But it should bother the Unitarian, since the matter of his or her salvation is at issue. If you do not believe that Jesus is God, you cannot be saved. Who said that? Jesus Himself said that.
(Non-trinitarian) Who is Jesus?
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Will burning those that reject the Athanatian Creed at the stake save their souls?
Can you or I compel belief in another?
I agree with the importance of the Deity of Christ ... Romans 10:8-9 time ... but I also believe John 6:35-45 which makes it the Father that draws and teaches the truth about the Son and not me. I can only share His words, I cannot change hearts like He does.
As I said in the OP, I am not bothered if someone claims to reject a mystery that I cannot fully explain (nor can anyone else without falling into a heresy like modalism), but I would then ask the question that both I and Romans 10:8-9 seem to feel is important: Who is Jesus Christ?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Proof text that Jesus is not God. The verse you refer to support your position proves Jesus was made by God.
Game. Set. Match.
After reading this topic, it strikes me that this is really a discussion/debate on the "hypostatic union".
From "Got Questions":
The extent to which one emphasizes the HUMAN NATURE of Jesus and the verses that support it, one seems to fall on the Non-Trinitarian side of this discussion and to the extent that one emphasizes the DIVINE NATURE of Jesus and the verses that support it, one seems to fall on the Trinitarian side of this discussion.
The point of the doctrine of the hypostatic union is that according to scripture, BOTH natures are necessary in the CHRIST. As Hebrews states, we need a Great High Priest that is higher than the angels (Deity) and familiar with our weakness and suffering (Man). In Jesus Christ, we have both.
From "Got Questions":
The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.
Jesus’ two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus’ humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus’ actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.
The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14).
Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
Jesus’ two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus’ humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus’ actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.
The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14).
Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
The extent to which one emphasizes the HUMAN NATURE of Jesus and the verses that support it, one seems to fall on the Non-Trinitarian side of this discussion and to the extent that one emphasizes the DIVINE NATURE of Jesus and the verses that support it, one seems to fall on the Trinitarian side of this discussion.
The point of the doctrine of the hypostatic union is that according to scripture, BOTH natures are necessary in the CHRIST. As Hebrews states, we need a Great High Priest that is higher than the angels (Deity) and familiar with our weakness and suffering (Man). In Jesus Christ, we have both.
2 Cor 5.21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
You diagrammed that sentence incorrectly.
God transformed Jesus into sin. [physically? Spiritually? Metaphorically?]
It does not say that Jesus was created by God.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Yes, the sentence does say God created Jesus. God made Jesus without sin means God made Jesus, period. Do you consider 'made' to be not a synonym of 'created?'
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No. The 'hypostatic union' is a dualistic rationalization for what is not in Scripture. There is no God the Son. Talk about diagramming a sentence incorrectly! The Son of God is not an equivalent expression to God the Son.
The Bible says over and over and over again that there is only one God, the Father alone. When Jesus came along, it did not change that basic fact of the Bible one iota. The trinity is not in the Bible and is a violation of the 1st & 2nd Commandment. There is only one God, and that is Jesus' God. When the resurrected Jesus talks about his God, not merely his father, but his God, it ought to convince us that the man Jesus is NOT God.
Jesus: Mary, you cannot hold Me. I must rise above this world to be with My Father, who is also your Father; My God, who is also your God. Go tell this to all My brothers.
John 20:17
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Jesus never said that. Odd that trinitarians keep saying that when the big reveal was that he was the Messiah, the Son of God.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
God used his Word to create a human personage of Himself. This in effect created two Persons of the Trinity. When His Word "creates something," it can be a replica of Himself. When we make something, we can only make an image of ourselves that are not ourselves. But God's Word is infinite in capacity, and He can make an image of Himself that *is* Himself.
I'm not, of course, talking here about modalism, where Father, Son, and Spirit are all viewed as non-distinct persons, all being aspects of a single Person. God is a singular Person, but He has also used His Word to create mirror images of Himself that stand distinct from Himself as persons.
The infinite Being of God is quite capable of producing, within His creation, a human being with His own divine personality. You may not be willing to accept it, but this is what the Bible teaches. The Word became flesh, and became a man.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Pure fiction, having nothing to do with Scripture. Deuteronomy 18:15-18 is how to interpret John 1:1.
God put his words into the mouth of a person among the Hebrews that God chose so the people will not be so afraid. God selected the man Jesus for this purpose.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I'm confident that you are saying this purely out of your own preconceived bias. I say that because 20 some centuries of Christian thought runs counter to your thought. We believe and know that those who wrote the Bible meant to express Jesus as God's Son, or Deity in the flesh.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No, it is from my purely conceived bias once I understood and applied the 1st commandment to trinitarianism.
The trinity is not in the Bible. It developed in the 4th century and only Roman power of murder, ostracization and taking property of non-trinitarians allowed the dualism to become 'orthodoxy.' Yet, the one God alone belief is alive and well, 20 centuries after Jesus said he was going to his God in John 20:17. This means nothing to you.
"We" is not the non-trinitarian Jesus this thread is about. ;-)
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