Not a future seeing Jesus coming guy

[Brakelite]

if symbolic, then of what.

If symbolic, the Bible itself explains the 'of what'. For example. The beast in Revelation 13:1,2 comes out of the sea. Does it really come out of the sea? Is it a real beast, or are both figures for something else? Daniel explains what a beast is, and ok communion with Revelation and Jeremiah, explains the sea. Put them altogether, and a clear picture emerges. Then all one needs to do is remain consistent with the interpretations, (one inconsistent interpretation is in thinking the sea beast of Revelation 13 is an individual man) because God Himself is consistent, and the prophecies start to make perfect sense.

“2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. ”
Daniel 7:2-3, 17 KJV

“32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. ”
Jeremiah 25:32-33 KJV

“1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. ”
Revelation 7:1-3 KJV

“And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. ”
Revelation 17:15 KJV

So, what are the beasts and where did they come from? They are empires that arose from war and turmoil in lands heavily populated with people and nations. The beasts were all predators, and they ate up nations that were their enemies.

In contradistinction to that, we have the second beast of Revelation 13. This rise up from the land, not the sea. It has 2 horns like a lamb, and no crowns upon the horns. No King. A democratic republic. It was a little later this nation spoke like the Dragon. How does a nation speak? Through its legislations and laws. The Dragon language becomes the same as that of the sea beast. War, persecution, religious tyranny.

 

[Brakelite]

But this is not the teaching of the New Testament

Just because something isn't explicitly taught in the NT, it doesn't mean it isn't taught in the Bible. When coming to an understanding of prophecy, one must take into account both old and new testaments, for one will always explain or magnify the other. They are complimentary, not contradictory. For example. The one beast from the sea isn't a contradiction to the 4 beasts of Daniel 7. They are in harmony, and the fact that the philosophies and traditions and mindset of the 4 beasts of Daniel still exist today is exemplified in that they are prevalent in the one composite beast in Revelation 13. That one clue alone (there are more than 10)should give most people who are willing to think without bias and preconceived ideas a very good start in identifying that revelation 13 beast.

 

[Brakelite]

Prayer and study and Prayer and study is the only response to things we don't understand. Some people can hold two or more conflicting ideas without feeling it necessary to make a decision, especially when a decision doesn't make a difference in what we do. Escatology is interesting, but I want to be better at witnessing, and hope the return of Christ allows for more souls to be saved.

Knowing the truth of prophecy and having a correct understanding of the symbols involved can make an eternal difference. Identifying the true Antichrist for example and understanding what his mark is. We have all manner of ideas concerning the Antichrist and his mark. Of you don't know the truth, them you may not just accept his mark, but welcome it.

 

[HealthyShape]

Just because something isn't explicitly taught in the NT, it doesn't mean it isn't taught in the Bible. When coming to an understanding of prophecy, one must take into account both old and new testaments, for one will always explain or magnify the other. They are complimentary, not contradictory. For example. The one beast from the sea isn't a contradiction to the 4 beasts of Daniel 7. They are in harmony, and the fact that the philosophies and traditions and mindset of the 4 beasts of Daniel still exist today is exemplified in that they are prevalent in the one composite beast in Revelation 13. That one clue alone (there are more than 10)should give most people who are willing to think without bias and preconceived ideas a very good start in identifying that revelation 13 beast.

The Old Testament was given until the New Testament. The New Testament determines what the Old Testament prophecies meant, how they were fulfilled or which ones still wait for the future, if any. Not people on online forums.

I think this simple principle would clean tons and tons of useless speculations, arguments and failed predictions we have seen from dispensationalists since the 19th century till today.

 

[Brakelite]

The Old Testament was given until the New Testament. The New Testament determines what the Old Testament prophecies meant, how they were fulfilled or which ones still wait for the future, if any. Not people on online forums.

I think this simple principle would clean tons and tons of useless speculations, arguments and failed predictions we have seen from dispensationalists since the 19th century till today.

Glad you and I are on the same page . As I said, the Bible interprets itself. It's a 400 year old Protestant principle.

 

[claninja]

You basically use block logic, right? If yes, is there any reason block logic and step logic can't be used together? In my mind, when it comes to prophecies in general, prophecies make no sense unless there is at least coherent chronology involved.

