Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process!

[John Zain]

Born-again Christians should realize John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, etc. are out of context with the NT.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo” implies an authentic,
active, abiding belief in Jesus … However, there are other instances when
“pisteuo” is used in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!
So, “believes in” above must mean: depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers about
falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) and overcome sin.
But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!
This is the reason for all of these MANY WARNINGS in the NT.

Matt 7:13-14 • Difficult is the narrow way leading to eternal life, and few find it.
Matt 7:21-23 • Those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 10:39 • He who loses his old sinful life for Jesus sake will find eternal life.
Matt 16:24-26 • Deny (lose) your old sinful life and follow Jesus to find eternal life.
Mark 11:25-26 • If you do not forgive everyone, Father God will not forgive your sins.
John 3:36 • Believe what Jesus says, or incur God’s wrath and lose eternal life.
John 12:25 • He who hates his life in this world will keep his life for eternity.
Rom 2:7-9 • Wrath to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
Rom 8:13 • Follow the Spirit and put to death the works of the flesh to gain eternal life.
Rom 8:14 • As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 Cor 6:9-10 • People committing these sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 9:27 • Paul disciplined his body into subjection so he should not be disqualified.
1 Cor 13:5 • Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
1 Cor 15:2 • You are saved, if you hold fast to the word, unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 7:10 • Godly sorrow leads Christians to repent, leading to salvation.
Gal 5:19-21 • Believers who practice such sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 • Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 6:7-8 • Sowing to the flesh reaps corruption; sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
Eph 5:3-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
Eph 5:25-27 • Jesus gave Himself for a Church which will be holy and without blemish.
Phil 2:12-13 • Work out your salvation with fear and trembling (for God is working in you).
Col 1:21-23 • Jesus reconciles those who continue in faith, and who hope in the gospel.
Col 3:5-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
1 Thes 5:8 • Put on the helmet of the hope of salvation.
1 Tim 5:11-12 • Some believers are condemed because they have cast off their first faith.
Heb 2:1-4 • How shall we escape, if we drift away and neglect so great a salvation?
Heb 3:8,15 • Do not harden your hearts as in the OT rebellion in the wilderness.
Heb 3:11 • God swore in His wrath that the disobedient Jews would not enter His rest.
Heb 3:12 • Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 • Partakers of Christ hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 3:17-19 • Those who sinned died in the wilderness, not entering in due to unbelief.
Heb 3:18-19 • It is unbelief that causes disobedience.
Heb 4:1 • Let us fear lest any of us seems to have come short of entering His rest.
Heb 4:3 • About the disobedient, God swore in His wrath, “They shall not enter My rest.”
Heb 4:6 • God’s chosen people did not enter in because of disobedience.
Heb 4:11 • Beware, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
Heb 6:4-8 • Those partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
Heb 10:26-27 • Believers who sin willfully can expect God’s fiery judgment.
Heb 10:29-31 • God will fearfully avenge believers who insult the Spirit of grace.
Heb 10:36-39 • Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
Heb 12:14 • Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Pet 1:8-9 • Believing, you will receive the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
2 Pet 1:10-11 • Be diligent to make your call and election sure, gaining the kingdom.
2 Pet 2:20-22 • A believer who returns to his sins is worse off than he was before.
1 Jn 2:3-5 • We are sure that we know God, if we keep His commandments.
Rev 2-3 • All 7 churches are warned to repent and be overcomers to be: given the crown of life,
clothed in white garments, a pillar in the temple of God, not hurt by the second death, etc.
Rev 21:7-8 • People committing these sins will go into the lake of fire (the seconddeath).
Rev 21:27 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.

 

[101G]

2 John Zain GINOLJC

I'm a little confused in your topic, "Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process! "

Born-again Christians should realize John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, etc. are out of context with the NT.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo” implies an authentic,
active, abiding belief in Jesus … However, there are other instances when
“pisteuo” is used in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!
So, “believes in” above must mean: depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

they must choose to co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but consider this, all those hearer's at that time was under the old covenant. the Spirit was not given to them yet.

