I am making a point. Linear thinking is juvenile, There is a reason why Revelation has been hard to unlock because the rational mind is linear as opposed to multidimensional. I even asked the reader not to be offended by this comment for i knew it would draw ire, but it was not even addressed to you, so why should you take offense? Emotions run deep i guess?
No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming
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I am making a point. Linear thinking is juvenile, There is a reason why Revelation has been hard to unlock because the rational mind is linear as opposed to multidimensional. I even asked the reader not to be offended by this comment for i knew it would draw ire, but it was not even addressed to you, so why should you take offense? Emotions run deep i guess?
It doesn't mean they aren't, and it doesn't mean they are. What it means is John didn't write them. And that was because God didn't want them written.
So let's consider a moment whether they might be written elsewhere in the book.
John wrote the book of the Revelation. Jesus told John to write it, and so I believe John did. John heard the seven thunders and was about to write, and was told not to.
Did John later disobey? No he did not.
But for you, this is a "key" - that YOU KNOW what the 7 thunders spoke, and now YOU UNDERSTAND the secrets and mysteries of the Revelation, and how we mustn't take it for what it says, but we need to understand some words mean differently then the word used, and otherwise we won't get it.
What unlocks the book, if you really want to know, is to read it to know Jesus.
Much love!
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
How can the two witnesses be caught up into heaven hours prior to Armageddon, and Armageddon happen at the same time?
Satan's 42 months start at the 7th Trumpet. How can the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders happen after the 7th Trumpet sounds?
If the 7th Trumpet sounds at the 6th Seal, it would be the first Trumpet heard, but cannot be the 7th time a Trumpet is heard. Unless the Trumpets are countdowns, the 7th Trumpet being the first time a Trumpet is heard. I do not see this as being what John witnessed. There is no recap of going back and giving more details than what has already been stated. If the archangel with the 7th Trumpet makes a sound at the Second Coming of the 6th Seal, John does not mention that. Jesus and Paul indicate that thought. John symbolizes what being glorified is in the 5th Seal. This is not the same event as Revelation 20:4, that can only happen after the final harvest, and Satan's 42 months.
Satan does not even get 42 months, until after the final harvest, the GT. Christ is personally on earth during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. That there will be humans going around claiming that Christ is here is promised. Humans will be attempting to impersonate Christ, after getting over the shock of the Second Coming. All will know who the real Christ is, but then be decieved by Satan. Satan may even make the news trying to convince the world of his own antichrist. There will be and have been many such attempts. The same happened during the first 3.5 years of Jesus on earth in the first century.
You keep going back to projecting emotionalism, but I understand that is just to try to take the focus from your behavior.
Apparently you think you can be as rude as you want, so long as you throw in a prophylactic apology.
Much love!
Are you aware, you can control your emotional affect? That emotions are responses to thoughts? That if you control your thoughts, you control your emotions? So if you think according to Scripture, your emotion is joy?
Much love!
Is that so?
Prophetic narrative is linear, otherwise, you would begin to be able to make sense of it.
The first angel sounded, and the second angel sounded, and the third angel sounded.
You can argue, this doesn't say that the first angel sounded BEFORE the second. And I've even debated this with people who have them all mixed around, these trumpets before those seals, oh, and this trumpet after that bowl, and like that.
However, in saying, "the first", "the second", and so on, it puts them in a sequence, and what is it that makes the sequence of these angels? They are the ones sounding the trumpets. So then the first is the first, and the second is the second, and the prophetic narrative procedes just like you'd think given a natural reading of it, this one, then that one, then that one, and so on.
To say "linear thinking is juvenile" is to impugn someone for "thinking linear", but says absolutely nothing about the Bible. It doesn't describe others either, since the statement is false on it's face. It desribes you in your willingness to say those sorts of things to others, calling them shallow and juvenile instead of just debating the view.
This is really a matter for some serious thought.
Much love!
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I have no imagination. I see John writing things down after the fact. I see Christ coming at the 6th Seal, just as He claimed in the Olivet Discourse.