Take this for instance---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee(Zechariah 14:5). In my mind this clearly agrees with Revelation 19:11, 14, for one. Which then means that Zechariah 14:8-9 can't precede Revelation 19:11, 14, but must follow it.

Then there is also this in Zechariah 14:5--- And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains--which could possibly be agreeing with this in Revelation 6---Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


And could possibly be agreeing with this in Isaiah 2----Isaiah 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.


If I am correct about any and all of these connections, Zechariah 14:8 can't fit John 7:38 in that case since Zechariah 14:8 would be involving an era of time after He has returned in the end of this age, not before He returns. Does that then make the living waters literal? Maybe, maybe not. We could also compare with the following in Ezekiel 47. Would anyone take any of that to be involving John 7:38?

Ezekiel 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


Interestingly enough, for example, verse 12 matches Revelation 22:1-2 to a T. Clearly, the tree of life is meant in verse 12 since it obviously requires a never ending age in order to fulfill this---whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed.

Well, the oracle of Zechariah 12–14 was written by an Ancient Near Eastern (ANE) author whose worldview was shaped by Eastern modes of thought. Such writers often expressed truth through block logic—arranging ideas thematically or pictorially rather than in strict sequence. By contrast, you and I have been formed by Western philosophy, which tends to favor step logic—a linear, cause-and-effect progression of ideas. The challenge arises when we read an ANE text through a modern Western lens, expecting chronological order where the author was communicating through layered, parallel, or cyclical patterns of thought. That would be pounding a square peg into a round hole.

Verse	Focus	Symbolic Fulfillment
12:10	Mourning for the pierced one	Recognition of sin / Cross
13:1	Fountain cleanses from sin	Atonement / forgiveness
14:8	Living waters flow out	Spirit empowerment / life-giving

If the oracle of Zechariah 12–14 is read chronologically, using Western step logic, could these verses have been fulfilled in strict sequential order in the New Testament?

 

[HealthyShape]

As I said, the Bible interprets itself.

I would rather say that the context interprets the text. I saw all kinds of nonsense put together from out of the context verses and being marketed as "Bible interprets Bible".

And the context is both textual and cultural... Many Christians reject to learn the ancient cultural context which the biblical texts were written in.

 

[Brakelite]

I would rather say that the context interprets the text. I saw all kinds of nonsense put together from out of the context verses and being marketed as "Bible interprets Bible".

And the context is both textual and cultural... Many Christians reject to learn the ancient cultural context which the biblical texts were written in.

Context gives us context. The word gives us understanding. As I explained in post 381, there are explicit texts explaining precisely the symbolism if studied.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Brakelite Revelation 13’s beast.... past, present, or future? I hold to Daniel’s continuous-historical approach to prophecy, which is why I see Revelation as building directly upon Daniel’s framework.

It’s a shame that so many believers no longer interpret the Apocalypse in the way it was originally delivered.

 

[Douggg]

@Brakelite Revelation 13’s beast.... past, present, or future? I hold to Daniel’s continuous-historical approach to prophecy, which is why I see Revelation as building directly upon Daniel’s framework.

It’s a shame that so many believers no longer interpret the Apocalypse in the way it was originally delivered.

The beast in Revelation 13 is future. As are the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

 

[HealthyShape]

The beast in Revelation 13 is future. As are the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy...because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

"God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near."
Rev 22:10

Does not sound like a 2,000 years (and counting) distant future, does it?

 

[Brakelite]

@Brakelite Revelation 13’s beast.... past, present, or future? I hold to Daniel’s continuous-historical approach to prophecy, which is why I see Revelation as building directly upon Daniel’s framework.

It’s a shame that so many believers no longer interpret the Apocalypse in the way it was originally delivered.