John 2:23 "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did".

you can't walk by sight only, but with faith. so their belief was not based in faith. and the gospel was just being preached, but no Holy Ghost to sustain them. as the children before them saw the red sea part, but yet a few days later sinned. I based this on,
Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it". again the key word "in" them

John 8:31 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed "on" him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed". the key word here is "continue". disciples are in training. they belive "on" him instead of beliveing "IN" him.

John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him". these was disciples (not born again believers yet), for he even asked his own hand pick, "Will ye also go away?". for the Spirit was not given yet.

but some of the new testament scripture you gave a few is questionable

maybe I could wrong on the John scriptures you gave, but that's what I'm seeing.

Love and Peace
101G.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

John Zain .... you said .... I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers about
falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

But when I read your long list of verses .... they are describing people who never did believe .... or have walked away after being told about salvation and have rejected it

Big difference from claiming they were once saved ..... and then abandoned salvation .... no !! .... they never had it in the first place

Remember the context in which the new testament was written ..... Jesus had just been there ..... the whole area was a hotbed of this new christian teaching ...... probably everybody was being exposed to it in one form or another ..... yet some still .... "did not believe"

Not a lot different than today ...... if i went to a huge John Zain evangelistic meeting ..... heard the gospel for the first time ..... heard the altar call to accept Christ ...... and walked away .... I am still an unbeliever.

Then those verses would apply to me.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[John Zain]

The 101G wrote ...
I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but consider this, all those hearer's at that time was under the old covenant.
the Spirit was not given to them yet.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

The first part in the OP about "pisteuo" is not connected with the part in blue.

P.S. too bad this editor doesn't work!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

JZ,
I'm sorry to have to say that I think you are exactly right. Sorry for those who believe in Christ in their mind, but are not believing into Christ by putting away the old man.

In the Greek, John 3:16 actually says 'whosoever believes INTO him'. This requires an obedience of the whole being, not just a belief in the mind.

 

[John Zain]

Arnold,

I suggest you read through the list again.

 

[101G]

2 ChristRoseFromTheDead,

are you saying if one believes INTO him, then they are saved, Y/N?

 

[williemac]

This is a dangerous topic, but vital to be discussing. No one ever comes here to dispute whether or not a Christian should live a godly life, abstain from sin, and bear fruit. The disputes arise, not from the concept of walking in the spirit, but in the motivation. I cannot emphasize enough just how important one's motive is to God. (Heb.4:12)The word of God, being sharper than a two edged sword, is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart (motives).

Please indulge me for a minute. When Abraham was ordered to offer his son on the alter, this was a test of his faith. God had promised him that he would be the father of many nations, and furthermore that it would be through Issac that his seed would be named. Now he is being told to kill Issac.

Previous to this, Abraham actually failed the test by 'helping' God fulfill the promise. He did this when he had a son through the bondwoman, his own wife being barren. This represented a failure to believe God, who had said it would be through Sarah (Gen.17:19). God did not waiver at His promise. They eventually had a miracle baby, Issac, as God had promised.

Fast forward to the sacrifice. Abraham would have failed the test by refusing to offer his son. It would have represented his attempt to fulfill the promise through his own logic and power.

So here is the question. If God makes a covenant by way of a promise, do we accept Him at His word or do we do things to 'help' Him fulfill it?

God has made a promise, that He would save those who believe on His Son. In John 3:16, 5:24, among other passages, we are told that those who have faith have everlasting life. This faith is no different that that of Abraham, who believed God and it was accounted to Him for righteousness (Gal.3:6). God makes the promise. We accept Him at His word.

At the moment of having received everlasting life by way of the new birth, we are given a new nature in our spirit man (new man, Eph.4:24). This is one of two sanctifications that we see in scripture. This is the one that God does to us and in us through His promise. The other sanctification is that which we do in participation with God. It is the sanctification of the flesh. One is instant. The other is a process.

Enter the motivation. Why do we participate with God for the sanctification of the flesh? There will be a test. The test of faith. Do we engage ourselves in 'helping' God fulfill His promise? As I shared in the beginning, no one will argue the need for our sanctification. But if we are doing these things to ensure that the promise will be fulfilled, then we are surely failing the test of faith. We cannot be God. We are not to enter the arena of doing only what God can do. Salvation is His to give. Life is His to give. If He wants to give it as a free gift, which He actually has promised, then that is His work and His business.