Revelation 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Days is plural. It does not say in the day of the sound. So to see how many days, one must point to Daniel 9:27. Gabriel claims 1 week. Do I have enough "so called" imagination to know Gabriel is the Archangel with the Trump of God? Gabriel was the Archangel who announced the birth of Jesus. Gabriel was the messenger who told Daniel all about the future 70th week.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince.
These are the words of God given by Gabriel.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The moon is a light under it's own ability. Science teaches otherwise. The sun becoming dark and the moon blood, is the effect caused by the Lord Adonai on the throne being revealed on earth, not just the Lamb. Neither the sun nor moon will have their own light shining. Darkness and blood is just symbolic of embarrassment. They literally will not be seen. They will be embarrassed at their inability. That is what the prophecy is portraying. Jesus is giving the literal facts. Even the sign according to Jesus is the actual son of man in the sky, just as the angels promised at the ascension. By the time people upon the earth see the sign, it will be too late to prepare. The foolish will have no time to refill their lamps.
I get it brother, but of all the people with sound doctrine floating around these forums, the Lord pointed you out to me and I haven't seen a single thing that you've written which I would disagree with.
I've preached and taught in churches after a pastor laid hands on me and prayed with me for the purpose. He was a pastor emeritus from a sister church that was filling in for a year or so until we found a full time replacement . When we finally hired a new pastor, he pretty much accepted me in an elder's role until we appointed, with the approval of the church, three new elders. However, I was called to be a prophet to the church, not for "new revelation " as some complain, but for course correction, recognizing and addressing problems, and over the last 20 years or so I did some church hopping by the Lord's leading, always to a church with pastoral problems. The church at large would be far more united if the prophets the Lord sends were accepted and heard, rather than being ostracized. I've chatted on line with more than a few, and many have become bitter in their silence, which is never a good thing.
Some of us are good at recognizing gifts and callings in other people, but like the old saying, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
Pray on it and see what the Lord would have you do.
Well, like I said, if we take a literal interpretation of scripture regarding the millennial kingdom, there won't be stars to gaze at in the night sky, possibly for a thousand years or more. I'm getting old, have health issues, and permanent soft tissue and nerve damage (never broke a bone though) and labor exhausts me pretty quickly. I usually can't put in more than 4 hours or so physical work. Ministry can be pleasant when dealing with mature believers, but undisciplined lone rangers, the spiritually immature, cultic pretenders, and the like just leave me feeling drained all the time. There's nothing wrong with traveling about and just being sociable with people that you meet. You'd be surprised how often a casual conversation can turn to the Lord.
Back when I was a member at Grace Tabernacle, we even welcomed at least one itinerant preacher to give an evening message and receive gifts from the congregation to help him pay his way. Sometimes an outside voice brings clarity to internal issues and the Spirit of prophesy does work in such a manner. Of course there have always been charlatans living off the church deceptively, but God can even use them and the word spoken, to reach people who hear Him. That's the thing about the word, it doesn't return to Him void.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I can see the depth. Still not chronologically out of order. Each event is separate for a particular reason God has in His plan. Revelation is not a novel. It has depth of character. It has character development. No, each mention of the characters is not one singular event. The characters come and go.
The way I see Revelation is seven visions, so yes the seals are sequential with one another, but the trumpets are another vision which jumps back, which is why I can put the fourth trumpet as a precursor event to the sixth seal. So For example, in the past few years there have been large coronal holes in the sun, which can be seen in the certain wavelengths of light which have scientists perplexed. I Believe this is a progressive darkening and will shock the world as to the ramifications as spoken of by Luke 21 "distress of nations". I Believe also that the four pillars that are shaken are the four forces that hold all things together, the weak force, the strong force, electromagnetic forces, and Gravitons, which will destabilyze the material world and heavens and reveal the Spiritual world (But that is another point). I Believe all of these things add up to a series of events described in Revelation and climax at the day of the Lord. Take the time to read now the seventh seal, the seventh trumpet, the seventh vial, as well as Revelation 14 and the two harvests, the fall of Babylon and the harlot riding the beast they all have the same language as the visitation of the Lord on the people on the mountain in Exodus, they all point to the prophecies of the day of the Lord in the OT. "Lightning, thunder/thunders hailstones great hail, earthquakes, great earthquakes, smoke, wrath, the sword, this is when you will see the seven thunders, a phrase i use for lack of a better one and since there are seven such events in Revelation.
