No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[David H.]

You've been using this line a long time whenever I point out your misbehavior. This is also Ad Hominem fallacy, as you divert from the discussion of the topic to discuss the participants in the discussion. The way you go about it, also is Gaslighting.

It's a waste of time, a waste of space, in a debate/discussion. Going on and on with your negative opinions of others tells us about you, not the others.

You have shared your negative opinions of a number of people here, I've noticed, without regard for truth, at least not that I've seen. Just like here, pull that one out, OH! I know you are SO easily offended!!

But that's a lot easier than actually responding to the content of the discussion. That would be a much more mature discussion, don't you think?

Much love!

Exactly my point, my comment offended you as is indicative of this response. NOT ONCE have you refuted the point of made showing the contradiction in the pretrib viewpoint.... NOT ONCE, instead, you bloviate about my misbehaviour, which shows you are offended by my criticism, without a coherent logical response. You are so full of hatred for me you will not even respond in a reasonable way to critique.

Think about it, and stop being so emotional.

 

[marks]

Exactly my point, my comment offended you as is indicative of this response. NOT ONCE have you refuted the point of made showing the contradiction in the pretrib viewpoint.... NOT ONCE, instead, you bloviate about my misbehaviour, which shows you are offended by my criticism, without a coherent logical response. You are so full of hatred for me you will not even respond in a reasonable way to critique.

Think about it, and stop being so emotional.

You need to get a life, me thinks.

 

[marks]

NOT ONCE have you refuted the point of made showing the contradiction in the pretrib viewpoint....

What exactly is your perceived contradiction? I'll be happy to respond to you, IF you can pose your question without extraneous personal commentary and opinion. If you want to just continue with your poor opinions of me, and your projections of what you think I'm feeling, all that, if you can just stop with that, OK.

Much love!

 

[marks]

you bloviate about my misbehaviour, which shows you are offended by my criticism, without a coherent logical response.

Rather, it shows my low tolerance for non-communicative and anti-communicative behavior on a Christian discussion forum.

And is shows my interest in rectifying such behavior before continuing the discussion.

Simply stated, if you want to talk about things, you can do so nicely, or I'm just not that interested. I'd rather fix the social problem first, because otherwise, it's going to taint the rest of what follows.

If that to you is more bloviation, so be it. Label it instead of receiving it, that's a good way to avoid both responsibility and benefit.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Think about it, and stop being so emotional.

I literally had to laugh as I read this. I mean seriously. Do you really think you have some concept of my emotional affect? Seriously? Obviously I know what is real. So who are you trying to kid?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Rather, it shows my low tolerance for non-communicative and anti-communicative behavior on a Christian discussion forum.

I literally had to laugh as I read this. I mean seriously. Do you really think you have some concept of my emotional affect? Seriously? Obviously I know what is real. So who are you trying to kid?

Low tolerance IS an emotional response.... you just don't get it do you.

What exactly is your perceived contradiction?

The fact that you do not know my point is a direct result of your emotions affecting your ability to interact in a normal logical way with a fellow forum participant, and shows your emotional state. I Have expressed my point in numerous comments here....I'll give you a clue: "tribulation saints" being the tares of the church in turn become saints, contradicting the words of Christ Jesus who said the tares will be burned in the fire of wrath, while the wheat is taken into the barn and refined by the tribullum of the threshing floor.

 

[marks]

Low tolerance IS an emotional response.... you just don't get it do you.

Rather, it's a values based choice.

The comment "you just don't get it do you" is yet another example of an Ad Hominem.

You give your view, that low tolerance for something is an emotional response, something I would consider entirely dependent on other factors, and then follow with a personally denigrating comment.

I call attention to it, next you'll tell me how emotionally reactive I am.

I don't actually have to get "all worked up" or something to point out the inappropriateness or inaccuracy of your comments.

The fact that you do not know my point is a direct result of your emotions affecting your ability to interact in a normal logical way with a fellow forum participant, and shows your emotional state.

Or perhaps it's that I find it somewhat difficult finding your actual content on the given topic. And that I really do lose interest in reading when I start coming across more of this sort of writing.

I'll give you a clue: "tribulation saints" being the tares of the church in turn become saints, contradicting the words of Christ Jesus who said the tares will be burned in the fire of wrath, while the wheat is taken into the barn and refined by the tribullum of the threshing floor.