If one wants to exhort us to sanctification, then I suggest we drop this absurd notion that our salvation is at stake. This is not the right motive. In the list from the op. I see Col.1:21. I agree. We need to continue in the faith.

The unfortunate thing about the op is the contradictions in the list. But they come from the interpretation that arises from some of the passage, and not the passages themselves. For example, The Heb.10 mention of willful sin. It is out of context. The context arise from the information that the One sacrifice has replaced the old ones, being superior to them. Therefore to those who do not qualify under the sacrifice of Jesus (through faith), there remains no sacrifice for them. This is because they have rejected the One that saves. Read vs. 39, (which oddly enough is on the list) .."We are NOT of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

Here is the contradiction: The author went to great pains to demonstrate the superiority of His sacrifice over the blood of bulls and goats. Under the old covenant, the sacrifices were offered continually. These covered their sins, willful or otherwise, offering an atonement for them. So does someone want to explain to me how it is that the better sacrifice cannot even accomplish what the old ones did?

Jesus said that all sin would be forgiven. Do we believe Him or not? Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not a sin. It is a show of opposition to God, accompanied by unbelief. It is unforgiven. Unforgiveness for sin remains on all who fail to accept God's promise, which was empowered by the sacrifice of His Son. This is the context of Heb.10:26.

Do we abstain from sin? By all means. Do we do it to 'help' God fulfill His promise? By no means.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Born-again Christians should realize John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, etc. are out of context with the NT.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo” implies an authentic,
active, abiding belief in Jesus … However, there are other instances when
“pisteuo” is used in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!
So, “believes in” above must mean: depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers about
falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) and overcome sin.
But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!
This is the reason for all of these MANY WARNINGS in the NT.

Matt 7:13-14 • Difficult is the narrow way leading to eternal life, and few find it.
Matt 7:21-23 • Those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 10:39 • He who loses his old sinful life for Jesus sake will find eternal life.
Matt 16:24-26 • Deny (lose) your old sinful life and follow Jesus to find eternal life.
Mark 11:25-26 • If you do not forgive everyone, Father God will not forgive your sins.
John 3:36 • Believe what Jesus says, or incur God’s wrath and lose eternal life.
John 12:25 • He who hates his life in this world will keep his life for eternity.
Rom 2:7-9 • Wrath to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
Rom 8:13 • Follow the Spirit and put to death the works of the flesh to gain eternal life.
Rom 8:14 • As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 Cor 6:9-10 • People committing these sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 9:27 • Paul disciplined his body into subjection so he should not be disqualified.
1 Cor 13:5 • Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
1 Cor 15:2 • You are saved, if you hold fast to the word, unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 7:10 • Godly sorrow leads Christians to repent, leading to salvation.
Gal 5:19-21 • Believers who practice such sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 • Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 6:7-8 • Sowing to the flesh reaps corruption; sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
Eph 5:3-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
Eph 5:25-27 • Jesus gave Himself for a Church which will be holy and without blemish.
Phil 2:12-13 • Work out your salvation with fear and trembling (for God is working in you).
Col 1:21-23 • Jesus reconciles those who continue in faith, and who hope in the gospel.
Col 3:5-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
1 Thes 5:8 • Put on the helmet of the hope of salvation.
1 Tim 5:11-12 • Some believers are condemed because they have cast off their first faith.
Heb 2:1-4 • How shall we escape, if we drift away and neglect so great a salvation?
Heb 3:8,15 • Do not harden your hearts as in the OT rebellion in the wilderness.
Heb 3:11 • God swore in His wrath that the disobedient Jews would not enter His rest.
Heb 3:12 • Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 • Partakers of Christ hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 3:17-19 • Those who sinned died in the wilderness, not entering in due to unbelief.
Heb 3:18-19 • It is unbelief that causes disobedience.
Heb 4:1 • Let us fear lest any of us seems to have come short of entering His rest.
Heb 4:3 • About the disobedient, God swore in His wrath, “They shall not enter My rest.”
Heb 4:6 • God’s chosen people did not enter in because of disobedience.
Heb 4:11 • Beware, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
Heb 6:4-8 • Those partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
Heb 10:26-27 • Believers who sin willfully can expect God’s fiery judgment.
Heb 10:29-31 • God will fearfully avenge believers who insult the Spirit of grace.
Heb 10:36-39 • Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
Heb 12:14 • Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Pet 1:8-9 • Believing, you will receive the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
2 Pet 1:10-11 • Be diligent to make your call and election sure, gaining the kingdom.
2 Pet 2:20-22 • A believer who returns to his sins is worse off than he was before.
1 Jn 2:3-5 • We are sure that we know God, if we keep His commandments.
Rev 2-3 • All 7 churches are warned to repent and be overcomers to be: given the crown of life,
clothed in white garments, a pillar in the temple of God, not hurt by the second death, etc.
Rev 21:7-8 • People committing these sins will go into the lake of fire (the seconddeath).
Rev 21:27 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.