All 3. Jerome, who engineered the Latin Vulgate, had a strong understanding that the Antichrist was soon to come. He lived at the time of the incursions and establishment of the 10 horns in the former Empire. He lived in the 5th century. Yet he had not yet witnessed the fall of the 3 horns which he said would give surety to the identity of the little horn. Other church fathers taught the same, as did the apostle Paul. Many of them witnessed the demise of the western Empire, they saw the rise of the horns, and knew the little horn was soon to come, which it did.
The reformers, several centuries later and having a clearer view as the past had unfolded, had a clear insight and understanding of the identity of that little horn. They had been raised within that system, had been taught by it, imprisoned theologically within its apostate framework, and were then breaking free under the inspired leadership of the holy Spirit, exposing her sins and errors. That system today is rising to global power, and will in the near future, be placed at the head of all world religions as a supreme ruler over the consciences of mankind, just as she had in Europe during the dark ages. The meeting just this week between the pope and king Charles is yet another precursor as to what we can expect in time to come.
Yes, only the blind cannot see what is in from of them.

 

[Douggg]

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy...because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

"God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near."
Rev 22:10

Does not sound like a 2,000 years (and counting) distant future, does it?

Near from Jesus's perspective.

In Revelation 11, the world will exchange gifts over the death of the two witnesses in Jerusalem. 3 1/2 days later, the two witnesses ascend to heaven. That sequence of events can only take place in modern times of internet and tv.

 

[HealthyShape]

Near from Jesus's perspective.

You can dismiss any word in the Bible saying something like this. If we work with the concept that Bible was written to/for us, then it was written considering the perspective of the original audience. Or else we would not have any key to understand anything.

In Revelation 11, the world will exchange gifts over the death of the two witnesses in Jerusalem 3 1/2 days later, the two witnesses ascend to heaven. That sequence of events can only take place in modern times of internet and tv.

I think you do not understand the language. Was this the whole world?

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
(Lk 2:2)

...your faith is being reported all over the world
R 1:8

...the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world
Col 1:6

When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting,
“These men who have upset the world have come here also;
Acts 17:6

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Mk 16:15 (hardly possible for the 11 apostles)

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:5

They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations.
Lk 21:24

 

[HealthyShape]

@Douggg interestingly, you dismiss "soon, near" as not meaning what it means (even though there is no biblical example of such), but you take the world literally, even though there is plenty of biblical examples it is not literal.

I do not know what is a recipe for dealing with this attitude. You are working with the text wrongly on each end.

 

[MatthewG]

yup I still not a future seening jesus come back guy. hard to refute my findings

 

[Douggg]

You can dismiss any word in the Bible saying something like this. If we work with the concept that Bible was written to/for us, then it was written considering our perspective. Or else we would not understand anything.

Thinking that way, will lead to mis-understanding. The bible is God's Word to mankind, given through his servants the prophets.

You are dismissing Ezekiel 39, which is latter years, latter days. And has Jesus's return in it. Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth, 7 years after the Gog/Magog attack on Israel.

 

[Douggg]

yup I still not a future seening jesus come back guy. hard to refute my findings

It is easy to refute your point of view. The mount of Olives is not split.

And Gog/Magog of the latter years, latter days, has not happened yet.

 

[HealthyShape]

Thinking that way, will lead to mis-understanding. The bible is God's Word to mankind, given through his servants the prophets.

You are dismissing Ezekiel 39, which is latter years, latter days. And has Jesus's return in it. Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth, 7 years after the Gog/Magog attack on Israel.

Do you believe God is unable to communicate with men properly?

We already talked about Ez 39. It is not a literal prophecy about a modern army, obviously. Today's armies do not use swords, horses, shields. It is either about some historic event or it is metaphorical. It obviously cannot be both literal and about future. Such option does not exist, it is not rational. Do you consider yourself irrational, @Douggg?

 

[LoveYeshua]

Hope to be with God in the afterlife.

It's not that hard.

You quoting what they expected and hoped for.

Jesus in the synoptic gospels explained how to get there to be with God in the afterlife, will you consider at least looking into it? Like you said it is not too hard.

Many say they Jesus spoke only to the Jews, He came first to the Jews it is true and he did say so but He did send his disciples to preach his message and all he did to the world. Jesus had to start somewhere, in this case God's chosen people, they were in great need of redemption and he had to set things straight, bring back the truth of God's word that the pharisees twisted and abused for their own uses instead of proclaiming the Glory of God. Of course he did many other incredible things also, gave his life for us so that if we believe in him and do God's will we would have eternal life.

Scripture is clear Jesus is the only way to eternal life.