No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[michaelvpardo]

The error that leads to this problem is in the assumptions made by the pretribulation adherents. The saints are clearly around until after the mark of the beast as per what is said in Revelation 14 where they are mentioned the last time on earth having to endure. So In order to explain this discrepancy they come up with a concept known as the "tribulation saints" These being ones who were rejected for the rapture.

When You point out to those same people that Jesus clearly places the rapture after the abomination of desolation and the Great tribulation Matthew 24:29-30, and this means the sixth seal is after the mark of the beast, they will try and defend it by saying Daniel 9:27 says the abomination is in the midst of the week, which is a translation discrepancy that can be explained logically and cohesively to eliminate this contradiction.

This then is confirmed By Revelation 7:14 which confirms that the great multitude has come out of the great tribulation.

Most of them will agree that revelation has jump back in time in Revelation 12, But they do not see that There are other jump backs in time. therefore they see the sixth seal as coming before the mark of the beast and the great tribulation, which again is a contradiction of Christ's own words which say immediately after the tribulation of those days referring to the Great tribulation. What does this mean then? It means revelation is not sequential as they assume, but a series of overlapping visions..... there are a total seven, and if you count the little scroll 8 such visions that overlap, each of which culminate in one day, the days of the LORD (the seven thunders).

Now that being said, I do not go to the other extreme that the postmill and preterist camps go to and say the church age is the "great tribulation" nor do I negate the dual fulfillment which occurred in 70ad of some of the events described in the Olivet discourse. Instead, I believe that there will be a final week for Israel to accomplish all the things set out in Daniel 9:24-27, and unlike the church, she will drink of the cup of the wrath of God till she is drunk, But the LORD in his mercy will spare her. The Church on the other hand will be raised and transformed at the time of the last trump.

Now the time of that last trump, is all one event, and this is where the overlapping visions come into play. Some see the rapture at the sixth seal, some at the sixth trumpet, some at the 5th vial.... what if they are all right, and that there are seven such times in revelation that are either directly spoken of or alluded to in those seven visions?

All of this leads me to conclude that the first half of the final week for Israel will be the beast ruling for 42 months instilling the mark of the beast on the world, and the church will be here for this first half of the final week AKA the great tribulation, and then the church will be glorified, while Israel will continue to drink of the cup of the wrath of God and the armies will gather around her and the LORD will Spare her.

You've got a great grip on this stuff, brother. Do you see the the Lord's return as concurrent with the resurrection of the last two witnesses?
I've started a study on the everlasting gospel and I'm hoping that the participants can wrestle out the full significance together. I see bits and pieces, but everyone with the Holy Spirit can contribute and I've never been that great of a scholar. I'm sure that you could help it along.

 

[Keraz]

Do you see the the Lord's return as concurrent with the resurrection of the last two witnesses?

Yes; I do. When Jesus Returns, He will bring the souls of all the martyrs killed during the 42 months of the Great Tribulation. Rev 20:4
Including the Witnesses and they will be brought back to mortal life.
Note well; that those resurrected at the Return are only the Trib martyrs and they do not yet receive immortality, as they may die again, as Lazarus did, but over them the second death has no power. Their names are Written in the book of Life and immortality will be theirs after the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

As for whether the Church will be present during the GT, Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-8 prove we will be.
But for those who stood strong in their faith during all that must happen, a place of safety on earth is their reward. Revelation 12:14

 

[David H.]

Do you see the the Lord's return as concurrent with the resurrection of the last two witnesses?

Yes i do.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Yes i do.

Are you able to explain doctrinal issues at a level of understanding suitable for children or perhaps teenagers to adults? I don't mean to be offensive, brother, but I do appreciate your understanding and I was once told by an older deacon after teaching an adult Sunday school class that I should bring it down a notch, more like 3rd grade.
I don't believe that you can give too much information, you don't want to insult or deprive more mature believers by talking "down" to them, but at the same time you don't want to just fly over the newbies heads either.
While I can't actually lay hands on anybody through my touch screen, I believe that I can still anoint someone to the teaching ministry through prayer and could use help guiding a group into understanding the everlasting gospel and its implications for the millennial kingdom. This has suddenly become important and a priority to the Lord, which I find exciting and encouraging. We could use you brother. I find the most effective means of teaching asking questions and pointing to passages to examine. Some people just aren't interested in reading long posts with laid out scripture and explanations and it's best if the Lord teaches them the answers through the study, but it requires wisdom (readily available from our Lord) and sometimes applications , examples, and even testimony to clarify points.
Interested?

