No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[Timtofly]

God Does Declare (The End) Read It Again

There Will Be No Millennium On This Eartg As you Claim, When Jesus Christ Returns Its (The End)

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

(Then Cometh The End) As (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

There has been 1991 years between Christ the firstfruits, and His Coming.

There will be 1000 years between His coming and then cometh the end. Death is cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Truth7t7]

You deny God's Holy Day, set apart as Holy, without sin, which John points out is 1000 years, and immediately following the Second Coming.

At No Point Does John Teach A Literal 1,000 Year Kingdom On This Earth, A False Claim

Your living in a "Virtual" fairy tale dream, the heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" by fire at the Lords return, will you continue to bury your head in the sand and pretend as if the scripture below dosent exists?

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Truth7t7]

There has been 1991 years between Christ the firstfruits, and His Coming.

There will be 1000 years between His coming and then cometh the end. Death is cast into the Lake of Fire.

Your claim is "False", there is no 1,000 year Kingdom between verses 23-24 below, adding to scripture is a scary thing to do, "Beware"!

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

(Then Cometh The End) As (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Timtofly Adds A 1,000 Year Kingdom On Earth Here, "Beware"!

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Oseas]

By the Word of GOD - the Word is GOD - where or in what place do you imagine will be the Kingdom preached by the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom through JESUS, by whom GOD makes the worlds?

What is your understanding or interpretation of Revelation 11:v.15 and 18? - And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD (Devil's world) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

Why will the nations be angry? Verse 18: - And the nations were (will be) angry, and thy wrath is come (God's wrath), and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged (the Judgment is now in the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) , and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.


Who is the GOD of the earth? Revelation 11:v.4 .

How do you interpret Revelation 5:v.9-10AKJV -
9 Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED US to GOD by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 and HAS MADE US UNTO OUR GOD kings and priests: and we shall reign ON THE EARTH. (What does it "reign ON THE EARTH" mean?

Isaiah 40:v.21-23

21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22 It is he - GOD - that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.


GOD warned: There will be Judgment by His Word and severe punishments: Isaiah 8:v.20-22 among several other Scriptures

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (There will be consequences)

21 And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward.

22 And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

The Word is GOD and will fulfil LITERALLY according the Scriptures quoted above


Be careful, be cautious, or get ready

 

[Randy Kluth]

Read the kingdom parables by Jesus in the Gospels, then place them in the GT, while Christ is on earth for the second time.

Many have taught they are for the church. They are for His earthly physical ministry.

I'm not sure I'm following you, except that you seem to be applying Dispensationalism, dividing Israel from the Church. I do recognize that Christ ministered, the 1st time, to Israel while the Law was still in effect. But I do see the parables Jesus told in his earthly ministry as applicable to the Church, and not just Israel. It is a simple matter of removing the Law, as a system, and replacing it with Christ's NT system. And then we simply expand the parties to which Jesus' message was intended to include the many nations of the Church. What applied to Israel applies, in principle, to the Church, though apart from the Law of Moses.

The Millennium is the ultimate result of the end of Daniel's 70 weeks. Read Revelation 10:6-7. The end of the 7th Trumpet is the end of the last hour of the last day of the last week of the 70th week of years. The 7th Trumpet cannot stop until the hour-long battle of Armageddon, where the last 10 governments rule as one for one hour. That is their rule, being destroyed by Jesus Christ. Yes during the 6th vial the 3 spirits do go out, but during the whole 42 months, the nations have been rounding up and beheading those who refuse to recieve the mark. They have been moving closer to Jerusalem to avoid dealing with God on the throne, sitting in open judgment since the 6th Seal.

I'm not sure I disagree with a lot of that except I believe Daniel's 70th Week was fulfilled and completed at the Cross. I tend to see events like the Trumpets and the Bowls of Wrath more as symbols than an itinerary of when certain things happen. They just express, overall, the fact that the wicked world is coming to an end, with the defeat of Antichrist. I don't know that there's any particular chronological sequence--just that it climaxes at the end of 3.5 year period, after nations are gathered together to Armageddon.