Very nice.

Our growth in the Christ begins when repent of our old ways and begin to step out in faith to walk with Jesus on the water of the Word to be steadfast trusting in God and not what we see around us. The Word of God he strengthen us in our faith walk so that we learn to how to trust God and what God expects from us which we all know is obedience, disciplined in His Word with praise, thanksgiving to show who is our VICTOR in our struggles as we learn how to fight the good fight of faith to reach our full maturity as son's of the living God who abide in the Son who is the living Word. Sanctification is to know the truth and accept the truth and the Truth is God's Word.
John 17:17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy WORD is truth.
KJV
Eph 5:25-28
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
KJV


1 Thess 5:21-23
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

Any one can believe that Jesus is the Son of God.. but if they never move forward to grow in the Word, they are not born again spiritually in the fullness or the maturity of Christ who is the head of his many body members, hands, feet, etc....or what ever position God has placed us in the body of Christ who is being formed by God in the womb of our mother heavenly Jerusalem as a holy nation born in one day in the image of Christ.

 

[101G]

2 williemac, amen

I agree by all means,
Do we abstain from sin? By all means. Do we do it to 'help' God fulfill His promise? By no means.

even us abstaining from sin is an act of God. that's why we have the Holy Spirit, and even if we do sin we still have 1 John 1:9. why, because of 1 John 2:1 the advocate. either way we go God promise still stand.

but as you said, When Abraham was ordered to offer his son on the alter, this was a test of his faith. God had promised him that he would be the father of many nations, and furthermore that it would be through Issac that his seed would be named. Now he is being told to kill Issac.

this could not have been a test of faith, but belief. you said the promise was already given. the scriptures said, Romans 4:3 "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness".

the topic is about "the sanctification process", not an act of Faith
I do agree with you on God promise. their is nothing we can do. salvation is important, if you have a promise can you trust God for it, or do one act on the trust.

Love and Peace
101G

 

[afaithfulone4u]

This is a dangerous topic, but vital to be discussing. No one ever comes here to dispute whether or not a Christian should live a godly life, abstain from sin, and bear fruit. The disputes arise, not from the concept of walking in the spirit, but in the motivation. I cannot emphasize enough just how important one's motive is to God. (Heb.4:12)The word of God, being sharper than a two edged sword, is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart (motives).

Please indulge me for a minute. When Abraham was ordered to offer his son on the alter, this was a test of his faith. God had promised him that he would be the father of many nations, and furthermore that it would be through Issac that his seed would be named. Now he is being told to kill Issac.

Previous to this, Abraham actually failed the test by 'helping' God fulfill the promise. He did this when he had a son through the bondwoman, his own wife being barren. This represented a failure to believe God, who had said it would be through Sarah (Gen.17:19). God did not waiver at His promise. They eventually had a miracle baby, Issac, as God had promised.

Fast forward to the sacrifice. Abraham would have failed the test by refusing to offer his son. It would have represented his attempt to fulfill the promise through his own logic and power.

