No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

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It is another problem altogether to deny commonality.

But I'm not denying commonality, I'm saying that a partial commonality would cause us to have to link together far more prophecies than these.

Partial commonality in terminology, for me, is not sufficient to overlook that which is contradictory or exclusionary.

It kind of Irks me that you wish to change the topic from sequentiality to commonality now, ignoring the points I have made to you about sequentiality.

I'm trying to follow the bouncing ball. You are the one who is making the argument that the partial commonality overturns the sequential narrative aspect to the vision.

Again time is irrelevant for the most part in Prophecy one paragraph can speak of both the first and the second advent simultaneously.

So, you'd need to point to specific instances of this, and show how those instances directly impact the Revelation prophecy you have in mind, and how this impacts it's timing.

And it's one thing to say, Here, Jesus read until this part, ". . . the acceptible year of the Lord", but not, "and the day of His vengeance", and this shows that prophecies may have partial fulfillments, with the rest after a period of time. Yes, we see that. However, we need to have the Bible's aurthority itself on the passage in question.

Otherwise, we're just saying, Well, it split that prophecy, so I'm sure this one will be split too! For myself, I look at the text itself to tell me.

Commonality is the only thing we have to work with at times when interpreting Prophecy,

I think first we need to understand each passage thoroughly in its own right, and, I find when I do that, I don't find any need to reach across to similar yet different prophecies. God often does the same thing, or very similar things, repeatedly.

The destruction of Israel's enemies in the Red Sea will be mirrored by the mountain/valley in the winepress of God's wrath, for instance.

that we must make revelation fit into,

I find I don't have to fit the Revelation's chronology into anything. I find it has a reasonably clear and detailed chronology within it, which happens to parallel the other prophecies.

Much Like you and most conservative Christians I started out in the pre-trib camp,

I didn't start out in any camp, other than having been reborn. And not all Christians start off in pre-trib churches either. But that's neither here nor there. I hold my current view from my personal study.

although I wanted to believe in pretrib

That doesn't mean everyone else is the same way.

But the simplicity and beauty of the whole picture rightly seen will outweigh all your preconceptions of what makes the pretrib rapture so appealing to you now

Actually, for me, the simplicity is in how the prophecies are laid out. Prophetic narrative with a few paranthetical passages, and those are labeled for us. The symbols are labeled and defined, the timeline is defined, I find it fairly straightforward.

And, would you please just be done with your accusations that I come to my conclusions out of some dishonest reason! Enough!

Here's a little secret, little known, but terribly important. Truth is what sets us free.

Much love!

 

[michaelvpardo]

Precious friend, maybe this will help encourage/cheer you up! I have worked
on my own personal "study" of the rapture Controversy, and, after 18 months
of work, developed 17 Sections Of God's Scriptures Confirming {for me,
anyway}, that I "Will Be Leaving earth {awake}/or resurrected
{from my sleep}," In A PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure!

Since you are saddened about not "seeing stars during the millennium," I
went ahead and developed The Following, and added it to my "study":

Part 18 Addendum to Great GRACE Departure

Since the hope of The Body Of CHRIST is Heavenly…
(2 Corinthians 5 : 1; 2 Corinthians 5 : 2; Ephesians 1 : 3; Ephesians 1 : 20:
Ephesians 2 : 6; Philippians 3 : 20; Colossians 1 : 5; 2 Timothy 4 : 18 KJB!)