 

[Timtofly]

I Just read a bunch of your posts, and boy are they full of "human imagination" and lacking scriptural basis. Perhaps you cannot see this in your own comments.... for example: "the week of the 7th Trumpet" please tell me where this is found in scripture, or is this just a figment of the imagination? I Can't seem to find that, I can find the seventy weeks, I can find midsts of or for half the week, i can find the seventh trumpet, but not the "week of the seventh trumpet"

Daniel 9:27 declares 1 week. Revelation 10 declares the sounding is for days. It is not a single sound. It last for the whole week mentioned in Daniel 9:27.

There are 2 other week long events in History. The first carried out by Joshua a type of Christ defeating Jericho with the sounds of Trumpets. The Second is the week of the Cross, when Messiah is cut off in the middle of the week. The final week is the transition between Adam's 6000 years of punishment where sin was in the world, and the Millennium where sin and Satan are no longer allowed to ruin humanity for 1,000 years. That is what the Millennium is all about.

 

[David H.]

Are you able to explain doctrinal issues at a level of understanding suitable for children or perhaps teenagers to adults? I don't mean to be offensive, brother, but I do appreciate your understanding and I was once told by an older deacon after teaching an adult Sunday school class that I should bring it down a notch, more like 3rd grade.
I don't believe that you can give too much information, you don't want to insult or deprive more mature believers by talking "down" to them, but at the same time you don't want to just fly over the newbies heads either.
While I can't actually lay hands on anybody through my touch screen, I believe that I can still anoint someone to the teaching ministry through prayer and could use help guiding a group into understanding the everlasting gospel and its implications for the millennial kingdom. This has suddenly become important and a priority to the Lord, which I find exciting and encouraging. We could use you brother. I find the most effective means of teaching asking questions and pointing to passages to examine. Some people just aren't interested in reading long posts with laid out scripture and explanations and it's best if the Lord teaches them the answers through the study, but it requires wisdom (readily available from our Lord) and sometimes applications , examples, and even testimony to clarify points.
Interested?

I Have not given much thought to the everlasting Gospel, I know it is preached by the first angel in Revelation 14, and suspect it is the Gospel we will preach as a "royal priesthood" in the millennial Kingdom. I Also Know he is preparing many of us for these roles, both as end time ministers and saints and to be millennial priests of His. I Have Spoken to many who are being refined in such a way in these days as we approach the end of days.

I Also know that the saints will Judge the world, and the angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3) I believe this is when the saints make up the army of the Lord and execute judgment as he comes riding on the White horse. All those injustices perpetrated on those saints will be vindicated, all the thievery and false scales being used to rob people of their wealth and enslave them to make others rich will be restored, much like the year of Jubilee was commanded by the Old covenant every 50th year. In Fact the whole millennial kingdom will be like one big long Jubilee year. Is this what the everlasting gospel is? I do not know.

What i do know is where we are at, and what events are on the horizon. We are squarely in the birth pangs, and they are increasing, many are falling away from the faith and will easily worship the beast when he declares himself God for they "Love not the Truth" which is why I lament the direction prophecy forums go, trying to prove their agenda over actually desiring the unadulterated truth of the Word of God and Being taught by the Holy Ghost. He sent me with two simple messages, and with no desire for self glory, those messages are "can the teacher be taught", and "It is not about me being right, but US getting it right". These two messages have a broad set of meanings the first is about learning to be receptive to the revelation of the Holy Ghost, which the church has largely lost due to the reaction of fundamentalism to the encroaching worldliness in the church (Textualism) The second is about attitude and fellowship and unity of the Spirit in the Body of Christ. When He called me, he said i would be like Balaam's donkey, warning people while they try to beat me into submission, so I expect opposition and because i see the outstretched sword of the angel of the Lord, I tend to be stubborn and unyielding. This being my calling.

 

[Timtofly]

..I'll give you a clue: "tribulation saints" being the tares of the church in turn become saints, contradicting the words of Christ Jesus who said the tares will be burned in the fire of wrath, while the wheat is taken into the barn and refined by the tribullum of the threshing floor.

The wheat is the tribulation redeemed. The tares are people with the incorrect doctrines now. They never make it period. They are decieved their whole blissful self righteous lives.

 

[David H.]