As for Prophecy and being linear, from old testament Prophecy this is not always true. Prophecy is not always sequential, for example a prophecy in the Old testament can jump from the first coming to the second coming back to a near term fulfillment for the nation of Israel in one passage. Jesus Himself quoting Isaiah ascribed certain parts of the Passage to himself and left off others referring to the second coming (Isaiah 61 If my memory serves me correctly?) The apostle quoted parts of Joel's passage to describe Pentecost yet left off the parts of the Latter rain as we discussed previously on another thread from the same passage..... Point being that a passage of prophecy is not limited by time and space, as God does not operate under the constraints of time and space. John Himself was instructed to write what has been what is and what is to come in Revelation, past present and future events from his time of writing in 90-95AD. Like I said I believe the first horsemen was loosed right after Christ ascended and is proven by the questions in heaven asking who is worthy to open the seals and none being found until Christ came in. I Believe all the first five were unsealed and continue on to this day and are increasing as birth pangs do, But the only one that has a "time" or a quantity element is the fifth seal, which is a number to be killed: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers[fn] should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev. 6:11, ESV) The final number being fulfilled by the antichrist who makes war on the saints and overcomes them, killing them, imprisoning them etc. This alone almost shows that the Antichrist must rule before our redemption can occur. do you understand this?
So as you can see Prophecy is far more complex than you make it out to be, and this began in the Old testament, It is anything but Linear, in fact i believe it is Isaiah which is totally backwards, having more to do with the second advent in its earlier chapters and more to do with the first advent in the later chapters. And each of the Prophecies in all the Old testament Prophecies stand alone rather than being sequential with one another, why is it that we read Revelation as a sequential prophecy then? For example, the oft quoted Isaiah 53 is the first advent, while Isaiah 11:6ff describes the millennial reign of Christ, and we do not see these as linear prophecies.
So what then forces you to ascribe sequence on Revelation when there is none in all other biblical prophecy.
Here is a simple timeline of how I view things.
tribulation=birthpangs the first five seals which are increasing in severity and will continue to in the coming years. Pandemics, hyperinflation, the collapsing fiat currency will likely all play a role in the coming years, This is the church age (See Revelation 1:9)
The great tribulation= 42 months in which the beast and the false prophet rule making war on the saints which is the tribulation on steroids aka the wrath of Satan. The saints are to be killed while there is protection for the woman in the wilderness (The children of the faith)
Jacob's trouble=The wrath of God Phase, the church is redeemed 144k sealed, armies gather around Jerusalem. 1260 days or 1290 days?
The latter 2 make up the final week for Israel.
None of these are the rapture of the church. If you look at each one, none are speaking of catching up those who are In Christ, and each actually speak of something else.
If you try to interpret them as the rapture, then you'll get poor understandings, also, you'll miss what they are actually about. We want to read these for what they say, and not read into them.
Revelation 4, for instance, if you think of John being called through a doorway into heaven as being the rapture of the church, then you have to make the rapture look like that, instead of how Paul describes in Thessalonians. It creates conflicts.
Much love!
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I don't know, but. I think the alter was set up in Paradise when the animal was shed for the skins of Adam and Eve. Abel used the same alter. I think Cain slew Abel on that alter.
Jesus said from the blood of Abel to that of Zechariah. I think John was just connecting the souls to the alter in Paradise. All souls can relate to that alter though, not just martyrs.
Interesting idea about Cain and Abel, I've not heard that before.
Genesis 4:8 KJV
And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
My thinking on the souls under the altar is that these are they who's sins are covered by sacrifice, ei. the first covenant, Israel, those who were martyred. I think those who are to be added to their number will be the Israelites martyred during the seventieth week.