...and Paul Also says “...know ye not that ye shall judge angels?…”
(1 Corinthians 6 : 3a)

Do all PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure believers agree, that our
Bema Seat Judgment Of CHRIST is There, In Heaven, and some of the
Eternally saved will “lose rewards” and others will “receive rewards”?
(1 Corinthians 3 : 7-15)

Do all PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure believers agree that part of
“the rewards” are the following?:

“If we suffer, we shall also reign with HIM...” (2 Timothy 2 : 12a)
------------------------------------------
Now, with this in mind, let us peruse the possibilities of the Real Estate
“where we might reign.” Most assume we are returning to earth to rule
and reign. So, two things are open for prayerful/Careful Consideration:

(1) Being in heaven, being judged {losing rewards, or receiving rewards},
then, we “leave Heaven With CHRIST, being ONE of His armies,”
Correct?:

“And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white
horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19 : 14)

ONE of those armies is ALL the angels, Correct?:

When The Son of man Shall Come In His Glory, and ALL the holy angels
with Him, then Shall He Sit Upon The Throne Of His Glory:
(Matthew 25 : 31)

Now, I dislike making assumptions, so, going out on a limb here,
I will, According to All The Scriptural Evidence that I currently
understand, either make a presumption, Or, make a conclusion that:
The Other army Is The Body Of CHRIST. Agree?

Now, do we, The Body Of CHRIST, “come to the earth with Him,
to rule and reign” (as Most assume?}, Or:

Should we not First Consider This Scripture?:

“And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies,
gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse,
and against His army.” (Revelation 19 : 19)

Why Did God Change from the PLURAL armies when
"He Left Heaven," to:

A SINGULAR army, when He “Arrived On earth”?

Is it Quite Possible, Considering ALL The Above Evidence about the
“Heavenly Uplook” of The Body Of CHRIST, That “He Assigned us
our Heavenly positions” {left vacant by the fallen angels}, On The Way?

And, Contrary to assumptions, we {The Body Of CHRIST} DON’T “come
BACK to the earth” at all? Leaving only the ONE army of ALL the angels!

Interesting, eh? Is There More?:

(2) In the end, we have this, Correct?:

”And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven
and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down from
God out of heaven, prepared as A Bride adorned for Her Husband.”
(Revelation 21 : 1-2 KJB!)

How BIG is This Place? 1500 Miles CUBED?:

And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth:
and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs.
The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(Revelation 21 : 16)

IF Israel “rules and reigns” the earthly land {LOWER} levels of
New Jerusalem, is it not possible that:

With The Above Heavenly UPlook of The Body Of CHRIST, that the
UPPER HEAVENLY levels COULD {Possibly?} be “ruled And reigned”
by it’s saintly members? Us? Interesting “food for thought,” eh?

What think ye, Precious friend, Michael? Instead of "being sad not
seeing stars," Being glad and rejoicing at the possibility Of "hope
of ruling and reigning AMONG the stars," eh?

Please Be Richly Blessed!

With love,
Chris Endrizzi

While I don't believe in a pretribulation rapture anymore, because of what He's shown me in His word, I have considered these things you are saying and in a sense, heaven is turned upside down after His return and we will judge the powers and principalities, the authorities, and sometimes hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places, but scripture doesn't give us clarity on exactly where that will be from. A literal interpretation suggests that the Earth will be that location and since "the outer darkness " was an old Testament expression for those outside the camp of Israel during their wilderness journey, it is possible that His kingdom is entirely on earth, though I hope that your assumption is correct. Perhaps the fact that we can both see the same "scenario " is a confirmation of our understanding, but I can't be dogmatic or assured in "spiritualizing" passages that are given in material terms.
Thank you for your kind response and yes, it is an encouragement.

 

[David H.]

So, you'd need to point to specific instances of this, and show how those instances directly impact the Revelation prophecy you have in mind, and how this impacts it's timing.

Example of this would be Micah 5. In The course of one paragraph we go from the messiah being born in Bethlehem and suffering to him ruling with and rising up against the Assyrian, to the battle of Armageddon. The only indication of time between these events is verse 3 which is foretelling the church age (The woman travailing). In hindsight, we know this is the mystery of the church age and the Gospel to the gentiles, But from the passage as read none expected it would last 2000 years.

I Mentioned Joel 2 which was quoted by the apostles at pentecost, but the part about the latter rain was not included. Again, we had this discussion earlier on this forum about this.

Daniel 11, spans from near fulfilment to Israel to end times Antichrist rule.

