusalem was not the first time Jerusalem was destroyed by an invading army. Thus the 'signs' Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 are ultimately meant for the end of this present world within the LAST... generation living on this earth.

    So whether one wants to treat the signs Christ gave there as starting in past history, that doesn't negate the application of ALL those 'signs' for the very end of this present world in final. Many prophecies in the OT prophets were not completely fulfilled per history, some of their parameters left unfulfilled. An example of this with the destruction of Jerusalem per the Matt.24 - Mark 13 example was with not one stone standing on top of another. Yet the huge stones of the Western Wall of the old temple complex are still standing today, revealing not all parameters of that 'sign' was fulfilled by the Roman general Titus.


    It is un-Biblical, because of HOW you're trying to apply that Matt.24:34 usage of the word 'genea' ("generation"). You're trying to apply to the generation at His first coming, and then their offspring, up to today. That's not how... Jesus used the term...


    Matt 24:33-37
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Christ was pointing to the 'specific' generation that would see ALL THOSE THINGS FULFILLED, i.e, ALL those signs He gave, the final one being His second coming. Put simply, ALL those signs are to be fulfilled in ONE single generation, not spread out over many generations like you're trying to say. The following verses after that continue with that very same context...


    Matt.24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    (KJV)



    How do I know I'm correct with what I said on that? Because of who is being prepared to come to Jerusalem PRIOR to Christ's second coming (Matt.24:23-26). Yet, we already have an example of that "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of The Lord" from the Psalms...


    Matt 21:8-11
    8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
    9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, "Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest."
    10 And when He was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, "Who is this?"
    11 And the multitude said, "This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."
    (KJV)

    Jesus The Christ had already appeared to His Apostles prior to His entering into Jerusalem. John the Baptist had already prepared the way. Yet the unbelieving Jews refused Christ Jesus and John. God is going to send His prophet to prepare the way for Christ's second coming in our future also, and those unbelieving Jews of that Matt.23:37-39 group will refuse that preparing the way just as their fathers did with John the Baptist! Jesus was speaking to unbelieving Jews in the Matt.23 example, certainly not the people who welcomed Christ at His first coming to Jerusalem.


    Nope. Those unbelieving Jews will say, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of The Lord" after Jesus appears as King to reign over them, and they will bow to Him. They will not be expecting Him, but will have already received another in His place when He returns.



    Still no. Jesus was speaking to those who slew God's prophets, which certainly were not of the people of Israel that sought Him. If you don't understand this, then you may need to go back to Genesis and start again in OT history involving the crept in unawares.


    God is no respecter of persons. I suspect (and hope) that many of the unbelieving Jews today will believe on Christ Jesus God The Saviour when their blindness is removed. But I don't expect many of the "synagogue of Satan" false Jews will, for those are the main one's responsible who killed God's prophets, and who Jesus was especially speaking to in Matt.23. Many of those are not even of Israelite origin.


    That passage from John is a determing factor for God's people vs. those who have the spirit of antichrist. The idea of 'The Christ' per the OT prophets points to God as The Saviour, meaning Jesus of Nazareth is God come in the flesh, which is what His Name Immanuel is about (with us is God - Isa.7 & 9).


    Those of Judah born of God will be waiting for Christ's second coming, and those are like the people of Mark 11 that spread their garments and branches in the way for Jesus Christ entering into Jerusalem at His first coming. But the false Jews, who say they are Jews and lie, and are not, are the ones Jesus was speaking to in Matt.23. Those will not... be expecting Him, but will be caught bowing to another in Christ's place prior to His second coming. So I'm definitely not getting the cart before the horse about that.
     
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  15. us2are1

    us2are1 Son Of Man

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    The day is 1335 days from the time the two witnesses begin their ministry. The hour? I don't know.



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