No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[David H.]

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Yes, and all these events take place BEFORE the Millennial reign as spoken of in Revelation 20:1-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

You see yet? Just like 1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

His enemies do not exist in Heaven they exist on earth, and His reign serves this purpose to put all His enemies under His feet, the last enemy being Death and Hades which are cast into the lake of fire, that is why they must be loosed for a short season after the thousand years are ended, meaning there is a finality to his enemies. it is really quite simple.

 

[marks]

To Encourage brethren who are living in the Spirit to walk in the Spirit is not self affirming, In Fact it is based on the principal of edification of the Body.

What I mean being "self affirming" is your constantly putting others down. People typically relegate others to some "lower moral plane", or "lower intellectual ability", or whatever it is as a means of making themself feel better.

When you repeatedly do this with people you don't really know, belittle, that's a good word. You routinely belittle others, and in fact those whom you really have no personal knowledge.

This doesn't say much about those you belittle, but it does speak volumes about you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You see there is a true unity coming as well as a false unity,

What I would love for you to see is that if you were to accept others as your brothers, in humility, you could know that unity now.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

What I would love for you to see is that if you were to accept others as your brothers, in humility, you could know that unity now.

Have i rejected you as not being a brother? Is that the way you feel?

 

[marks]

Have i rejected you as not being a brother? Is that the way you feel?

Reread what I wrote please.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

What I mean being "self affirming" is your constantly putting others down. People typically relegate others to some "lower moral plane", or "lower intellectual ability", or whatever it is as a means of making themself feel better.

When you repeatedly do this with people you don't really know, belittle, that's a good word. You routinely belittle others, and in fact those whom you really have no personal knowledge.

This doesn't say much about those you belittle, but it does speak volumes about you.

There are two responses to what you are saying first of all that is what edification is all about, those who are mature in meekness edifying those who are in need. Secondly, Humility to receive edification is an essential element in Growth Spiritually. We are not an Island unto ourselves, and it is in fellowship that we grow. We need each other, and you will find this is what I am all about, we need each other not in compromise and getting along, But in the sense that iron sharpens iron.

Has your personal knowledge of Christ and the church grown in the discussions we have had over the past year? I Know mine has, and that is what I respect in your responses, they challenge me at times, but mainly inspire me to study more, this is known as respect. It is hard earned of another but in the end it is what bonds brothers together without compromise.

 

[marks]

There are two responses to what you are saying

There are more than two, and others may be more appropriate. You are actually ignoring what I'm saying.

I suppose you continue to hold yourself as judge of me, and that's not likely to change. When I happen to disagree with you about something, your response is to paint me spiritually deficient, and this pattern has played itself out over and over. So what is there to change my mind regarding you?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

There are more than two, and others may be more appropriate. You are actually ignoring what I'm saying.

I suppose you continue to hold yourself as judge of me, and that's not likely to change. When I happen to disagree with you about something, your response is to paint me spiritually deficient, and this pattern has played itself out over and over. So what is there to change my mind regarding you?

Much love!

Were Peter and Paul Brothers in Christ? Did they always get along? Paul rebuked Peter, the elder, and yet Peter was able to receive that rebuke and grow from it. Edification is a two way street Not only is the person receiving edification growing so too is the person doing the edifying, You just do not see this all the time as this is your own fruit of the Spirit, and to see this fruit will puff you up which is not what we need in general.

That being said, your responses are being fruitful in me as well, otherwise I would not bother commenting with you. They are both refining and challenging my views which is a benefit to my growth Spiritually as well.

I Have two brothers myself, we do not always get along but we are brothers. My Sons do not always get along but they are each others brothers nonetheless. Should one person threaten my youngest son, His older siblings would step in and defend him This is how brothers operate. They both compete with one another and push each other and they stand up for each other.