The Multiple passages about the Abomination of desolation, some point to Antiochus Epiphanes, some point to 70Ad, Some point to the end time abomination, while some point to all three, Jesus Himself says in a parenthesis "(whoso readeth, let him understand"

Actually, for me, the simplicity is in how the prophecies are laid out. Prophetic narrative with a few paranthetical passages, and those are labeled for us. The symbols are labeled and defined, the timeline is defined, I find it fairly straightforward.

So Here we see how you yourself explain the contradictions your pretrib views build into Revelation, and that is by the insertion of "parenthetical passages". You see you see some of these discrepancies so you have to add to Revelation what is not specified there, But the thing is, rightly understood there is no need for these parenthesis to be added. consider what John said about adding to the prophecy of this book, and I think you may see how adding this is violating what John warned about. (Revelation 22:18) As I said at the outset, I agree with pre tribbers on parts of Revelation 12 for example being a jump back in time, but where you see a parenthesis i see a new vision beginning, right after the vision of the trumpets ends the vision of the "characters" begins, with Christ Jesus being the first and foremost character. The two women being Israel (flees into the wilderness) and the church (flies into the wilderness) One speaks of 70 ad, the other of the end of the church age, all in one chapter. Then we are introduced to the Antichrist, and to the false prophet etc.

Point being, I do not have to add parenthesis as they are not required, but rather explained by the overlap of visions. When You do this, one vision adds depth of understanding to the next vision and so forth and you gain a greater picture of the events occurring, so for example the fourth trumpet adds process to the sixth seal, meaning it is not just an instant event but one that distresses the nations and causes the men's hearts to fail them as Luke's account of this explains.

 

[David H.]

I find I don't have to fit the Revelation's chronology into anything. I find it has a reasonably clear and detailed chronology within it, which happens to parallel the other prophecies.

Here is a post I wrote on this on another forum. Just so that you can see exactly what I am saying here:

I am starting this post to gather my thoughts together on, seeing as the other one is gone off on a tangent. And I wanted to Gather together what I have in one cohesive Post. The Following is a list of John's seven "visions" that he saw, upon which his chronology will become self evident, and no need to put parenthesis in the text.

1 The vision of the churches (ages) Approx. Rev 1-3

2 The vision of the seals Rev. 4-8:5

3 The vision of the Trumpets Rev 8:6-11

4 The vision of the characters Rev 12-14

5 The vision of the Bowls of wrath Rev 15-16

6 the vision of the battles Rev. 17-19

7 The vision of the Millennium and eternity Rev. 20-end

Of these seven visions each is chronological within the vision itself, so for example seal one will come first, and seal two second. But each vision is distinct from the others. Each has a different start point, some 2000 years ago, some not until the final week of Revelation. The First vision serves as an introduction and stops at the beginning of the final week, the Last vision as a conclusion and starts at the end of the final week. The Other five end at the Day of the LORD.

Of those Middle five visions, There is overlap in chronology, so for example, Trumpet five can be followed by seal six and trumpet six, But never will trumpet 5 precede trumpet 4.

The start time of the visions are as follows. Dates are approximates.

1 Pentecost, 30AD

2 Resurrection 30 AD

3 Start of the final week TBD

4 At the birth of Christ 4/3 BC

5 At the sixth Trumpet TBD

6 At the fifth Trumpet TBD

7 At the end of the final week TBD

This all could have happened immediately after the resurrection of Christ, But the 2000 year church age was the mystery that was inserted into the timeline of events. Some of these things like the seals were opened immediately, but restrained as acknowledged by Paul writing For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thess. 2:7)

Thus for example the church has had to deal with things like persecution (seal 5), and pestilence (seal 4... think black plague) and False apostles (seal 1... Nicolaitans, Those who rule over the Laity) throughout church History, But they have been restrained from overcoming the church. Seal 6 and seven were never opened, because the mystery of the church age was inserted therein. At the beginning of the final week The Antichrist/Beast will be Granted Power to make war and to overcome the saints, which begins the final week.