Revelation 15:2-4 KJV
2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4) Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
These are the martyrs from the tribulation.
These are not:
Revelation 7:9-10 KJV
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Much love!
If you are looking for the commonality of expressions used in both prophecy and extraordinary events in the Bible, you need to expand much further than those.
I think that's part of the difficulty and why there are so many very different eschatologies out there, it's the tendency for every great earthquake to be the same earthquake, even though they are described to have different effects, or to have different properties.
The whole moon debate for instance, the properties are different, yet you maintain they are the same thing.
Or another example, the sixth seal earthquake. There is an earthquake at the end of the 70th week, and many people declare these are the same. This is another example where I recommend paying attention to the details. Every detail given is there for a reason.
Revelation 6:12-14 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 16:17-20 KJV
17) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
This second one is the greatest ever earthquake, but that by itself doesn't mean it's not the same as the first. However, in the sixth seal quake, every island and mountain were "moved from their locations", while in the 7th bowl earthquake, every island fled, and the mountains were not found.
Changing your location, and being removed completely, these let us know. And the more closely you look at the statements and the surrounding context, the more clear this is.
If you were to make these the same earthquake, as some do, more conflicts arise.
Much love!
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Precious friend, maybe this will help encourage/cheer you up! I have worked
on my own personal "study" of the rapture Controversy, and, after 18 months
of work, developed 17 Sections Of God's Scriptures Confirming {for me,
anyway}, that I "Will Be Leaving earth {awake}/or resurrected
{from my sleep}," In A PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure!
Since you are saddened about not "seeing stars during the millennium," I
went ahead and developed The Following, and added it to my "study":
Part 18 Addendum to Great GRACE Departure
Since the hope of The Body Of CHRIST is Heavenly…
(2 Corinthians 5 : 1; 2 Corinthians 5 : 2; Ephesians 1 : 3; Ephesians 1 : 20:
Ephesians 2 : 6; Philippians 3 : 20; Colossians 1 : 5; 2 Timothy 4 : 18 KJB!)
...and Paul Also says “...know ye not that ye shall judge angels?…”
(1 Corinthians 6 : 3a)
Do all PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure believers agree, that our
Bema Seat Judgment Of CHRIST is There, In Heaven, and some of the
Eternally saved will “lose rewards” and others will “receive rewards”?
(1 Corinthians 3 : 7-15)
Do all PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure believers agree that part of
“the rewards” are the following?:
“If we suffer, we shall also reign with HIM...” (2 Timothy 2 : 12a)
------------------------------------------
Now, with this in mind, let us peruse the possibilities of the Real Estate
“where we might reign.” Most assume we are returning to earth to rule
and reign. So, two things are open for prayerful/Careful Consideration:
(1) Being in heaven, being judged {losing rewards, or receiving rewards},
then, we “leave Heaven With CHRIST, being ONE of His armies,”
Correct?:
“And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white
horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19 : 14)
ONE of those armies is ALL the angels, Correct?:
When The Son of man Shall Come In His Glory, and ALL the holy angels
with Him, then Shall He Sit Upon The Throne Of His Glory:
(Matthew 25 : 31)
Now, I dislike making assumptions, so, going out on a limb here,
I will, According to All The Scriptural Evidence that I currently
understand, either make a presumption, Or, make a conclusion that:
The Other army Is The Body Of CHRIST. Agree?
Now, do we, The Body Of CHRIST, “come to the earth with Him,
to rule and reign” (as Most assume?}, Or:
Should we not First Consider This Scripture?:
“And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies,
gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse,
and against His army.” (Revelation 19 : 19)
Why Did God Change from the PLURAL armies when
"He Left Heaven," to:
A SINGULAR army, when He “Arrived On earth”?
Is it Quite Possible, Considering ALL The Above Evidence about the
“Heavenly Uplook” of The Body Of CHRIST, That “He Assigned us
our Heavenly positions” {left vacant by the fallen angels}, On The Way?
