No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[Timtofly]

That's about the most absurd statement, on its face, that you've made thus far, though rivaling with "being Jewish has nothing to do with ethnicity," or "Christianity is not a religion." It's difficult to argue with such irrational statements.



As I said, the Scriptures *are* in fact the product of theology or present a system of theology. To say otherwise is blissful ignorance hoping to avoid having to think about a doctrine that can be argued over. In denying the Scriptures are theological and doctrinal you hope to establish your own dogmatism, you think?

This is what liberal theologians do when they try to separate out revelation and the supernatural from the Scriptures. In the end, religion becomes not a matter of dependence on God's word, but rather, a matter of the conviction that there are no absolutes but some man-induced form of love, as opposed to some doctrine emanating from God in heaven.



No, true Christians abandoned their past, and tried to explain their past by their new Christian revelation. This is a matter of becoming an apologist for your faith.

On the other hand, you are doing precisely what you are accusing them of doing. You are creating a man-based Christianity by removing the critical elements that make Christianity a God-based religion. The statements of the Bible that make Judaism or Christianity dogmatic are things like "You shall have no other gods before Me." If you remove these, and try to practice "Christian love," you don't really have Christ at all, and you don't have true love either.

We have God's Word. If you want religion to dictate God's Word to you, that is your free choice.

 

[Truth7t7]

When the dust settles all the world will notice God on the throne, and the Lamb sitting on a throne in Jerusalem. That the church is gone will be the least of their worries. Yes many will want to die, who now have loved one's gone. They will know why they are gone. They will still reject God and allow Satan to decieve them.

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false, he warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We have God's Word. If you want religion to dictate God's Word to you, that is your free choice.

"Religion" isn't a dirty word, unless you make it so.

 

[Timtofly]

"Religion" isn't a dirty word, unless you make it so.

Dirt is not a dirty word either.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Dirt is not a dirty word either.

Exactly. All things are pure to him who is pure--even religion. We can use religion properly, or not. We shouldn't just give it a bad name in knee-jerk fashion.

 

[David H.]

It makes no difference how long the AoD lasts, it starts mid trib, and Paul made clear that the coming of Christ will be after the AoD enters the temple and declares himself God.

In Luke 21 Jesus describes the great tribulation, then says to pray we be found worthy of escaping all those things, in verse 36.”

The evidence is clear, IMO, that it’s a mid-trib, pre mark rapture.

You see how ingrained this concept is in your thinking that you cannot even consider and explore what is being said here? This is what I mean about very few eschatology scholars being able to be taught what contradicts their base assumptions. This is why prophecy forums are always stuck in a deadlock of one side versus the other side. In Fact it is so bad at times that you can point out a glaring contradiction such as the Great tribulation has occurred prior to the saints being removed and that those saints lived through it (Revelation 7:14) and they in turn have to come up with a concept known as the "tribulation saints" which were the rejects of the rapture but somehow they are now saints.... do you see how foolish this is? It is like saying the tares become the tribulation saints? No, this contradicts Christ's own words of the tares being thrown into the fire, the fire of wrath and not tribulation.

I Hope you are ready to face the mark of the beast!

 

[David H.]

There is no Scripture for such repentance. This is human imagination that makes movies for human entertainment. Those people with their religion and by extension theology, will have to stick with their bad theology. The whore of religion goes all the way through until Death, never repenting.

I Just read a bunch of your posts, and boy are they full of "human imagination" and lacking scriptural basis. Perhaps you cannot see this in your own comments.... for example: "the week of the 7th Trumpet" please tell me where this is found in scripture, or is this just a figment of the imagination? I Can't seem to find that, I can find the seventy weeks, I can find midsts of or for half the week, i can find the seventh trumpet, but not the "week of the seventh trumpet"

 

[marks]

No need for me to learn more about Pretrib--I was Pretrib at one time. I may not know everything about your own particular view of Pretrib--I appreciate you sharing that.

One of the biggest problems with the pre-trib view, I find, is the multiplicity of bad arguments supporting it.

Just the same, it's the one view I've found that doesn't create irreconcilable conflicts with other passages.

Much love!

 

[marks]

and they in turn have to come up with a concept known as the "tribulation saints" which were the rejects of the rapture but somehow they are now saints.... do you see how foolish this is?

To my thinking, the real foolishness is to make a campaign against a person, rather than simply going to the Bible to see whether is says this or not.

I see real pattern here, now, across a number of people. If someone disagrees with something you say, you become obsessed with showing their "spiritual deficiencies".

And comments like this?

I Hope you are ready to face the mark of the beast!

I hope you are.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

To my thinking, the real foolishness is to make a campaign against a person, rather than simply going to the Bible to see whether is says this or not.

I see real pattern here, now, across a number of people. If someone disagrees with something you say, you become obsessed with showing their "spiritual deficiencies".

I Am pointing to a fundamental contradiction in the pre trib viewpoint, One that they have to explain with a concept known as the "tribulation saints" Ie. those who were rejected for the rapture as tares, now become saints, and a great multitude of them having come out of the Great tribulation.

I Know you are easily offended but this is a serious philosophical criticism of the "left behind" theology that is so prevalent in the church. My personal view is Pre-wrath, and Premillennial. I do not condemn those who hold to pretrib, like i said before they will be the first to realize their error and repent and come to the Point of saying "LORD thou knowest" (Ezekiel 37:3)

 

[marks]

I Know you are easily offended

Give me a break!