 

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Thus for example the church has had to deal with things like persecution (seal 5), and pestilence (seal 4... think black plague)

I've seen a lot of different ways that people divide the book. I don't think all disease is the pestilence of the green horse, or that all violence is the violence of the red horse.

For me it's more like, the seals are opened, then the trumpets are sounded, then the bowls emptied, then Jesus returns.

The 2 witnesses prophecy unhindered for 3.5 years, then the beast kills them in his 3.5 years of authority, ending when Jesus comes.

The church is God's witness on earth until they are removed, then the 144,000 until they are removed, then the angels flying, and then Jesus comes.

The temple is in Jerusalem with it's worshipers inside, then the man of sin commits the AOD, then some Jews flee to the wilderness to be protected, as the rest are being slaughtered, then Jesus comes.

The 70th week is for the salvation of Israel, and not for "the purification of the church", or something like that. There isn't ONE particular generation of Christians treated differently from every other generation, is there?

No, ALL Christians have been promised persecutions and tribulations As Needed. All of us, not just one generation that gets to rise above the others, or is somehow defective where the others were not.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Example of this would be Micah 5. In The course of one paragraph we go from the messiah being born in Bethlehem and suffering to him ruling with and rising up against the Assyrian, to the battle of Armageddon. The only indication of time between these events is verse 3 which is foretelling the church age (The woman travailing). In hindsight, we know this is the mystery of the church age and the Gospel to the gentiles, But from the passage as read none expected it would last 2000 years.

Let's take a look at that. Which verses in particular do you have in mind? Can you post them, and maybe highlight where you see the church, and show the relationship to the place in Revelation that is affected?

Much love!

 

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Micah 5:1-15 KJV
1) Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
2) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
3) Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
4) And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
5) And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
6) And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
7) And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
8) And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
9) Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.
10) And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots:
11) And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strong holds:
12) And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:
13) Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.
14) And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities.
15) And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth:

I don't see how this is the church.

5) And this man shall be the peace,

I think the prophet is more describing this man then giving a prophecy with a "hidden break" in it. When such and such happens, he shall . . ."

2) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
3) Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

If verse 2 is a prophecy of the birth of Jesus, why wouldn't verse three be the same? That God is giving up Israel until Jesus is born? Isn't that what God did, not sending prophets for 400 years before Jesus' birth?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth:

I don't see how this is the church.

It is the church, and we who are the firstfruits and by extension all of creation.

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.(Romans 8:18-25)

The 70th week is for the salvation of Israel, and not for "the purification of the church", or something like that. There isn't ONE particular generation of Christians treated differently from every other generation, is there?

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

It is not that the final generation is treated different it is that the birthpangs are accelerated, and become more frequent as the urgency of the time becomes more apparent. Triubulation is birthpangs, which precedes Great tribulation, which is the birthing process (labor and delivery) After this our sorrow is turned to Joy, as the sons of God are manifested.

This is the simple outline that Jesus Gave in the Olivet discourse, even calling the events before the end, the birth pangs, and the end beginning with the AOD, the wrath of Satan being used to deliver the Sons of God. John Himself confirm that he is a partaker in the tribulation which all of us are and that the great tribulation is to come.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9

 

[marks]

It is the church, and we who are the firstfruits and by extension all of creation.

It has it's own context, and nothing to say otherwise.

Travail and birth are used as similies for various things in the Bible, the Birth pangs at the end of the age, the rebirth of Israel, discipling believers, we can't just pick out two of them because they use the same simile and declare them the same, and especially when the passage itself gives us a context which tells us what that birth is.

2) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
3) Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

This is about our lives now.

The certainty of our conformity to Christ is what leads us to purify ourselves now, in this time.

It is not that the final generation is treated different it is that the birthpangs are accelerated, and become more frequent as the urgency of the time becomes more apparent. Triubulation is birthpangs, which precedes Great tribulation, which is the birthing process (labor and delivery) After this our sorrow is turned to Joy, as the sons of God are manifested.