And, Contrary to assumptions, we {The Body Of CHRIST} DON’T “come
BACK to the earth” at all? Leaving only the ONE army of ALL the angels!
Interesting, eh? Is There More?:
(2) In the end, we have this, Correct?:
”And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven
and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down from
God out of heaven, prepared as A Bride adorned for Her Husband.”
(Revelation 21 : 1-2 KJB!)
How BIG is This Place? 1500 Miles CUBED?:
And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth:
and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs.
The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(Revelation 21 : 16)
IF Israel “rules and reigns” the earthly land {LOWER} levels of
New Jerusalem, is it not possible that:
With The Above Heavenly UPlook of The Body Of CHRIST, that the
UPPER HEAVENLY levels COULD {Possibly?} be “ruled And reigned”
by it’s saintly members? Us? Interesting “food for thought,” eh?
What think ye, Precious friend, Michael? Instead of "being sad not
seeing stars," Being glad and rejoicing at the possibility Of "hope
of ruling and reigning AMONG the stars," eh?
Please Be Richly Blessed!
With love,
Chris Endrizzi
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It is another problem altogether to deny commonality. There are multiple prophecies in the OT that discuss the first advent and messiah coming as a suffering servant, and Multiple ones discussing the second advent and Messiah coming as King and To Bring Justice. But the smartest of Jewish scholars at the time could not figure out which came first and to this day they do not recognize Christ Jesus as their messiah. Why? Because there was and is a commonality to the prophecies, but not a cohesive and logical sequential explanation of events.
It kind of Irks me that you wish to change the topic from sequentiality to commonality now, ignoring the points I have made to you about sequentiality. Again time is irrelevant for the most part in Prophecy one paragraph can speak of both the first and the second advent simultaneously. Commonality is the only thing we have to work with at times when interpreting Prophecy, and Matthew 24:29, and the sixth seal are too similar to ignore, with Matthew 24 being an outline of the order the events occur that we must make revelation fit into, not the other way around of fitting matthew 24 into revelation.
Lime I said at the outset, My timeline is based on the Olivet discourse. Details were added to this that make it more cohesive and in depth, but they do not contradict God's word, Details such as the rapture given to Paul, and the nuance and detail given to John in Revelation only enhance What Christ said, not add confusion as you are accusing me of here, for God is not the author of confusion. What I am saying Both confirms and and adds clarity and completeness to both the olivet discourse and the book of Revelation, the confusion comes from the mindset that is unable to get past their preconceived, and in many cases erroneous assumptions that lead them to support one eschatlogy vs. another, they are unable to reach the point of Socratic ignorance (Look it up if you do not know what this is, although I prefer Pauline ignorance, that is to know nothing save Christ and Him Crucified) It is at that Point when the Holy Spirit can BEGIN to teach you, at the point of saying as Ezekiel did of the dry bones coming to life "Lord thou Knowest" It is then that he is able to teach you the truth, and Christ Jesus is the Truth, and the Revelation is the Revelation of Christ Jesus.
Much Like you and most conservative Christians I started out in the pre-trib camp, But when he called me he took me into the wilderness and showed me the truth of these things, although I wanted to believe in pretrib and did not like the idea of facing the mark of the beast He showed me why and what this is for and how this hastens his coming and How escapist mentality is a ill prepared for these things coming. But the more he showed me the more it began to make sense and fit. You can always find excuses why it does not work, such as the replies you are making and believe me I tried all of these, But the simplicity and beauty of the whole picture rightly seen will outweigh all your preconceptions of what makes the pretrib rapture so appealing to you now. There is so much to this that I can honestly say I am only touching the surface here, all of History both old and new covenant is tied into this revelation, the age of the Father ,the age of the Son, and the age of the Spirit, and that we through the Holy Spirit have an end time role to play in the culmination of this age, Much like Christ was the lamb of God, we to are sheep being led to slaughter, But the end far out weighs the cost, for we love not our lives even unto death for we know there is something better waiting.
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