So here is the question. If God makes a covenant by way of a promise, do we accept Him at His word or do we do things to 'help' Him fulfill it?

God has made a promise, that He would save those who believe on His Son. In John 3:16, 5:24, among other passages, we are told that those who have faith have everlasting life. This faith is no different that that of Abraham, who believed God and it was accounted to Him for righteousness (Gal.3:6). God makes the promise. We accept Him at His word.

At the moment of having received everlasting life by way of the new birth, we are given a new nature in our spirit man (new man, Eph.4:24). This is one of two sanctifications that we see in scripture. This is the one that God does to us and in us through His promise. The other sanctification is that which we do in participation with God. It is the sanctification of the flesh. One is instant. The other is a process.

Enter the motivation. Why do we participate with God for the sanctification of the flesh? There will be a test. The test of faith. Do we engage ourselves in 'helping' God fulfill His promise? As I shared in the beginning, no one will argue the need for our sanctification. But if we are doing these things to ensure that the promise will be fulfilled, then we are surely failing the test of faith. We cannot be God. We are not to enter the arena of doing only what God can do. Salvation is His to give. Life is His to give. If He wants to give it as a free gift, which He actually has promised, then that is His work and His business.

If one wants to exhort us to sanctification, then I suggest we drop this absurd notion that our salvation is at stake. This is not the right motive. In the list from the op. I see Col.1:21. I agree. We need to continue in the faith.

The unfortunate thing about the op is the contradictions in the list. But they come from the interpretation that arises from some of the passage, and not the passages themselves. For example, The Heb.10 mention of willful sin. It is out of context. The context arise from the information that the One sacrifice has replaced the old ones, being superior to them. Therefore to those who do not qualify under the sacrifice of Jesus (through faith), there remains no sacrifice for them. This is because they have rejected the One that saves. Read vs. 39, (which oddly enough is on the list) .."We are NOT of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

Here is the contradiction: The author went to great pains to demonstrate the superiority of His sacrifice over the blood of bulls and goats. Under the old covenant, the sacrifices were offered continually. These covered their sins, willful or otherwise, offering an atonement for them. So does someone want to explain to me how it is that the better sacrifice cannot even accomplish what the old ones did?

Jesus said that all sin would be forgiven. Do we believe Him or not? Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not a sin. It is a show of opposition to God, accompanied by unbelief. It is unforgiven. Unforgiveness for sin remains on all who fail to accept God's promise, which was empowered by the sacrifice of His Son. This is the context of Heb.10:26.

Do we abstain from sin? By all means. Do we do it to 'help' God fulfill His promise? By no means.

Faith without works is dead faith. So if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for us, but then raised back up on the 3rd day that is good for even the demons believe in Jesus and know that he is the Son of God.
But after God forsook His Word to die on the cross for the Bread of life which is his body we must feed upon was broken for our sakes to release us from the old flesh Word law and give us the new law in the Spirit to teach us how to abide in Christ by mixing the Word with faith to BELIEVE every Word that has proceeded from the mouth of God and that would be the inspired Word of God that was written down by men for our learning. Jesus is the Word who became flesh, he is our E-Manual sent to us from above(Emanuel) being God with us to teach us by example and in Word how to be transformed by the renewing of our minds to be able to know the acceptable will for our lives.
To have faith in something means that we will walk in trust as if it is true. God said by his stripes we were healed, but how many can step out on the Words by faith to take hold of their healing?
And when God tried to give the promised land to the Israelites they could not believe God's Word over the giants in the land that they SAW and they died in the desert due to unbelief even though they knew what God had said, they just did have enough faith in His Word to step out in faith and believe that GOD WAS WITH THEM and take their promised land. Faith without works is dead.

God's people must be sanctified by His Word allowing and asking for the Spirit to operate in their heart to love & know intimately the Word of God for that is the Will of God for His children.

 

[101G]

2 a4,
he is our E-Manual sent to us from above(Emanuel). like that, must use that, OK.

Love and Peace
101G

 

[John Zain]

williemac,

There are promises that appear to say … simple belief gains salvation.
There are promises that appear to say … simple disobedience gains salvation lost.
Both types of promises involve the gain or loss of “eternal life”.