Very different ideas here about tribulation and the discipling of a child of God. I'll need to give some thought to give a good response here.

This is the simple outline that Jesus Gave in the Olivet discourse, even calling the events before the end, the birth pangs, and the end beginning with the AOD, the wrath of Satan being used to deliver the Sons of God. John Himself confirm that he is a partaker in the tribulation which all of us are and that the great tribulation is to come.

Again, I'd just have to say, this will be for those who are there at the time.

But yes, we are all promised tribulation. Only, not all will be on earth during THAT tribulation.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

This is about our lives now.

and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; ?????

This is where we disagree. Going back to our previous discussions you say we are complete in Him, But there is more to becoming Christlike than even you see. This is the fulness of Christ that I have spoken to you about in the past, this is the Journey of sainthood, versus Christians living in complacency. This is about vision of where we are headed as Believers, not just a focus of where we are. This is trusting in the providence of God to overcome the giants in the land as opposed to listening to the naysayers who say we are as Grasshoppers next to them.

If I instill one thing in you it is this, that you and any who read this, that you do not say we are there already, But rather that you keep running the race as Paul spoke of, that you never stop growing in the grace of God, that you do not settle with escape out slavery in the wilderness, But rather you press on in victory into the promised land fully believing in the providence of God to overcome those giants in your path. The Antichrist, the false Prophet, the mark of the beast, these are all in the path to the promised land, and we overcome them by the blood of the lamb, and the word of our testimony (Revelation 12:11) When we do, we shall be like him!

 

[marks]

and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; ?????

This passage is about our lives now:

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Believing His promise, that when we see Jesus, we will be like Jesus, seeing Him as He is, that those who have this certain expectation, the one who has this hope, this one purifies himself, even as Jesus is pure.

Knowing that at the end of our earthy lives, that we will be fully like Him, we are becoming more like Him now - in this life.

and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; ?????

This is where we disagree. Going back to our previous discussions you say we are complete in Him, But there is more to becoming Christlike than even you see. This is the fulness of Christ that I have spoken to you about in the past, this is the Journey of sainthood, versus Christians living in complacency. This is about vision of where we are headed as Believers, not just a focus of where we are. This is trusting in the providence of God to overcome the giants in the land as opposed to listening to the naysayers who say we are as Grasshoppers next to them.

We can hardly disagree, since we're talking in completely different directions.

Somehow, when I say that knowing we will be like Jesus at the end of our life here, that we purify ourselves, somehow, this, to you, means, we don't do anything. Contrary to what I just said.

So there seems to be a complete breakdown in communication.

God has promised us, we can believe His promise, and believing His promise now is the faith that brings us into more holy living. I just don't understand how this, to you, means something other that that. It seems so simple to me.

If I instill one thing in you it is this, that you and any who read this, that you do not say we are there already, But rather that you keep running the race as Paul spoke of, that you never stop growing in the grace of God, that you do not settle with escape out slavery in the wilderness, But rather you press on in victory into the promised land fully believing in the providence of God to overcome those giants in your path. The Antichrist, the false Prophet, the mark of the beast, these are all in the path to the promised land, and we overcome them by the blood of the lamb, and the word of our testimony (Revelation 12:11) When we do, we shall be like him!

Not already fully conformed to Christ? Well of course not! Mind fully renewed? Who has ever said that? Is that what you ascribe to me? Maybe this can clear things up.

When we do, we shall be like him!

That's not what it says, though. When we see Him. Don't take that away. Because the more we can come to know Him NOW, the more like Him we will be.

Much love!

 

[marks]

that you and any who read this, that you do not say we are there already,

You need to understand when I quote the Bible on this, it's God, not me saying these things.

And saying "there already" is not using language I use, nor that God uses, and so communicates what you want it to mean, and it seems to mischaracterize my words, or so it seems to me.