This is just the leftovers. There should not even be a 42 month period. Either the winepress in Revelation 14, or the battle of Armageddon will totally remove Adam's flesh and blood. No mortals left as most put it.

I can't agree with that. Dan 7 and Dan 12 explain that it will be for a "time, times and half a time," aka 3.5 years. There is only one period of 3.5 years, and it has nothing to do with Daniel's "70th Week," which was completed at the Cross.

I use corruptible flesh, because Paul taught that. Glorified is putting on immortality, not becoming immortal. We are sons of God, we do not become God. Our spirit is a robe of light. We put on our spirit from God. We do not put on God. We are dead to our spirit in dead corruptible flesh. We have the Holy Spirit as credit, until the day we are glorified and become sons in the full image of God. The Holy Spirit dwells in us. Our spirit wraps around an incorruptible body.

I think you're trying to insert too many distinctions into our glorification. We do obtain immortality, and we do become immortal. There is no distinction here. We do not, as you say, become God. But we certainly partake of the divine nature, as the Scriptures say.

Those on earth will have sin free incorruptible bodies. But not glorified. They will have biological sin free incorruptible offspring. The first Generation cannot die nor disobey. Their offspring will have freedom to rebel, but that does not make them mortal nor sinners. Deliberately breaking the rule of the iron rod will be instant Death. It will not be common nor taught to actively disobey, like all the loopholes in human government. But the sons of God will not intermingle with those on earth like what happened before the Flood. Nor will Satan be an issue to deal with.

Sounds strange--non-glorified, sin-free incorruptible bodies, that continue to mate? Sorry, sounds like sci fi! If the Church has never taught this, it's unlikely that God chose to only show it to you!

This is a Lord's Day set apart and holy unto God. Israel was to Remember the first Lord's Day. Genesis 2 explains the Day of the Lord, Adonai God. The first Lord's Day. It was the first 1000 years set apart and Holy, before Satan was allowed to rebel, and before the Garden of Eden was even planted, and an unnamed son of God placed in this Paradise.

Why humans forgot the first Lord's Day may be the same reason they deny the last Lord's Day.

You sound like a Gnostic. They created scenarios out of their own imagination. Where do you get this information from about a 1000 year day *before Satan was allowed to rebel?*

 

[Randy Kluth]

The world is going to change. Baptism of fire is not the same as by Flood. With all the symbolism given, water will be scarce when all is said and done. The world is not changed because the church is leaving. The world is changed because God on the throne will be physically present and not a single human will have the excuse of not knowing God.

"Baptism by Fire" is a term indicating a destructive, or dangerous experience. It is like going through a storm to obtain a particular goal. When Christ comes back he will certainly change the world. What I don't buy is a Pretrib Rapture of millions of Christians, while the world just sort of goes, "ho hum, what's next? I guess those guys just disappeared. Now let's move on to worship the Beast."

 

[Randy Kluth]

The church is neither Jew nor Greek, ethnic. The church is not a religion. Religion attempts to explain God. The church knows God, no explanation necessary.

Here are two very irrational statements, which at least should give you pause.
1) Being Jewish is not an ethnic thing.
2) The Church has nothing to do with religion.

No statement could be more absurd, at least on its face. Sorry, I'm not buying...

Why would a part of Christ join with a harlot or religion that sets up human ideals?

Paradise was planted for Adam and his family.

The question is why did the other sons of God give up their inheritances on earth.

Sorry but the 144k are more elect than the original disciples and the sheep. They are not representative, they are the sole sealed group of disciples. The Millennium is going to go big. Think of 7 billion people after 1991 years and only 12 disciples. Jesus is starting out with 144k and there will be 100's of billions in only 1000 years. There will be people that God chooses during the GT from every nation. The 144k are just the leaders of an even larger crowd. Compare the 12 to the 70. 6 times 12 is 72. 6 times 144k is 864k we are talking harvest numbers of those who will shed Adam's biological corruptible flesh.

Perhaps up to 1 or 2 billion to start the Millennium. No where are we told the amount of the sheep and the wheat, which is symbolic of Israel and the rest of the Nations elected by God to populate the earth in the Millennium. Not to mention those who may actually be beheaded during the last 42 months if the church fails to bring in a harvest.