A Lot of times, I am critical of the church in general, and you see this as an attack at yourself personally. This is known as conviction. what I am saying is convicting you of something not being right in your own life and faith, this is one of the myriad of ways God speaks to us, and there have been hundreds of such times where I have been on the other end of this conviction and by His grace he enabled me to receive that conviction and thereby grow Spiritually. I Encourage you to not be afraid to do so yourself as this is God Speaking to you directly Just using me as the vessel to carry those words to you. Is this arrogance on my part to say this? No this is what walking in the Spirit is like, it is being moved by the Spirit toact and to speak and to say what he is telling us to say without fear. What would have happened if Paul failed to rebuke Peter?

One day you will be in the same situation and do the same thing and be moved by the Spirit to act in the same way, and you will be on the other end of this dilemma. It is only then that you will fully understand these comments I am writing to you. I Know there were some comments made by a person who was an elder to myself made that did not fully "click" until some years later, when I fully could understand them, this is just how the Holy Ghost speaks through us at times, the words you may hear now you may not need to hear until five years later, and He will then bring them to your remembrance. Do Not be ashamed that He is speaking to you convicting you, but instead rejoice that he is disciplining you as father disciplines a son.

 

[marks]

One day you will be in the same situation and do the same thing and be moved by the Spirit to act in the same way, and you will be on the other end of this dilemma.

No, I don't speak to others the way you do to me, and I'm not about to start. I wouldn't dare! And it would only be self-defeating.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

That's something very different, and again, it's not me saying it, it's God saying it. Not me. I just quote Him.

Much love!

Lets word this a bit clearer . I HAVE ALL I NEED IN CHRIST to overcome . Whether i have no money , even on the run
STILL I HAVE ALL I NEED FOR JESUS IS WITH ME . NOW LET THE KING BE PRAISED .

 

[amigo de christo]

GOD IS MY HELPER . HE ALONE is WHO WE NEED . Whether the gates of hell and all out persecutions comes against a lamb
STILL THEY HAVE ALL THEY NEED . FOR JESUS IS OUR HOPE , OUR REST , OUR SALVATION and our REDEEMER .
WHether we live or die , WE HAVE ALL HOPE . Whether in times of peace or great tribulation , STILL WE HAVE ALL HOPE .
FOR JESUS IS OUR HOPE . And whether we suffer , HE IS WITH US and SHall console us .
Even if we die , WE ARE SIMPLY PRESENT WITH THE KING . MARCH ON , ALL OUT HELL shall be releashed upon
the true lambs in the coming time . BUT fear not man , fear not a thing he can do , and fear not to suffer or to die for Christ .
THE LORD IS WITH US . IMMANUEL . MEANS IMMANUEL . AND HE IS ALL WE NEED .

 

[marks]

as this is God Speaking to you directly Just using me as the vessel to carry those words to you. Is this arrogance on my part to say this?

What when you are complete off target? You will never accept that, it seems, and you just keep doubling down on the same error.

Is that arrogance?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Lets word this a bit clearer . I HAVE ALL I NEED IN CHRIST to overcome . Whether i have no money , even on the run
STILL I HAVE ALL I NEED FOR JESUS IS WITH ME . NOW LET THE KING BE PRAISED .

2 Peter 1:2-4 KJV
2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Just Like Ole (Jack Van Impe), make a claim and start shouting out verses, "Big Smiles"!

So when you make a claim and start "shouting out" verses, we can just ignore those post and new threads?

 

[amigo de christo]

What I would love for you to see is that if you were to accept others as your brothers, in humility, you could know that unity now.

Much love!

Mark , i need to let you in on a lil secrete . A secrete on how you can tell if a church is truly following the true unity
or whether its already began to fall for the false unity .
IF a church is solid on bible doctrine and always reminds with the promises and the warnings
IF a church follows the pattern for correction
and always puts the sayings of Christ above all else .
Then they are in the right unity .
But if a church hollers love non stop , unity non stop , very little on doctrine and never big on correction , GET THE HECK OUT OF IT .
KEY words they will use . BRIDGE BUILDERS , FINDING COMMON GROUND , THEY will be focused
on the wrong reconcilation as well . FOR their mission is to reconcile man to man , NOT MAN TO GOD .
THEY are small on the gospel , if at all , and big on just doing good works and finding ways to get along .
GET OUT OF THOSE CHURCHES for they are already infected .