When you post this nonsense, it makes me disinclined to read any further. I mean, why should I bother?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I do not condemn those who hold to pretrib, like i said before they will be the first to realize their error and repent and come to the Point of saying "LORD thou knowest" (Ezekiel 37:3)

Nor do I condemn those who hold the so-called "pre-wrath" view. What a wonderful surprise will be in store for them!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I Am pointing to a fundamental contradiction in the pre trib viewpoint, One that they have to explain with a concept known as the "tribulation saints"

You see how ingrained this concept is in your thinking that you cannot even consider and explore what is being said here? This is what I mean about very few eschatology scholars being able to be taught what contradicts their base assumptions. This is why prophecy forums are always stuck in a deadlock of one side versus the other side. In Fact it is so bad at times that you can point out a glaring contradiction such as the Great tribulation has occurred prior to the saints being removed and that those saints lived through it (Revelation 7:14) and they in turn have to come up with a concept known as the "tribulation saints" which were the rejects of the rapture but somehow they are now saints.... do you see how foolish this is?

. . . campaign against a person. You've done it to me, and I've now seen you do the same thing to several others in turn.

Much love!

 

[michaelvpardo]

Yes!! After the rapture millions of people will have proof and change and become believers but then they must try to stay aliand live under anti-christ rule where most will be hunted down and killed.. Why not wise up now and be counted worthy to escape as Jesus said

I wouldn't trust pop doctrines and pop movies. Read chapters 2 and 3 of the book of the Revelation. Only 1 out of the 7 churches, the church of Philadelphia, has the promise to be kept from the hour of trial to come upon the Earth and it doesn't say that this has anything to do with the first resurrection. The gathering together of the saints and transformation of the bodies of those still alive at His 2nd coming is the first resurrection. Revelation chapter 20 tells us when the 1st resurrection happens and it's not until the defeat of the antichrist at Christ's return. You can hold to that doctrine if you want to, but don't be shaken with the events of the tribulation, remember what faithful brothers and sisters in the Lord have been trying to tell you for years and just trust the Lord to keep you safe.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Yes, Pretrib is an invention of Man, who wanted to believe that Christians shouldn't have to suffer in times of God's wrath upon the earth. But throughout history, there have been particularly difficult periods in which God's wrath was poured out on sections of humanity, and Christians always had to endure as witnesses to God's love and grace in those times. There is a reason God doesn't call cowards, and encourages us to be brave, strong, and to stand!

We have this promise that we won't be tempted beyond what we can endure, but will always have a way of escape.
The Lord taught me the error in that doctrine which I believed because I trusted the otherwise sound teaching of scholars that I admired, but I know that not everyone's faith can stand what's to come. God can remove women, children, the fearful, the timid, whomever He chooses in the same fashion He has throughout history, the death of the body.
A lot of people die during the tribulation, but scripture tells us that at least through part of it, those who receive the mark of the beast will want to die, but won't be able to. Ever wonder about that? How will the Lord prevent mass suicides?
We don't have to know these things, but if those deceived by the doctrine are trusting God and not putting their faith in "the rapture", then they'll stand and endure, because God is able to make them stand.

 

[David H.]

campaign against a person.

It is a rational criticism of a theory, one that you make personal, because I am disagreeing with you? One that others have a "personal vested interest in" promoting rather than critically analyzing the contradictions in that position. In Other words criticism becomes personal because they see the attack on a theory they hold as an attack on themselves personally. This is where your problem lies, and you cannot see this. This is what I mean about you being easily offended.

Think about it before you respond.

 

[marks]

In Other words criticism becomes personal because they see the attack on a theory they hold as an attack on themselves personally. This is where your problem lies, and you cannot see this.

That's why I copied your comments that were strictly personal, so you could see this.

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is what I mean about you being easily offended.

You've been using this line a long time whenever I point out your misbehavior. This is also Ad Hominem fallacy, as you divert from the discussion of the topic to discuss the participants in the discussion. The way you go about it, also is Gaslighting.

It's a waste of time, a waste of space, in a debate/discussion. Going on and on with your negative opinions of others tells us about you, not the others.

You have shared your negative opinions of a number of people here, I've noticed, without regard for truth, at least not that I've seen. Just like here, pull that one out, OH! I know you are SO easily offended!!

But that's a lot easier than actually responding to the content of the discussion. That would be a much more mature discussion, don't you think?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, Pretrib is an invention of Man, who wanted to believe that Christians shouldn't have to suffer in times of God's wrath upon the earth.

The fallacy to this is that I know that whatever God has ordained is what is best, and whatever that may be, I'm merely interested in knowing what He's told us.

I know that whatever the tribulation and persecution, whether today or tomorrow or 20 years from now, His grace is sufficient for me.

I don't make the mistake of thinking tribulation will only come in an end-of-the-age scenario, we can suffer horrifically right now. And still His grace is sufficient for me.

I study the Bible, and it points me to a pre-trib rapture. I'm not trying to avoid difficulty. That's where we receive glory!! Just the same, that's where it points me.

I'm not the only one on this. Maybe some people think that way, but I certainly don't.

Much love!

 

[marks]

A lot of people die during the tribulation, but scripture tells us that at least through part of it, those who receive the mark of the beast will want to die, but won't be able to.

That's not what it says though. It's the locust-things, 5 months tormenting people who vainly wish to die.

Much love!