When Jesus mentioned the Sheep and the Goats, he was speaking while still under the old dispensation of Law, when Israel was the only chosen nation. That's all different today. I agree that in the Millennium we will have millions of Christians. However, they don't just start with Israel. Jesus at that time was only speaking of Israel. In the book of Revelation Jesus speaks of the rest of the nations, who will also have believers.

Let's stop placing Israel over other nations. That only happened in the OT era, when the rest of the world was only pagan.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In the OD Jesus is bringing the angels with the trumpets.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus first, angels and Trumpet soundings second.

I see them all as simultaneous. These things cannot all be mentioned at the same time. Listing different elements separately do not always suggest a chronological sequence. Sometimes it's just a matter of elaborating, adding details about a single event.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Judaism was not what collapsed in 70AD. Judaism is a strong religion today, just like so called Christianity, or Hinduism. All man made religions part of the end time religious beast. It was God's OT economy that was over when the veil in the temple was rent by God on the Cross. It was over at the Cross. The momentum of ideology came to a halt in 70AD. The now defunct economy had no more excuse to continue. The temple should have been abandoned no later than Pentecost. It was Herod's dynasty and some Herods kept it going past the expiration date. Theology will be the "Herod" of this generation and will keep trying to forge a path after the Lamb and God are physically seen by all on earth.

There is, of course, such a thing as "dead, wooden theology, without spirituality and without virtue." If all we're doing is teaching a class to impart information, we're missing the boat. If we're trying to teach doctrine while removing supernatural elements from it, then we're missing the boat.

But let's not mix up bad theology with good theology! Make no mistake, the Scriptures are all about theology. It presents theological systems, the Law in the OT and Christianity in the NT. These are definitely theological systems!

Gnostics have always tried to separate out a mysterious subjective spirituality from black and white Bible Doctrine. They don't want to be subject to the *truth* of Scripture, but instead prefer to interpret it their own way by inserting spiritual "truths" of their own making. No, theology is good, and doctrine is designed to expose imposters who make up their own spiritual "truth."

When I said Judaism died at the Cross, it seems you're just saying the same thing. Obviously, I'm not saying Judaism as a religion ended. I'm just saying its validity with God went the way of the world. It died *spiritually.*

Yes, Judasim, as a practice, continued for another 40 years after the Cross. However, it was just a memory, and it was just a ritual--it was not spiritual, anymore, in the eyes of God.

Even when the temple was removed, Judaism continued. However, it died spiritually at the Cross. Irrationally, it has kept being practiced even without a temple, a priesthood, and animal sacrifices. But that happened also during the Babylonian Captivity, and therefore, the Jews justify this now-empty religion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

People confuse the words in the verses.

Many come out of great tribulation. It does not say the great tribulation. This is the last 1991 years.

The next one is: "the tribulation of those days". This is, again, not the Great Tribulation. Those days are the last of the time the church will be around up until the 5th Seal.

Christ is on earth, not the church during the GT, the Trumpets and Thunders. Trumpets are calling Israel to judgment, sheep and goats.

Thunders are the harvest of the Nations after Israel is judged.

Then and only then will Satan be considered to any time, if the final harvest comes up short. Not because God or Christ failed. It is because the church failed and remained apostate instead of repenting, turning from wickedness, and seeking God's face. Remember the cry will be: hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne. Too late to seek God's face after the 6th Seal, the Second Coming, the church removed from the vineyard. Now is the time to seek God's face, so He can heal the Nations. Soon all will want to hide from that face.

That is the biggest reason the church is not here. It clearly says every single human will want to hide. The 144k have not been sealed yet. After they are sealed, they will not be afraid. The church is already sealed, raptured, changed, and glorified. No need to be sealed nor harvested after the 6th Seal for the church. It is just not fear or being afraid. It is knowing who makes sinners fearful and afraid, even to the point of death. The church is to seek God's face, not let sin get in the way.

I don't understand this, nor do I see in taught in the Bible, nor in Church history. Christ is here during the Great Tribulation? The Church will not be here? I don't understand your theological system, since I don't see it defined anywhere?