Daniel 9:27 declares 1 week. Revelation 10 declares the sounding is for days. It is not a single sound. It last for the whole week mentioned in Daniel 9:27.

There are 2 other week long events in History. The first carried out by Joshua a type of Christ defeating Jericho with the sounds of Trumpets. The Second is the week of the Cross, when Messiah is cut off in the middle of the week. The final week is the transition between Adam's 6000 years of punishment where sin was in the world, and the Millennium where sin and Satan are no longer allowed to ruin humanity for 1,000 years. That is what the Millennium is all about.

None of those passages say "week of the seventh trumpet" Nor do they imply that this is how long it sounds. Revelation 10:7 just points to the day it will sound not saying how long the blast will last. Now of course Joshua marched around Jericho for seven days, But even then the Seventh trumpet blast lasted one day.

The Point being, Revelation is ripe with imagery that takes imagination to fully understand. You yourself place this imagination in your understanding and we all do. In Fact the way i see revelation is as a picture being painted in front of John, a giant landscape (Think Art Ross painting happy little trees) First he begins with large brushstrokes to paint the background and then more details and characters are added until the picture is complete. It is all one picture of the day of the Lord, and there is a time element to it but there is overlap to it, and it is the work of a Great artist with all kinds of nuance and detail that we can easily overlook if we do not examine the picture closely. Seeing this image is the blessing of this book.

God Bless.

 

[Timtofly]

All of this leads me to conclude that the first half of the final week for Israel will be the beast ruling for 42 months instilling the mark of the beast on the world, and the church will be here for this first half of the final week AKA the great tribulation, and then the church will be glorified, while Israel will continue to drink of the cup of the wrath of God and the armies will gather around her and the LORD will Spare her.

This cannot be the first half. Armageddon is the end of all things period. There is no second half of bliss after Armageddon. There is no second half of wrath after Armageddon. Armageddon is the end of Satan's 42 months, many want to call the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the Trumpets and Thunders. Satan does not get his 42 months in the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

Satan may get 42 months if the 7th Trumpet is interrupted. Notice the 7th Trumpet sounds in chapter 11. Chapter 13 only happens after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. Chapter 13 is not the days of the 7th Trumpet, meaning leading up to. Chapter 13 is during the days people hear the sound. The sound starts and keeps going for 3 days confirming the Covenant. Daniel claims the week is split. John claims Satan gets 42 months. This is still future. Will the week be split? No one can know for sure, until the Covenant is confirmed.

The way the church is acting, they just expect the worse and seem to look forward to Satan being in control. The church seems obsessed with wanting to see an AC. That is an unhealthy obsession.

Instead of repenting and turning from wickedness and seeking God's face, they like Solomon prefer the riches of carnal life which will split the kingdom and keep many in the chains of sin. Instead of this wicked life being over, and the Millennium starts, we get 42 months of Satan in control of the vineyard.

Chapter 13 does not have to happen. We can go directly to chapter 14, and skip these 42 months that end at Armageddon. Babylon will still fall during the 7th Trumpet. This world will be cleansed and the Millennium will still start. The Millennium does not need to be kick started with Satan's 42 months. This world already went through the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders while Christ and the angels gathered the final harvest of human souls. Yes, the 6th Seal was Christ coming to gather the final harvest. That is the claim made by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. The separation of sheep and goats is the final harvest. The gathering of the tares and wheat is the final harvest. Any one is free to miss meeting Christ in the air prior to the first Trumpet. All the rest can be patient and see how God sees them. As sheep, wheat, tares, or goats.

God forbid this earth needs Satan to come in and harvest the vineyard for 42 months. All those patient people can now get their head chopped off. If you think that is just my imagination, go for it. Put my imagination to the test, and prove me wrong. Or point out how you can change the chronology of Revelation with your imagination? Prove Jesus does not kill every last soul at Armageddon, because they all have the mark, and have been removed from the Lamb's book of life. They are the Dead of the dead.

Show me one verse that claims people who escape having their heads chopped off, also escape the mark. Revelation 20 says those beheaded are resurrected. The rest of the dead live not again until the GWT. Do you want to be dead in sheol for 1000 years and then stand at the GWT? That is a long time to endure to prove to God you now accept Him.

People who claim to avoid every resurrection offered, and want that one at the GWT, must think sheol is the greatest place to spend time in. Some even imagine there is no Millennium to make time spent in sheol shorter. The whole point is they are in sheol. Not the length.