There are two problems here. One is that I offered to give a response if you could leave out the personal rubbish, and you can't seem to do that.

The other is, well, frankly, it's difficult to make heads or tails out of what you wrote here.

I'm thinking what you are saying may be something like this,

That the false believers become saints contradicting that Jesus said they'd be burned up? Something like that?

Was there something about something I myself have said that you want to respond to? Or can you ask a more specific question?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Was there something about something I myself have said that you want to respond to? Or can you ask a more specific question?

The error that leads to this problem is in the assumptions made by the pretribulation adherents. The saints are clearly around until after the mark of the beast as per what is said in Revelation 14 where they are mentioned the last time on earth having to endure. So In order to explain this discrepancy they come up with a concept known as the "tribulation saints" These being ones who were rejected for the rapture.

When You point out to those same people that Jesus clearly places the rapture after the abomination of desolation and the Great tribulation Matthew 24:29-30, and this means the sixth seal is after the mark of the beast, they will try and defend it by saying Daniel 9:27 says the abomination is in the midst of the week, which is a translation discrepancy that can be explained logically and cohesively to eliminate this contradiction.

This then is confirmed By Revelation 7:14 which confirms that the great multitude has come out of the great tribulation.

Most of them will agree that revelation has jump back in time in Revelation 12, But they do not see that There are other jump backs in time. therefore they see the sixth seal as coming before the mark of the beast and the great tribulation, which again is a contradiction of Christ's own words which say immediately after the tribulation of those days referring to the Great tribulation. What does this mean then? It means revelation is not sequential as they assume, but a series of overlapping visions..... there are a total seven, and if you count the little scroll 8 such visions that overlap, each of which culminate in one day, the days of the LORD (the seven thunders).

Now that being said, I do not go to the other extreme that the postmill and preterist camps go to and say the church age is the "great tribulation" nor do I negate the dual fulfillment which occurred in 70ad of some of the events described in the Olivet discourse. Instead, I believe that there will be a final week for Israel to accomplish all the things set out in Daniel 9:24-27, and unlike the church, she will drink of the cup of the wrath of God till she is drunk, But the LORD in his mercy will spare her. The Church on the other hand will be raised and transformed at the time of the last trump.

Now the time of that last trump, is all one event, and this is where the overlapping visions come into play. Some see the rapture at the sixth seal, some at the sixth trumpet, some at the 5th vial.... what if they are all right, and that there are seven such times in revelation that are either directly spoken of or alluded to in those seven visions?

All of this leads me to conclude that the first half of the final week for Israel will be the beast ruling for 42 months instilling the mark of the beast on the world, and the church will be here for this first half of the final week AKA the great tribulation, and then the church will be glorified, while Israel will continue to drink of the cup of the wrath of God and the armies will gather around her and the LORD will Spare her.

 

[michaelvpardo]

That's not what it says though. It's the locust-things, 5 months tormenting people who vainly wish to die.

Much love!

Thought that was part of the tribulation, but whatever.
God bless, brother. Been tweeting today because I get to have some fun with it. Probably should do a little wood splitting while the weather is dry and cool though. We've been getting plenty of rain this season.

 

[marks]

Thought that was part of the tribulation, but whatever.
God bless, brother. Been tweeting today because I get to have some fun with it. Probably should do a little wood splitting while the weather is dry and cool though. We've been getting plenty of rain this season.

Just saying, it wasn't about the mark, it was the locust things.

I wish I had some wood to split and fireplace to burn it in!

Much love!

 

[marks]

The error that leads to this problem is in the assumptions made by the pretribulation adherents. The saints are clearly around until after the mark of the beast as per what is said in Revelation 14 where they are mentioned the last time on earth having to endure. So In order to explain this discrepancy they come up with a concept known as the "tribulation saints" These being ones who were rejected for the rapture.

When You point out to those same people that Jesus clearly places the rapture after the abomination of desolation and the Great tribulation Matthew 24:29-30, and this means the sixth seal is after the mark of the beast, they will try and defend it by saying Daniel 9:27 says the abomination is in the midst of the week, which is a translation discrepancy that can be explained logically and cohesively to eliminate this contradiction.

This then is confirmed By Revelation 7:14 which confirms that the great multitude has come out of the great tribulation.