How can you compare the 2 blood covenants re: covering over sin, overcoming sin, etc.?
Those in the OT had NO Holy Spirit to help them become overcomers (of sin)!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Arnold,

I suggest you read through the list again.

How about I just take one and refute it .... then you can go through the rest in a like manner

The first one on your list is .... Matt 7:13-14 • Difficult is the narrow way leading to eternal life, and few find it.

Jesus is instructing his listeners (to believe Him) and enter the narrow gate (for eternal life)

Read that again.... entering by the narrow gate is eternal life

Your rendition would have to read as follows .... (some people) will enter the narrow gate and spend a bit of time there (saved) , then change their mind , turn around and exit via the narrow gate (now unsaved) , and then head down the broad road to destruction

And we both know that is not what Jesus said

The people on the broad road to destruction are there simply because they did not enter the narrow gate in the first place.

The ones on the narrow road are the believers
The ones on the broad road are not believers

 

[Episkopos]

Born-again Christians should realize John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, etc. are out of context with the NT.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo” implies an authentic,
active, abiding belief in Jesus … However, there are other instances when
“pisteuo” is used in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!
So, “believes in” above must mean: depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers about
falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) and overcome sin.
But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!
This is the reason for all of these MANY WARNINGS in the NT.

Matt 7:13-14 • Difficult is the narrow way leading to eternal life, and few find it.
Matt 7:21-23 • Those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 10:39 • He who loses his old sinful life for Jesus sake will find eternal life.
Matt 16:24-26 • Deny (lose) your old sinful life and follow Jesus to find eternal life.
Mark 11:25-26 • If you do not forgive everyone, Father God will not forgive your sins.
John 3:36 • Believe what Jesus says, or incur God’s wrath and lose eternal life.
John 12:25 • He who hates his life in this world will keep his life for eternity.
Rom 2:7-9 • Wrath to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
Rom 8:13 • Follow the Spirit and put to death the works of the flesh to gain eternal life.
Rom 8:14 • As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 Cor 6:9-10 • People committing these sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 9:27 • Paul disciplined his body into subjection so he should not be disqualified.
1 Cor 13:5 • Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
1 Cor 15:2 • You are saved, if you hold fast to the word, unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 7:10 • Godly sorrow leads Christians to repent, leading to salvation.
Gal 5:19-21 • Believers who practice such sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 • Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 6:7-8 • Sowing to the flesh reaps corruption; sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
Eph 5:3-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
Eph 5:25-27 • Jesus gave Himself for a Church which will be holy and without blemish.
Phil 2:12-13 • Work out your salvation with fear and trembling (for God is working in you).
Col 1:21-23 • Jesus reconciles those who continue in faith, and who hope in the gospel.
Col 3:5-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
1 Thes 5:8 • Put on the helmet of the hope of salvation.
1 Tim 5:11-12 • Some believers are condemed because they have cast off their first faith.
Heb 2:1-4 • How shall we escape, if we drift away and neglect so great a salvation?
Heb 3:8,15 • Do not harden your hearts as in the OT rebellion in the wilderness.
Heb 3:11 • God swore in His wrath that the disobedient Jews would not enter His rest.
Heb 3:12 • Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 • Partakers of Christ hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 3:17-19 • Those who sinned died in the wilderness, not entering in due to unbelief.
Heb 3:18-19 • It is unbelief that causes disobedience.
Heb 4:1 • Let us fear lest any of us seems to have come short of entering His rest.
Heb 4:3 • About the disobedient, God swore in His wrath, “They shall not enter My rest.”
Heb 4:6 • God’s chosen people did not enter in because of disobedience.
Heb 4:11 • Beware, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
Heb 6:4-8 • Those partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
Heb 10:26-27 • Believers who sin willfully can expect God’s fiery judgment.
Heb 10:29-31 • God will fearfully avenge believers who insult the Spirit of grace.
Heb 10:36-39 • Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
Heb 12:14 • Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Pet 1:8-9 • Believing, you will receive the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
2 Pet 1:10-11 • Be diligent to make your call and election sure, gaining the kingdom.
2 Pet 2:20-22 • A believer who returns to his sins is worse off than he was before.
1 Jn 2:3-5 • We are sure that we know God, if we keep His commandments.
Rev 2-3 • All 7 churches are warned to repent and be overcomers to be: given the crown of life,
clothed in white garments, a pillar in the temple of God, not hurt by the second death, etc.
Rev 21:7-8 • People committing these sins will go into the lake of fire (the seconddeath).
Rev 21:27 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.