 

[marks]

Mark , i need to let you in on a lil secrete . A secrete on how you can tell if a church is truly following the true unity
or whether its already began to fall for the false unity .
IF a church is solid on bible doctrine and always reminds with the promises and the warnings
IF a church follows the pattern for correction
and always puts the sayings of Christ above all else .
Then they are in the right unity .
But if a church hollers love non stop , unity non stop , very little on doctrine and never big on correction , GET THE HECK OUT OF IT .
KEY words they will use . BRIDGE BUILDERS , FINDING COMMON GROUND , THEY will be focused
on the wrong reconcilation as well . FOR their mission is to reconcile man to man , NOT MAN TO GOD .
THEY are small on the gospel , if at all , and big on just doing good works and finding ways to get along .
GET OUT OF THOSE CHURCHES for they are already infected .

John 13:34-36 KJV
34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
36) Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

John 17:20-23 KJV
20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Ephesians 4:1-3 KJV
1) I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2) With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3) Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

. . . the greatest of these is love.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

I Strongly Disagree, There Is No 1,000 Year Gap Between Verses 23-24 Below, That Is "Adding" To Scripture To Achieve Your Desired Outcome, "Scary"!

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

David H. "Adds" 1,000 Years Here?

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

And you add 2000 years between the firstfruits and the Coming. That is scary and adding historism to the Word of God.

These verses are not about time at all. They are about 3 different groups considered to be affected by the Atonement. The "end" is not your climactic annihilation at the Second Coming. That is adding your own private interpretation to God's Word. That is worse then claiming there is a 2000 year gap and a 1000 year gap. You are refuting the Ability of God, Himself.

The verse never claims a climactic annihilation at the Second Coming. In fact it claims Christ hands a perfect kingdom to God, not a burnt offering as you have declared such submission.

 

[amigo de christo]

John 13:34-36 KJV
34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
36) Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

John 17:20-23 KJV
20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Ephesians 4:1-3 KJV
1) I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2) With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3) Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

. . . the greatest of these is love.

Much love!

OH i agree my friend . But these churches of the false unity , they use those same scrips as well .
Any love that wont correct error , and any love that omits the teachings of Christ and the apostles for unity , IT AINT LOVE at all .
Its a sham . SO we need to examine what LOVE version we are truly following .
And while we are at it , dont forget to mark those who cause divisions that are contrary to THE DOCTRINE ye have learned
and to AVOID them . Notice it dont say just accept them as they are and have unity with them .
I fear many and some even on this site are already INFECTED with the wrong love , the wrong unity and thus the wrong spirit .
Let us make sure our calling . LEARN the biblical JESUS for ourselves and learn the doctrine of the apostels for our selves as well .

 

[amigo de christo]

John 13:34-36 KJV
34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
36) Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

John 17:20-23 KJV
20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Ephesians 4:1-3 KJV
1) I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2) With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3) Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

. . . the greatest of these is love.

Much love!

AS I have Loved YOU . His love often came with much correction as well . Let us thus , LEARN to walk as JESUS DID
and we shall be well off indeed . Many men are charlatons . And today the only hersay is saying there is heresay .
I know , i often get called a pharisee , even been called son of perdition and anti christ . But words dont effect me my friend .
FOR I KNOW whose i am and am fully persauded IN HIM .

 

[Timtofly]

If we are truly living in the millennium as you surmise, you must prove that the beast already ruled for 42 months and mandated his mark for all the world to receive Both rich and poor, and that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark and this mark was reinforced by the false prophet who sent fire down from heaven to validate this mark and make the image of the beast come to life, and this ain't NERO as his power was never worldwide, nor did he have a false prophet sending fire down from Heaven etc, etc.

He also has to prove a physical resurrection. Where no one has died physically since that resurrection. The problem is he is symbolic about the first of the Millennium and literal about the end. A double standard. If the end is literal so is the beginning. Those who deny the literal of Revelation 20:1-4, should also deny a literal Second Coming, tribulation, and battle of Armageddon. All of these are only symbolic terms of who knows what? Nothing literal to apply them to.