If one second is the difference in resurrections and the claim is that resurrection is only spiritual, why are some resurrected to sheol? It takes way more imagination to change Scripture to fit some eschatology. There was a resurrection at the Cross. There is a resurrection in Revelation 20:4. Some imagine a resurrection at the GWT. Yet all those mentioned at the GWT seem to go to the Lake of Fire. Do some imagine those in sheol at the GWT get to live forever with God? What is Paradise for since the Cross? When do we rule and reign in Paradise? A resurrection is the removal from death, physical as well as spiritual. Even posters here need a resurrection or a translation that changes them from death to life. One needs a resurrection to enter the Millennium. How can any one be translated from Armageddon into the Millennium?

 

[marks]

I just have a woodburning stove with a glass window which helps me keep comfortable in the cold weather. I do like watching the fire sometimes, but I only split a few big pieces today and I'm whooped. The axe wasn't bad but the adz felt extra heavy today. I won't be able to do such labor much longer, but I bought this place to be near my surviving brother and within driving distance to my former wife (she just always needs help.) Never thought I'd live in a house made of cedar, but it's nice even without a proper oven or laundry and borders state forests so I get lots of 4 legged guests. I even have two stray cats that are annoyingly friendly, when they circle my feet. I'm hoping that I can make a few dollars when I sell, but my next place will most likely be a condo or retirement home.
I liked it out west when I was in the service and I'd love to explore Utah a bit, but my body likes it warmer than the Northeast. I just hope that there's something left to move to with the droughts and fierce fires consuming everything in their path. I've never owned a quality telescope and it would be pleasant to spend some time in the cool evening air of a desert with a big clear open sky. Its pretty awesome if you've never tried that, even without a telescope. I guess there won't be any stars to look at during the millennium and that just makes me sad. I've been considering using the last of my retroactive pay increases to buy a used camper so I can travel and stay here and there for a while, but I dont have anyone to feed my wildlife friends and I dont think the cats would care to leave their territory either.
Oh well, I suppose that if it's the Lord's will, he'll make the way and provide all I need. I expect great things at His hands during sukkot this year, but I'm hoping that He isn't coming back just yet. I really need a vacation from my retirement.

That all sounds VERY nice!

I haven't been able to do much stargazing in recent years, but I live near the Mojave desert, and remember many late nights in the desert watching the sky. And it seems there was always something unusual too.

We'd always get such a late start, we'd end up driving in the desert in the middle of the night. We saw one of the closer comets, 3 stages of booster rocket, one night was 5 or 6 fireballs, over the mountains, dwarfing the mountains.

My brother and I when we were kids used to lay outside the tent in our mummy bags, I remember looking up at the milky way, framed by all the tall trees.

Now I live in the middle of LA suburbia, and if we drive half an hour, we can walk on an unpaved hill.

God will lead us both in a good way, and in the right time, receive us home to His glory!

Much love!

 

[marks]

marks said: ↑
Revelation 6:12 KJV
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Do You know what sackcloth is? mesh, sackcloth, sack, sacking H8242 - śaq - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
It is a loosely woven mesh material that is done so purposely to allow water to drain out of it, Think Burlap, the color of the thread makes no difference, as it is a semi-permeable membrane which includes light.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, I'm familiar with what sackcloth is, though I've never seen sackcloth from 2000 years ago.

The passage says the sun became black as sackcloth, with is similar to the Joel passage of "before the Day of the LORD".

Joel 2:31 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Revelation 6:12 KJV
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

In the Joel prophecy, the prophet states what will be done, the sun turned to darkness and the moon into blood.

John describes what he saw in his vision, a vision of Joel's prophecy being fulfilled as the sun is darkened, and the moon becomes as blood.

And these two passages speak of the same thing, a dark sun, and a blood moon.

Whereas Jesus' prophecy is different.

Matthew 24:29 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

While before the Day of the LORD the sun was darkened and the moon made as blood, now when Jesus returns neither sun nor moon shall give any light.

At the sixth seal, it's the warning of impending wrath, but when Jesus returns, it's 'light's out' in the universe, and only Jesus shall be light in that day.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Seriously, how can The Body Of CHRIST "enter Into JACOB's
Trouble, with The Gospel Of GRACE," And, this angel NOT be ACCURSED, "preaching a
Different Gospel?

That's an interesting point! I want to look at that more closely.

Much love!