It's actually believe INTO Him...we must be found in Christ having lost our own independent life in order to be able to enter into Christ and remain (abide) there.

G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.

 

[williemac]

williemac,

There are promises that appear to say … simple belief gains salvation.
There are promises that appear to say … simple disobedience gains salvation lost.
Both types of promises involve the gain or loss of “eternal life”.

How can you compare the 2 blood covenants re: covering over sin, overcoming sin, etc.?
Those in the OT had NO Holy Spirit to help them become overcomers (of sin)!

Those in the OT had the blood of bulls and goats. We have the blood of Christ. Which is superior? The problem with using the term "simple belief" is that it misses the point of faith. The purpose of faith for salvation is to complete the reconciliation. 2Cor.5:19,20 speaks of God reconciling the world to Himself and then pleading for a response. If a person has no desire to be reconciled to God, no interest in knowing Him, no interest in God's purpose for his life, then faith is pointless. These things are the end result. The method of gaining them is faith. As we have seen from the example of Abraham, God made a promise and He believed God. I am simply saying that salvation is God's work, not ours. He made a promise to save those who want salvation and are willing to admit the need for it. God gives grace to the humble. There is nothing humble about figuring that we need to help God with salvation by our behavior. The Holly Spirit is given to the saved, to those who have everlasting life. He is given among other reasons, as a guarantee of our inheritance. So, if our inheritance can be lost if we don't measure up to a standard of behavior, then how is that a guarantee? What is it based on? I disagree, and I do so from a scriptural basis, on the concept that the Holy Spirit is given so that we can better behave ourselves so that we can earn salvation as a result. What a load of "dung", as the bible calls it!!!

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

JZ,
I'm sorry to have to say that I think you are exactly right. Sorry for those who believe in Christ in their mind, but are not believing into Christ by putting away the old man.

In the Greek, John 3:16 actually says 'whosoever believes INTO him'. This requires an obedience of the whole being, not just a belief in the mind.

What do you mean "obedience of the whole being"? Obedience, being the operative word I'm focusing on.

Faith without works is dead faith. So if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for us, but then raised back up on the 3rd day that is good for even the demons believe in Jesus and know that he is the Son of God.
But after God forsook His Word to die on the cross for the Bread of life which is his body we must feed upon was broken for our sakes to release us from the old flesh Word law and give us the new law in the Spirit to teach us how to abide in Christ by mixing the Word with faith to BELIEVE every Word that has proceeded from the mouth of God and that would be the inspired Word of God that was written down by men for our learning. Jesus is the Word who became flesh, he is our E-Manual sent to us from above(Emanuel) being God with us to teach us by example and in Word how to be transformed by the renewing of our minds to be able to know the acceptable will for our lives.
To have faith in something means that we will walk in trust as if it is true. God said by his stripes we were healed, but how many can step out on the Words by faith to take hold of their healing?
And when God tried to give the promised land to the Israelites they could not believe God's Word over the giants in the land that they SAW and they died in the desert due to unbelief even though they knew what God had said, they just did have enough faith in His Word to step out in faith and believe that GOD WAS WITH THEM and take their promised land. Faith without works is dead.

God's people must be sanctified by His Word allowing and asking for the Spirit to operate in their heart to love & know intimately the Word of God for that is the Will of God for His children.

So you think the healing is physical. What commentator or writer did you get that from. Don't tell me the Holy Spirit showed you this as it's quite untrue. Isaiah 53:5 is addressing saints spiritual condition not the christians physical. If any healing comes via God it's an exception not a rule and he certainly isn't applying the above scripture.