 

[Timtofly]

At No Point Does John Teach A Literal 1,000 Year Kingdom On This Earth, A False Claim

Your living in a "Virtual" fairy tale dream, the heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" by fire at the Lords return, will you continue to bury your head in the sand and pretend as if the scripture below dosent exists?

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

There is not any 1000 years for you. I agree. You claim to know your own fate. Most of us Trust in God.

 

[Timtofly]

Your claim is "False", there is no 1,000 year Kingdom between verses 23-24 below, adding to scripture is a scary thing to do, "Beware"!

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

(Then Cometh The End) As (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Timtofly Adds A 1,000 Year Kingdom On Earth Here, "Beware"!

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

John places the 1000 year Kingdom there. Why are you confusing me with John? John was born in the first century. I was born in the last century.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not sure I'm following you, except that you seem to be applying Dispensationalism, dividing Israel from the Church. I do recognize that Christ ministered, the 1st time, to Israel while the Law was still in effect. But I do see the parables Jesus told in his earthly ministry as applicable to the Church, and not just Israel. It is a simple matter of removing the Law, as a system, and replacing it with Christ's NT system. And then we simply expand the parties to which Jesus' message was intended to include the many nations of the Church. What applied to Israel applies, in principle, to the Church, though apart from the Law of Moses.



I'm not sure I disagree with a lot of that except I believe Daniel's 70th Week was fulfilled and completed at the Cross. I tend to see events like the Trumpets and the Bowls of Wrath more as symbols than an itinerary of when certain things happen. They just express, overall, the fact that the wicked world is coming to an end, with the defeat of Antichrist. I don't know that there's any particular chronological sequence--just that it climaxes at the end of 3.5 year period, after nations are gathered together to Armageddon.



I can't agree with that. Dan 7 and Dan 12 explain that it will be for a "time, times and half a time," aka 3.5 years. There is only one period of 3.5 years, and it has nothing to do with Daniel's "70th Week," which was completed at the Cross.



I think you're trying to insert too many distinctions into our glorification. We do obtain immortality, and we do become immortal. There is no distinction here. We do not, as you say, become God. But we certainly partake of the divine nature, as the Scriptures say.



Sounds strange--non-glorified, sin-free incorruptible bodies, that continue to mate? Sorry, sounds like sci fi! If the Church has never taught this, it's unlikely that God chose to only show it to you!



You sound like a Gnostic. They created scenarios out of their own imagination. Where do you get this information from about a 1000 year day *before Satan was allowed to rebel?*

It is not dispensational. You make it dispensational by applying them to the church as much as not applying the parables to the church. The parables apply to Christ being on the earth.

Exodus 20 tells Israel to remember why there is a Lord's Day.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

These verses use the term Adonai, Lord. They do not use the term Word of God. Genesis 2:3-4

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Verse 4 declares generations which is plural, not just a single generation. It happens in a Lord's Day, not a 24 hour Day. The symbolic term Lord's Day is in reference to 1000 years. Just like the coming Day of the Lord is 1000 years, and begins with the cleansing fire of God's wrath.

Moses was told to Remember what that Lord's Day was. Moses even included where to find and understand that Lord's Day. It is understood from the creation account itself.

 

[Timtofly]

"Baptism by Fire" is a term indicating a destructive, or dangerous experience. It is like going through a storm to obtain a particular goal. When Christ comes back he will certainly change the world. What I don't buy is a Pretrib Rapture of millions of Christians, while the world just sort of goes, "ho hum, what's next? I guess those guys just disappeared. Now let's move on to worship the Beast."

When the dust settles all the world will notice God on the throne, and the Lamb sitting on a throne in Jerusalem. That the church is gone will be the least of their worries. Yes many will want to die, who now have loved one's gone. They will know why they are gone. They will still reject God and allow Satan to decieve them.

 

[Timtofly]

Here are two very irrational statements, which at least should give you pause.
1) Being Jewish is not an ethnic thing.
2) The Church has nothing to do with religion.

No statement could be more absurd, at least on its face. Sorry, I'm not buying....

Jewish is being of Judah, a human, ethnic. Judaism is the religion of the Jews. People are adopted into human families all the time. Two separate words, with two separate meanings.