We are reborn completely new, and all from God. But we live in flesh bodies which war against us. We have everything we need to fight the good fight, to run the race. But unbelief makes you think you don't, and need something more.

When we know God has made us complete in Him, that we have all we need for life and godliness, when we receive and trust in His great and precious promises, these are the faith that overcomes the flesh, and the world, and sin.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

We are reborn completely new, and all from God. But we live in flesh bodies which war against us. We have everything we need to fight the good fight, to run the race. But unbelief makes you think you don't, and need something more.

When we know God has made us complete in Him, that we have all we need for life and godliness, when we receive and trust in His great and precious promises, these are the faith that overcomes the flesh, and the world, and sin.

Though I agree in large parts with what you say, let me use an analogy to explain the difference.
If I gave you a complete vehicle in Box, all the parts are there, and it is a complete vehicle, you would still have to assemble the vehicle according to the blueprint you have been given. Now you can choose not to assemble the car, or you can choose to assemble it according to your own blueprints, but what you still have the complete vehicle (all its parts) in that Box that does not run the way it is intended to, But if you choose to assemble the car, and follow the blueprints as designed, you will have a vehicle that will be useful.

Our salvation is like this, Christ is formed in us, we are given all that we need and are complete in him, But we must diligently place all those pieces in their correct position so that Christ is formed in us and we come to the fulness of Christ, and a vehicle which he can use for His kingdom. Until that happens we are just spinning our tires and not doing the will of God.

This is what the manifestation of the sons of God entails. When You think he is finished with you, is when you stop growing in the faith, when you say I have all i need is when complacency sets in and we stop growing in Grace. It is this mindset that leads to concepts such as cessationism and dead faith in the churches, churches where there is no presence of the Lord, Where He has been locked out, and the Spirit is not moving. This is the state of many churches of this day and age. It is a malady that begins with this, and the more you quench the Spirit the more He will stop doing what he is here todo for us, to bring life, The Spirit of Life (Romans 8:2, Revelation 11:11, Galatians 6:8)

 

[marks]

When You think he is finished with you,

So . . . who thinks that??

Much love!

 

[marks]

when you say I have all i need is when complacency sets in and we stop growing in Grace.

That's something very different, and again, it's not me saying it, it's God saying it. Not me. I just quote Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

when you say I have all i need is when complacency sets in and we stop growing in Grace.

When you say, "I don't have what I need", you contradict God, Who says,

2 Peter 1:3-4 KJV
3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

It's not me saying this. I'm only repeating it.

He has given us what we need for life and godliness. Everything! His self-commitment to us - promises - is sufficient for us, to partake of His nature. These are already given to us. Everything we need, and His commitment.

You're objection reminds me of Paul writing about grace, shall we sin more? Of course not! The outcome of grace is not to be sin, that's not what it's given for.

The outcome of God's gift and God's promise is not complacency, it is to be a partaker of God's divine nature, and escaping the world's corruption. If you want to make it your excuse for complacency, you can do that, like you can do with any number of things. Many twist Paul's words ignorantly, to their own hurt!

Just the same, these are things God said, and plainly spoken, there is no ambiguity, there need be no doubt.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But we must diligently place all those pieces in their correct position so that Christ is formed in us and we come to the fulness of Christ, and a vehicle which he can use for His kingdom. Until that happens we are just spinning our tires and not doing the will of God.

We must place?

1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

In saying Christ Jesus is unto us sanctification, this says to me something a little different. We work out - katergadzomai - what God is working in - ergon. We cooperate with His lead.

But I seriously believe God uses each of us for His kingdom, and in the ways which suit Him, the times that suit Him. And that we will all remain "in process" as long as we are in this earthy life, but this doesn't mean God won't use us.

We may not be as effective if we are still too wrapped up in ourselves, as that consumes our time and energy and resources better spent on others.

I see our lives as a process where we become more and more in the mind of Christ, less and less in the mind of the flesh. Walking in the Spirit, or, which is the same thing to me as thinking in the mind of Christ. Thinking according to the truth of the Bible instead of what I see or think on my own. Only according to what the Bible says.