The 101G wrote ...
I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but consider this, all those hearer's at that time was under the old covenant.
the Spirit was not given to them yet.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

The first part in the OP about "pisteuo" is not connected with the part in blue.

P.S. too bad this editor doesn't work!

If you mean by sanctification 'bearing fruit'. Then, yes the bible agrees. Even so, some are saved by fire only. However, if you mean not all make it(Apostate) even though they were once upon the road to eternal life, then. I think John Wesley believed the same. The book of Hebrews seems to indicate this.

 

[williemac]

Faith without works is dead faith. So if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for us, but then raised back up on the 3rd day that is good for even the demons believe in Jesus and know that he is the Son of God.
But after God forsook His Word to die on the cross for the Bread of life which is his body we must feed upon was broken for our sakes to release us from the old flesh Word law and give us the new law in the Spirit to teach us how to abide in Christ by mixing the Word with faith to BELIEVE every Word that has proceeded from the mouth of God and that would be the inspired Word of God that was written down by men for our learning. Jesus is the Word who became flesh, he is our E-Manual sent to us from above(Emanuel) being God with us to teach us by example and in Word how to be transformed by the renewing of our minds to be able to know the acceptable will for our lives.
To have faith in something means that we will walk in trust as if it is true. God said by his stripes we were healed, but how many can step out on the Words by faith to take hold of their healing?
And when God tried to give the promised land to the Israelites they could not believe God's Word over the giants in the land that they SAW and they died in the desert due to unbelief even though they knew what God had said, they just did have enough faith in His Word to step out in faith and believe that GOD WAS WITH THEM and take their promised land. Faith without works is dead.

God's people must be sanctified by His Word allowing and asking for the Spirit to operate in their heart to love & know intimately the Word of God for that is the Will of God for His children.

In the first place, it would actually be a benefit to study the book of James before blindly quoting one sentence and using that as a platform that the letter had nothing to do with. James did not mention anything about the overcoming of sin. He reprimanded the readers for their apparent lack of or inconsistency of...LOVE. In seeing their lack of fruit in that area, He naturally went to the subject of faith. Faith is the method by which we inherit life and the Spirit, and therefore the method by which we are empowered to love one another with a greater love than we naturally have within us.

But if you want to insist that we believe the words that proceed out of the mouth of our Lord, then on the subject of everlasting life, hear what Jesus Himself said.....John5:24..." MOST ASSUREDLY, I SAY TO YOU, HE WHO HEARS MY WORD AND BELIEVES I HIM WHO SENT ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE, AND SHALL NOT COME UNDER JUDGMENT, BUT HAS PASSED FROM DEATH INTO LIFE.
Do you accept this passage? He has made the incredible promise hat we will not be judged. How is it then, that you promote works for the motivation of passing judgment unto salvation? As my reply insists, I am not opposed to works or to the call to a godly life. What I am opposed to is the suggestion that these things will be judged by God in the future to determine whether or not we will inherit life. Excuse me for my stance, but it is based on scripture, based on the words that have proceeded from God, which somehow you have been passing over. He who has the Son, has life. There are no works that can add to the fulness of that which is given as a free gift. They can only express the life within. But the life itself comes by faith. If we see a lack of works, then we do what James did. We go back to faith. Otherwise we are simply selling works without faith. It is faith which results in works. However, If our works are done for the motive of attaining or retaining life, then they are devoid of faith. They do not prove faith with that motive. They rather prove the absence of it.

 

[mjrhealth]

Rev 14:4 These are those who were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, as a firstfruit to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile, for they were without blemish before the throne of God.

WHo is the women,

The Harlot Church. all mens denominations.

And why wont many be clean,

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins joined together, even up to Heaven, and God has remembered her unjust deeds.

They wont come out, the bride has being called out into the wilderness,

In all His LOve

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Rev 14:4 These are those who were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, as a firstfruit to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile, for they were without blemish before the throne of God.

WHo is the women,

The Harlot Church. all mens denominations.

And why wont many be clean,

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins joined together, even up to Heaven, and God has remembered her unjust deeds.

They wont come out, the bride has being called out into the wilderness,

In all His LOve

Come out and go where??