Most of them will agree that revelation has jump back in time in Revelation 12, But they do not see that There are other jump backs in time. therefore they see the sixth seal as coming before the mark of the beast and the great tribulation, which again is a contradiction of Christ's own words which say immediately after the tribulation of those days referring to the Great tribulation. What does this mean then? It means revelation is not sequential as they assume, but a series of overlapping visions..... there are a total seven, and if you count the little scroll 8 such visions that overlap, each of which culminate in one day, the days of the LORD (the seven thunders).

Now that being said, I do not go to the other extreme that the postmill and preterist camps go to and say the church age is the "great tribulation" nor do I negate the dual fulfillment which occurred in 70ad of some of the events described in the Olivet discourse. Instead, I believe that there will be a final week for Israel to accomplish all the things set out in Daniel 9:24-27, and unlike the church, she will drink of the cup of the wrath of God till she is drunk, But the LORD in his mercy will spare her. The Church on the other hand will be raised and transformed at the time of the last trump.

Now the time of that last trump, is all one event, and this is where the overlapping visions come into play. Some see the rapture at the sixth seal, some at the sixth trumpet, some at the 5th vial.... what if they are all right, and that there are seven such times in revelation that are either directly spoken of or alluded to in those seven visions?

All of this leads me to conclude that the first half of the final week for Israel will be the beast ruling for 42 months instilling the mark of the beast on the world, and the church will be here for this first half of the final week AKA the great tribulation, and then the church will be glorified, while Israel will continue to drink of the cup of the wrath of God and the armies will gather around her and the LORD will Spare her.

Ok, thank you for being more clear. I'm going to look over this a couple of times and respond.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The error that leads to this problem is in the assumptions made by the pretribulation adherents. The saints are clearly around until after the mark of the beast as per what is said in Revelation 14 where they are mentioned the last time on earth having to endure. So In order to explain this discrepancy they come up with a concept known as the "tribulation saints" These being ones who were rejected for the rapture.

Saints, yes, but this doesn't negate a pre-trib rapture. What it tells us is that God will have saints on the earth, after the pre-trib rapture. We know this is true very easily as 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of the 70th week, and just as the innumberable multitude from all tribes nations tongues people appears in heaven before the throne. This is the raptured church, in heaven, at the beginning of the 70th week, before the plagues, before all of it.

Whether or not these are "rejected for the rapture", naturally none who are not "in Christ" will be caught up. So all who are not "in Christ" will be rejected for the rapture, being left behind.

There is no discrepancy requiring explanation. God gathers His church, and the 70th week begins, which is intended for the salvation of Israel, and the putting to the test all on the earth, to make their final choice.

The church has already made her choice.

When You point out to those same people that Jesus clearly places the rapture after the abomination of desolation and the Great tribulation Matthew 24:29-30, and this means the sixth seal is after the mark of the beast, they will try and defend it by saying Daniel 9:27 says the abomination is in the midst of the week, which is a translation discrepancy that can be explained logically and cohesively to eliminate this contradiction.

Actually Jesus does not speak concerning the rapture, as that concerns the church, a mystery revealed by Paul.

This then is confirmed By Revelation 7:14 which confirms that the great multitude has come out of the great tribulation.

"Out of" or "away from", you need to look at John's word use. And this is, again, at the beginning of the week, before the trumpets, before the bowls, the AOD, all of it.

Most of them will agree that revelation has jump back in time in Revelation 12, But they do not see that There are other jump backs in time. therefore they see the sixth seal as coming before the mark of the beast and the great tribulation, which again is a contradiction of Christ's own words which say immediately after the tribulation of those days referring to the Great tribulation. What does this mean then? It means revelation is not sequential as they assume, but a series of overlapping visions..... there are a total seven, and if you count the little scroll 8 such visions that overlap, each of which culminate in one day, the days of the LORD (the seven thunders).

In the sixth seal, the sun is turned to sackcloth, and the moon to blood. When Jesus returns, the sun and moon are both darkened. We know from Zechariah the stars too. Lights out in the universe, the only light will be Jesus.

It sounds like you consider these to be the same events, do you? That as the moon turns to blood in the one passage, darkened in the other, but it's all the same thing? Is that the idea?

I'll stop there for the moment.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

It sounds like you consider these to be the same events, do you? That as the moon turns to blood in the one passage, darkened in the other, but it's all the same thing? Is that the idea?