 

[marks]

When God "Resumes HIS Prophetic Program," The Everlasting gospel of the kingdom
Will be preached by 144,000 "sealed" Jews, TWO powerful "witnesses" AND by an
angel (Revelation 14 : 6!) Seriously, how can The Body Of CHRIST "enter Into JACOB's
Trouble, with The Gospel Of GRACE," And, this angel NOT be ACCURSED, "preaching a
Different Gospel?

An aside . . . (I guess we do that sometimes around here)

Matthew 10:5-42 KJV
5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9) Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10) Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11) And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12) And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13) And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15) Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

This part above best applied to the disciples, and the 70 which Jesus sent out.

16) Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17) But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18) And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19) But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20) For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

This part above best applied to the apostles, sent by Jesus after His return to heaven. The disciples and the 70 were not delivered up to councils, they came back happy and successful.

The apostles, and those in the apostolic times, they were.

21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I think this part above will apply to these 144,000, as the language now mirrors the Olivette Discourse, and speaks of Jesus coming for them, as in Revelation 14 they gather to Zion, and sing before the throne of God.

And this part below, I think will apply to those during the Great Tribulation,

24) The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25) It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26) Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27) What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30) But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31) Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

I think this part below has direct bearing to the Sheep/Goat judgment.

40) He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41) He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Like I said, just an aside . . . And not to say we don't learn from these passages, or that we should ignore them regarding us, or anything like that.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Notice the 7th Trumpet sounds in chapter 11. Chapter 13 only happens after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. Chapter 13 is not the days of the 7th Trumpet, meaning leading up to. Chapter 13 is during the days people hear the sound.

Please do not take offence at what I say here, I am making a point. This is the sort of linear thinking that leads to the novice understanding of Revelation and is what false teachers and Nicolaitans feed off of. It is shallow and juvenile, and shows an inability to grasp this book in all its dimensions. Take for example the 144k they are discussed twice, once in Revelation 7 and once in Revelation 14.... are they the same event or different? The Rapture is discussed in Revelation 4, Revelation 6, Revelation 10, and 11 and is alluded to in Revelation 14, are they all the same event, or multiple raptures? If I am writing a story, I will introduce you to the hero of the story and then some of the bit characters before introducing the villain and the conflict of the story. That story has a climax and each character has a role in that conflict and climax and their story may be told in from their perspective. In The past, I used the example of the Old airplane disaster movies to explain this. Each passenger is shown beginning their day preparing for the same flight later that night, but each story is somewhat different, and they all point to the same event they all get on the same plane, the all face the same bad circumstance. Some eat the fish that make them gravely sick, while others do not. You should get my point.

For whatever reason, we read novels this way and watch movies this way and can grasp the plots of these stories in three dimensions, but when it comes to reading Revelation we approach it with linear 2 dimensional thinking like you have done, and fail to grasp the overlap, and how these overlaps explain certain events more in depth than just the surface reading, showing how seals and trumpets are related to one another, How 1/3rd becomes all, and how all the thunders line up, etc. You are in fact missing out on the full scope of understanding this book offers the believer, a picture of the day of the LORD, a picture of the day of Christ preceding this, where judgment begins at the house of God, a Picture which is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, as King of Kings and LORD of Lords.

I Am trying to encourage you to try and grasp this depth of the vision, Let the Holy Ghost teach you, not the carnal mind, To open your Spiritual eyes to all that this vision has to reveal to us, Which is Christ Jesus. You can always go back to your linear thinking if you feel so compelled. But once He begins to show you the depth of the meaning you will hunger for more, More of the truth you have been missing out on.

 

[David H.]

At the sixth seal, it's the warning of impending wrath, but when Jesus returns, it's 'light's out' in the universe, and only Jesus shall be light in that day.

I See it as an unwinding process, first a 1/3rd at the fourth trumpet, then darkened and then lights out in a short period of time, the darkness before the dawn so to speak, it is all the same event after the great tribulation described in multiple passages all leading to the seven thunders. That is when we are to "Look up, for our redemption draweth nigh" (Luke 21:28)

Read that passage from Luke 21 as this adds more to this being a process, and how it distresses the nations.

 

[marks]

When we have a lunar eclipse, the light of the moon becomes orange and red, correct? It is not giving it's light like it normally does, correct? As it is in the shadow of the earth, correct?

The prophecy for when Jesus returns is that the moon will not give light. Not white light, or red light, or any light. No light. In the one case red light, in the other case red light.