I order my thoughts according to the plainly stated teachings of the Bible. God is love, and loves us. Sin is removed in Christ and we have eternal life in Him. Everything in life is for my good, given by my loving all powerful Creator. I'm here because it's what He wants. I'm reconciled to Him because it's what He wants, and I want it too.

So now I'm His begotten child, and I share His nature, in righteousness, my desire is for Him, to be like Him, to be pleasing to Him. In trusting that He has freed me from sin I can walk overcoming sin. I can walk in love toward everyone. I can spend my days living each moment as a special thing, a gift-moment of basking in the certainty of His love.

Thoughts are what drive feelings, and if these are your thoughts, the feelings are joy, and peace, and kindliness, gentleness. Confidence, and joyful expectation.

For myself, I still have the tendency to drift from this into the mind of the flesh. We need diligence in our minds to make sure we are discerning those fleshy thoughts. They come in our own voice, our own minds, but they are not our thoughts. The flesh deceives us with it's lusts. We think they are our own.

But as we walk in the Spirit, we do not do the works of the flesh, we do the works before ordained that we should walk in them. Though we fall from that path, I believe God is both patient and intent with us. I like that hymn, "Unresting, unhasting, and silent as light". He moves neither too fast nor too slow, but knows each one of us and what we need.

Our part is to cooperate with what He is doing, but even if we don't, still fleshy - and that's what it is, we need mind renewing - we have one of those great and precious promises, that He will chasten us, or literally, train as one trains a child. Discipline, in the sense of instilling discipline.

It is greavous, but effective, always effective to it's purpose. And afterward, the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

Who like to say they've been chastened of the Lord? I rejoice in it!! This is simply part of His renewing my mind.

"Be ye transformed" by the renewing of your mind, this is passive voice, happens to you.

OK, I just realized how much I've written, I'm sorry, I know I go on sometimes!

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

This speaks to those present at the time. Whomever they may be, whether pre-rapture, post-rapture, no difference.

It's not about my mother, for instance, who passed away some years ago. She will not see the great tribulation, nor have to experience it's sufferings and persecutions. Some object, why should one person be exempt? But usually they mean, Why should a pre-trib Christian be exempt?

It's just, whomever happens to be here at the time, and rapture timing is an entirely different issue.

Much love!

Revelation 20:1-15.
So then, who are "the rest of the dead", who "lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."?
Are they:
1. All the saved who had died in Christ?
2. All the unsaved who had died without Christ?
3. Both the saved and the unsaved?

The answer of your understanding will be driven by three factors:
A. When does/did the thousand years begin?
B. When does/did one have part in the first resurrection?
C. What/who is the First resurrection?

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 20:1-15.
So then, who are "the rest of the dead", who "lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."?
Are they:
1. All the saved who had died in Christ?
2. All the unsaved who had died without Christ?
3. Both the saved and the unsaved?

The answer of your understanding will be driven by three factors:
A. When does/did the thousand years begin?
B. When does/did one have part in the first resurrection?
C. What/who is the First resurrection?

The rest of the dead are saved believers not mentioned as coming out of the tribulation

The Souls and The Dead are both waiting upon the (First Resurrection) on the Last Day

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

While I don't believe in a pretribulation rapture anymore, because of what He's shown me in His word, I have considered these things you are saying and in a sense, heaven is turned upside down after His return and we will judge the powers and principalities, the authorities, and sometimes hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places, but scripture doesn't give us clarity on exactly where that will be from. A literal interpretation suggests that the Earth will be that location and since "the outer darkness " was an old Testament expression for those outside the camp of Israel during their wilderness journey, it is possible that His kingdom is entirely on earth, though I hope that your assumption is correct. Perhaps the fact that we can both see the same "scenario " is a confirmation of our understanding, but I can't be dogmatic or assured in "spiritualizing" passages that are given in material terms.
Thank you for your kind response and yes, it is an encouragement.

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.