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Matthew 24:29)

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. (Revelation 6:12-13)

Yes I consider these the same event. The parallels are too big to ignore. Revelation is a vision and adds visual details not given by Christ in the Olivet discourse. So For example: a moon not giving its light could be she does not shine, but also could mean she does not shine like she usually does.... sackcloth will darken the sun, but not totally block its light. I Believe this will be a supernatural event and not merely an eclipse as both will occur simultaneously, which is a physical impossibility, Much like the darkness that occurred during the crucifixion, when the sun went dark for six hours (much longer than a typical eclipse) around Passover which is denoted by a full moon, (again a physical impossibility as the moon has to be NEW for an eclipse) This second shaking being the "once more" that Haggai speaks of

Now if you expand this to other verses speaking similar things such as Revelation 8:12, you will begin to see the events unfolding in the heavens, but if you see the fourth trump as happening after the sixth seal you will not. Now i believe the first seal was opened shortly after Christ ascended to heaven, so the seals are a long series of events that began back then and will culminate in the Great tribulation with the Number of saints to be fulfilled by the fifth seal persecutions, Although all those horsemen will continue riding throughout the Great tribulation

 

[marks]

Yes I consider these the same event. The parallels are too big to ignore

OK, I thought so.

The differences are likewise too big for me to ignore. To me a 90% match is not 100%. And making them to be the same causes irreconcileable conflicts between a number of passages.

I don't blur the distinctions between events in the Bible even though there are similarities, if there are differences.

Matthew 24:29 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Joel 2:31 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

A blood moon is giving it's red light. At the coming of Christ, the moon will not be giving light. I think we do well to pay attention to these sorts of things.

There are some who look at the seals and trumpets and bowls as all describing the same set of seven events, based on seeming surface similarities. I find myself asking the questions, so, which is it? 1/3 of the sea or the entire sea? Blood moon or black moon?

This pathway leads us down the road that ends with saying, "the verse says THIS but actually means THAT", which I think demonstrates lack of understanding.

It says it's a blood moon, but it means a black moon. It says the mountains and islands were moved, but it means they were gone, or vice versa, depending on which you want to make the baseline for the other to conform to.

If we look at each event that is portrayed as a unique event, we don't have to make this kinds of equivalencies, and instead can receive the text exactly as it is written.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So For example: a moon not giving its light could be she does not shine, but also could mean she does not shine like she usually does.... sackcloth will darken the sun, but not totally block its light.

This is a great example.

Matthew 24:29 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Shall not give her light? Or, Shall not give <all of> her light?

If you have to add or remove or change words to make something fit your view, I think its the view that should be changed instead. I've followed that course all along, and never regretted it.

sackcloth will darken the sun, but not totally block its light.

Revelation 6:12 KJV
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Paying attention to every word answers these things.

But then the sun is black/ darkened, the different is in the moon.

How does that make sense?

In the beginning of the week, at the opening of the sixth seal, the sun is "black", and the moon is "blood". This is phenomenal language, expressing the appearance to the viewer.

When Jesus returns, the sun and moon are darkened. This is process language, having nothing to do with how it looks, rather, it tells us what has been done.

Zechariah tells us more,

Zechariah 14:6-7 KJV
6) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7) But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zechariah 14:6-7 YLT
6) And it hath come to pass, in that day, The precious light is not, it is dense darkness,
7) And there hath been one day, It is known to Jehovah, not day nor night, And it hath been at evening-time—there is light.

Genesis 1:1-5 YLT
1) In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth—
2) the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
3) and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is.
4) And God seeth the light that it is good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,
5) and God calleth to the light 'Day,' and to the darkness He hath called 'Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning—day one.

Something is happening here that goes way beyond the appearance of the sun and moon to the casual earth observer.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I Believe this will be a supernatural event and not merely an eclipse as both will occur simultaneously, which is a physical impossibility,

Actually, a double eclipse is not physically impossible. A celestial object of the right size and distance passing between the earth and the sun during a lunar eclipse would produce that effect, and could as well account for a lot of what else will be happening. Meteors, earthquakes, atmospheric distruptions, yep.

But even if we couldn't think of a scenario where it seemed reasonable to us, that doesn't mean something can't happen the way God says, just because I don't understand how.