Not all who embrace Judaism are Jews. Many converts. Not all Jews embrace Judaism. There are non-religious Jews. Some are converts to other religions, agnostic, or atheist.

Celebrating Christmas does not make one a Christian. Celebrating OT feasts, does not make one a Jew, nor a convert to Judaism. Being born in a so called "Christian" nation does not make one an ethnic "offspring of Christ" nor convert to any religion, not even Christianity. Some attempt to baptize infants in an ethnic or ritual ceremony. That is useless, nonsense.

That is why it is a spiritual birth and has nothing to do with physical ethnicity nor conversion. It is an individual choice, without any coercion.

When Jesus mentioned the Sheep and the Goats, he was speaking while still under the old dispensation of Law, when Israel was the only chosen nation. That's all different today. I agree that in the Millennium we will have millions of Christians. However, they don't just start with Israel. Jesus at that time was only speaking of Israel. In the book of Revelation Jesus speaks of the rest of the nations, who will also have believers.

Let's stop placing Israel over other nations. That only happened in the OT era, when the rest of the world was only pagan.

So you want the Word of God to just stop, and let personal understanding take over one's mind?

 

[Timtofly]

I see them all as simultaneous. These things cannot all be mentioned at the same time. Listing different elements separately do not always suggest a chronological sequence. Sometimes it's just a matter of elaborating, adding details about a single event.

The OD is not in chronological order. Revelation is. Many claim The OD is chronological and change Revelation to fit the OD.

The only part of the OD John pulls from is the actual Second Coming of Christ with the angels. John does not define the sheep and goats, the wheat and tares. John was not even allowed to write down and include the 7 Thunders into Revelation.

 

[Timtofly]

There is, of course, such a thing as "dead, wooden theology, without spirituality and without virtue." If all we're doing is teaching a class to impart information, we're missing the boat. If we're trying to teach doctrine while removing supernatural elements from it, then we're missing the boat.

But let's not mix up bad theology with good theology! Make no mistake, the Scriptures are all about theology. It presents theological systems, the Law in the OT and Christianity in the NT. These are definitely theological systems!

Gnostics have always tried to separate out a mysterious subjective spirituality from black and white Bible Doctrine. They don't want to be subject to the *truth* of Scripture, but instead prefer to interpret it their own way by inserting spiritual "truths" of their own making. No, theology is good, and doctrine is designed to expose imposters who make up their own spiritual "truth."

When I said Judaism died at the Cross, it seems you're just saying the same thing. Obviously, I'm not saying Judaism as a religion ended. I'm just saying its validity with God went the way of the world. It died *spiritually.*

Yes, Judasim, as a practice, continued for another 40 years after the Cross. However, it was just a memory, and it was just a ritual--it was not spiritual, anymore, in the eyes of God.

Even when the temple was removed, Judaism continued. However, it died spiritually at the Cross. Irrationally, it has kept being practiced even without a temple, a priesthood, and animal sacrifices. But that happened also during the Babylonian Captivity, and therefore, the Jews justify this now-empty religion.

Judaism was only and still is a man made religion. It had nothing to do with being God's theological "vehicle" of truth. Christianity is only a man made religion. It is not God's Word either. Only God's Testament both Old and New is God's means of dealing directly with humanity. Pointing out the truth of God's Word does not have to be doctrine, theology, nor dogma. That is an attempt to start a man made religion. That is how Islam and Mormans came about. Christianity and Judaism came about just by living God's Word. Other religions tend to adopt God's Word into their cultural understanding. Many of the early church fathers considered theologians came out of other religions, and their conversion experience and how they related to Christianity became their theology and was introduced into the religion as accepted theology.

Not my intention at all. Probably was not their intention either. History happened and history cannot be changed with a do over. Did Satan purposely send in agents? I doubt it could be proven as fact. Does any one today think they can prove any from Augustine to Luther and Calvin were actually wolves in sheep's clothing?

 

[Timtofly]

I don't understand this, nor do I see in taught in the Bible, nor in Church history. Christ is here during the Great Tribulation? The Church will not be here? I don't understand your theological system, since I don't see it defined anywhere?