And while eclipses may be involved, I don't know if they will be or not, like we've been saying. Either way, I don't like to interpret a word in the Bible differently from it's normal and customary meaning because it seems to me that something should be happening in some certain way.

I simply read the text, and if it says blood here, and dark there, I realize I'm looking at two different things. And it's not like that exists in a vacuum, the thing is, if they were the same, I find numerable conflicts between other passages. These conflicts all go away when I realize they are different, one before, and one at the end of the 70th week of Daniel.

What does it mean to your theory to admit that i might be right, and these two passages are speaking of the same event? It throws a whole series of contradictions into the pretrib viewpoint that you cannot handle, correct?

Lot's of deconstruction to do here. I don't have a theory. And what influences my understanding of Scripture is primarily Scripture itself. "Admitting you might be right" is more representative of how your mind works than of mine. The two passages are distinctly different, and I don't conflate them. You see them the same, and many people do. I've examined the implications in both cases over the many years I've studied this. Do you have something specific in mind about the implications either way?

So You have to separate these two events, and in turn you have to say Christ's second coming is two comings as many like to surmise,

OK, now you are getting back into logical fallacies, in these case the accusation of Intellectual Dishonesty, so I'm going to stop now. If there was something you wanted to come back to, I'm not even reading further, you can restate this part if you wish, or forget about it, enough is enough.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

This is a whole new way to approach Revelation, one that even the brightest minds have not been able to see (such as Newton and Davinci), That has been sealed (The seven thunders) until the time of the end.

New? So not how John saw it?

How can you see it, if it is still future? John was writing as he witnessed the events. We have proof, because he started to write after the 7 Thunders finished:

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Why would John change the way he did things?

He witnessed the 7 Seals. He wrote them down. He witnessed the 6 Trumpets, and wrote them down. He witnessed the 7 Thunders, and was about to write them down, but was stopped from doing so. This is not the Christmas Carol where John saw the past, present, and future. He was in the present of his day when writing about the 7 churches. Some of those things would shortly come to pass. Only after the first 3 chapters, was John sent by the Holy Spirit to a future time. Time that today was/is still future. Jesus has started to open the 7 Seals.

How can they be the same event if John wrote down what he saw as he saw the events in order? John used the word "after" several times. We do not even know the events of the Thunders. Now people want to claim even the vials that happen at the end of Satan's 42 months are the same event as the Seals?

Satan's 42 months is not the same as being loosed in Revelation 20. Satan is bound after the 42 months for 1000 years. This is not a time loop, reality cannot escape. Nor can the 1000 years be this current time, before Satan even has 42 months. And people claim I post sci-fi imagination? Some amil have to think Satan had time in the first century, was bound, and will be loosed again for another time soon. John did not even witness Satan and the FP, until after the Second Coming and the final harvest. John never declares Armageddon is the Second Coming. That is an assumption of those who claim they know the day and hour of the Second Coming. Jesus claims no man can know that. By this claim of Jesus, we can know, Armageddon is not the Second Coming.

No one still can know the day and hour of the Second Coming. No one on earth will even know when the Seals are being opened until after the 6th Seal, and the Second Coming reveals many things. I think many will sense they are being opened, especially during the tribulation of those days when the 4th Seal is opened. 25% of humanity under current population is near 2 billion. Even if some think 25% of earth is decimated, which 25%? The part of earth people live on? That would take out more than 2 billion lives.

 

[Timtofly]

I expect great things at His hands during sukkot this year, but I'm hoping that He isn't coming back just yet. I really need a vacation from my retirement.

Would not the Second Coming be a better vacation from this dead life?

 

[marks]

This is the sort of linear thinking that leads to the novice understanding of Revelation and is what false teachers and Nicolaitans feed off of. It is shallow and juvenile, and shows an inability to grasp this book in all its dimensions.

At least it's not personal! You are rude and insulting to others also.

 

[David H.]

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. (Revelation 22:10)

Just because John did not write what the seven thunders said, does not mean they are not contained in the book of Revelation.... in fact this is the key that unlocks the book.... let me help you a bit, what is it like when the LORD comes and visits the people:

And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. (Exodus 19:16)

Read what the day of the LORD looks like in the old Testament and you will see this in the book of Revelation, and you will see the seven thunders here is the search for the Phrase "Day of the LORD" at the BLB so you can easily read those verses.
KJV Search Results for "day" AND "of" AND "the" AND "Lord" (blueletterbible.org)