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

In Fact it is so bad at times that you can point out a glaring contradiction such as the Great tribulation has occurred prior to the saints being removed and that those saints lived through it (Revelation 7:14) and they in turn have to come up with a concept known as the "tribulation saints" which were the rejects of the rapture but somehow they are now saints.... do you see how foolish this is? It is like saying the tares become the tribulation saints?

Precious friend, to get us started, let us summarize, then e-x-p-a-n-d below, ok?
MYSTERY/GRACE, God Reconciling/not imputing sin, tribulations,
Gospel Of GRACE for The Body Of CHRIST! {us as individuals, Today!}

Rightly Divided ( 2 Timothy 2 : 15! ) From "Things That DIFFER!":

Prophecy/Law, God's Great Tribulation/Judgment And Wrath,
gospel of the kingdom, for The Nation of ISRAEL And the nations!
-------------------------------------
Of course, some are implying that we seem to be
applying an -ism, when we do this:

...you {@Timtofly} seem to be applying Dispensationalism, dividing Israel from the Church.

Precious friend, IF we do NOT apply Right Division of these TWO groups, but
mix them up {"Approved Unto God"?}, we get this kind of Confusion, eh?:

Yes!! After the rapture millions of people will have proof and change and become believers but then they must try to stay alive and live under anti-christ rule where most will be hunted down and killed.. Why not wise up now and be counted worthy to escape as Jesus said

Precious friend(s), if I may offer God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!:

{Answering these: "'tribulation saints' which were the rejects of the rapture"?
"After the rapture millions of people will have proof and change and become believers"?}
Depends On These:

(1)
Part 16: Great GRACE Departure!

Post Departure "Deception!": ​

​

Just AFTER The Resurrection/Departure Of The Body Of CHRIST To HEAVEN!:

Problem: those "Left Behind who heard and Understood" God's Most Wonderful
"Gospel Of GRACE" will have NO SECOND CHANCE, According to God's Pure
And Holy WORD!:

{Does anyone NOTICE the following DOUBLE DECEPTION!?}

"Even him {THE Wicked one}, whose coming is after the working of Satan
with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of
unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not The Love Of
The Truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God Shall Send them
Strong Delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned
who BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness!"
(2 Thessalonians_2 : 9-12)
Tares, who did NOT OBEY God's Gospel Of GRACE, headed for the lake of fire, Correct?
---------------------------------------
"{Great} tribulation saints" are not tares, but {wheat?} those who "did NOT
hear/understand/Reject" The Gospel Of GRACE, and entered into JACOB's Trouble,
But are those who OBEY "the {other} gospel of the KINGDOM" {below}, Correct?:

(2)
Part 4 Great GRACE Departure!

Which "Gospel" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"? ​

In The Revelation Of The MYSTERY!: Paul preached The Gospel of GRACE, Which Is:
JESUS CHRIST, The SON Of God, Freely Gave HIS Life As A Sacrifice For our sins.
HE Was Crucified, Buried, And Rose From the dead on the third day!
(1 Corinthians 15 : 3-4!).

Paul wrote in Galatians 1 : 8 that if anyone (Including "AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN!"),
"... preach any other gospel unto you than That Which we have preached unto you,
let him Be ACCURSED!" Thus we know that this present predominantly Gentile church
Must Be Removed {PRE-TOJT} to allow the worldwide preaching of "the gospel of the
kingdom" that Paul did Not preach to us...

Rightly Divided ( 2 Timothy 2 : 15! ) From "Things That DIFFER!":

...Making Way For HIS [Everlasting] gospel of the kingdom!:

JESUS Said in Matthew_24 : 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in
all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." The gospel
of the kingdom was "... Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"
(Matthew_4 : 17).

When God "Resumes HIS Prophetic Program," The Everlasting gospel of the kingdom
Will be preached by 144,000 "sealed" Jews, TWO powerful "witnesses" AND by an
angel (Revelation 14 : 6!) Seriously, how can The Body Of CHRIST "enter Into JACOB's
Trouble, with The Gospel Of GRACE," And, this angel NOT be ACCURSED, "preaching a
Different Gospel?

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 KJB!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

TODAY Is THE Day of {MYSTERY/GRACE!} Salvation, And The END of
The Current "Age of God's Amazing GRACE" = Great GRACE Departure!