Show me one verse were the harvest was done remotely from Heaven. Jesus is always the one present at harvest time. Even when God left the vineyard and let others be the stewards, God returned to be present at certain times of accountability. This is the end of the harvest from Adam's punishment handed out from God. There is no more redemption in regards to Adam's family. The Millennium is not about Adam's family. It is about God's chosen elect who rule with Christ for 1000 years, in resurrected bodies. God does not reintroduce sin into the world. This time is sin free and Holy, and Christ is ruling from Jerusalem. The farmer is always present at the final harvest. Christ will remain as ruler over those resurrected from the final harvest. They will have offspring. The offspring is who they are in charge over and rule for 1000 years. That is how God worked in placing Adam in the Garden. To rule over all his offspring for thousands of years. In the Millennium Adam's family will be in Paradise. There will be new families populating the earth per Isaiah 65. This will last 1000 years, and then Death will be defeated.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Show me one verse were the harvest was done remotely from Heaven. Jesus is always the one present at harvest time.

That's begging the question. The "harvest of the end of the age" is defined as such by Jesus, and refers to the time when Jesus sends forth his angels to do the concluding work of the age.

Matt 13.37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

I do believe the Harvest, therefore, takes place when Jesus comes again.

The Millennium is not about Adam's family. It is about God's chosen elect who rule with Christ for 1000 years, in resurrected bodies. God does not reintroduce sin into the world. This time is sin free and Holy, and Christ is ruling from Jerusalem. The farmer is always present at the final harvest. Christ will remain as ruler over those resurrected from the final harvest. They will have offspring. The offspring is who they are in charge over and rule for 1000 years. That is how God worked in placing Adam in the Garden. To rule over all his offspring for thousands of years. In the Millennium Adam's family will be in Paradise. There will be new families populating the earth per Isaiah 65. This will last 1000 years, and then Death will be defeated.

You're entitled to your own opinion. The Millennium is not elaborated on very much in the Bible. It is just mentioned in Rev 20, and seems to correspond to the Hope of Israel, as expressed in the OT Scriptures. Abraham was promised a special nation and a family of nations. That has happened with Israel and the Church, but the job has not been completed. Israel needs recovery, and the Church is appointed to be glorified judges, to keep Satan at bay while God completes this task.

At least that's how I understand it. But you're welcome to interpret things any way you see fit. It's not very clear to me.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Judaism was only and still is a man made religion. It had nothing to do with being God's theological "vehicle" of truth. Christianity is only a man made religion. It is not God's Word either.

That's about the most absurd statement, on its face, that you've made thus far, though rivaling with "being Jewish has nothing to do with ethnicity," or "Christianity is not a religion." It's difficult to argue with such irrational statements.

Only God's Testament both Old and New is God's means of dealing directly with humanity. Pointing out the truth of God's Word does not have to be doctrine, theology, nor dogma.

As I said, the Scriptures *are* in fact the product of theology or present a system of theology. To say otherwise is blissful ignorance hoping to avoid having to think about a doctrine that can be argued over. In denying the Scriptures are theological and doctrinal you hope to establish your own dogmatism, you think?

This is what liberal theologians do when they try to separate out revelation and the supernatural from the Scriptures. In the end, religion becomes not a matter of dependence on God's word, but rather, a matter of the conviction that there are no absolutes but some man-induced form of love, as opposed to some doctrine emanating from God in heaven.

That is an attempt to start a man made religion. That is how Islam and Mormans came about. Christianity and Judaism came about just by living God's Word. Other religions tend to adopt God's Word into their cultural understanding. Many of the early church fathers considered theologians came out of other religions, and their conversion experience and how they related to Christianity became their theology and was introduced into the religion as accepted theology.

No, true Christians abandoned their past, and tried to explain their past by their new Christian revelation. This is a matter of becoming an apologist for your faith.

On the other hand, you are doing precisely what you are accusing them of doing. You are creating a man-based Christianity by removing the critical elements that make Christianity a God-based religion. The statements of the Bible that make Judaism or Christianity dogmatic are things like "You shall have no other gods before Me." If you remove these, and try to practice "Christian love," you don't really have Christ at all, and you don't have true love either.