While TODAY, The "Day Of Salvation" Still Exists, This Current Gospel Is As:

SIMPLE As Can Be! ​

​

------------------------------------
(3)
Conclusion: Prophecy and MYSTERY are NOT "the same thing," and Rightly
Dividing them Eliminates all the Confusion! Amen?:

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery
"Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

Be Blessed!

 

[David H.]

Revelation 6:12 KJV
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Do You know what sackcloth is? mesh, sackcloth, sack, sacking H8242 - śaq - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
It is a loosely woven mesh material that is done so purposely to allow water to drain out of it, Think Burlap, the color of the thread makes no difference, as it is a semi-permeable membrane which includes light.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Shall not give her light? Or, Shall not give <all of> her light?

When we have a lunar eclipse, the light of the moon becomes orange and red, correct? It is not giving it's light like it normally does, correct? As it is in the shadow of the earth, correct?

What does it mean to your theory to admit that i might be right, and these two passages are speaking of the same event? It throws a whole series of contradictions into the pretrib viewpoint that you cannot handle, correct? So You have to separate these two events, and in turn you have to say Christ's second coming is two comings as many like to surmise, one to get the bride the other riding on the whitehorse. But I say there is only one second coming, and i have no problem with this contradiction. In Fact I see overlap with the fourth trumpet, where we see a third part of the day and a third part of the night being removed as a third part of the stars falling as a precursor to this event, meaning the fourth trumpet occurs before the sixth seal and my eschatology has no problem with this. I Also have no problem alligning the rapture of the church with sixth seal the seventh trumpet, the rapture of the two witnesses, the destruction of the man of sin with the brightness of his coming, and Jesus coming riding on his whitehorse as a simultaneous event, with the only delays being the logistics of gathering the armies to Armageddon, and the drying of the River Euphrates and the releasing of the fallen angels bound there.

This is a whole new way to approach Revelation, one that even the brightest minds have not been able to see (such as Newton and Davinci), That has been sealed (The seven thunders) until the time of the end.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Just saying, it wasn't about the mark, it was the locust things.

I wish I had some wood to split and fireplace to burn it in!

Much love!

I just have a woodburning stove with a glass window which helps me keep comfortable in the cold weather. I do like watching the fire sometimes, but I only split a few big pieces today and I'm whooped. The axe wasn't bad but the adz felt extra heavy today. I won't be able to do such labor much longer, but I bought this place to be near my surviving brother and within driving distance to my former wife (she just always needs help.) Never thought I'd live in a house made of cedar, but it's nice even without a proper oven or laundry and borders state forests so I get lots of 4 legged guests. I even have two stray cats that are annoyingly friendly, when they circle my feet. I'm hoping that I can make a few dollars when I sell, but my next place will most likely be a condo or retirement home.
I liked it out west when I was in the service and I'd love to explore Utah a bit, but my body likes it warmer than the Northeast. I just hope that there's something left to move to with the droughts and fierce fires consuming everything in their path. I've never owned a quality telescope and it would be pleasant to spend some time in the cool evening air of a desert with a big clear open sky. Its pretty awesome if you've never tried that, even without a telescope. I guess there won't be any stars to look at during the millennium and that just makes me sad. I've been considering using the last of my retroactive pay increases to buy a used camper so I can travel and stay here and there for a while, but I dont have anyone to feed my wildlife friends and I dont think the cats would care to leave their territory either.
Oh well, I suppose that if it's the Lord's will, he'll make the way and provide all I need. I expect great things at His hands during sukkot this year, but I'm hoping that He isn't coming back just yet. I really need a vacation from my retirement.

 

[David H.]

"{Great} tribulation saints" are not tares, but {wheat?} those who "did NOT
hear/understand/Reject" The Gospel Of GRACE, and entered into JACOB's Trouble,
But are those who OBEY "the {other} gospel of the KINGDOM" {below}, Correct?:

The Only difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace unto salvation is that the Gospel of the Kingdom is based on the soon coming King of Kings. There comes a time when men no longer repent of the wickedness (sixth trumpet) after which the judgment decree is pronounced and the rewards are handed out and the tares are cast into the fire (Revelation 10) which is when the ministry of the two witnesses is completed and they are killed which is the final straw.... Only those in Israel herself repent when that great earthquake occurs with 7000 dead in Jerusalem. These are the 144k of the tribes of Israel, who follow the lamb wherever he goes.