Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process!

[Rex]

Super ... then what about these?

Hebrews 12:14 • Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Peter 1:15-16 • but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy
Ephesians 1:4 • we should be holy and without blame before Him in love
Colossians 1:22-23 • to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight,
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,
and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

lets add your opening OP sentence

Born-again Christians should realize John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, etc. are out of context with the NT.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

If you would drop the idea of sinlessness and realise no man is justified by righestness maybe you would begin to understand what these verses mean.
Your straining at gnats and swallowing the camel.

Here's the full verse you quoted. The red part is the part you chose to leave out. The blue part is the instruction to continue in faith not works hoping to be santified. I really don't know what kind of a game your playing but I'm certain your smart enought to read the complete verse you quoted and posibly grasp the concept. Just why is it you choose to exclude the most important part of the statement?

[SIZE=80%]22 [/SIZE]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you[SIZE=80%]c[/SIZE] holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation[SIZE=80%]d[/SIZE]—[SIZE=80%]23 [/SIZE]if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven,[SIZE=80%]h[/SIZE] and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.[SIZE=80%]i[/SIZE]

To put it frankly John there is nothing here that indicates working to be santified "reconsiled" it's been taken care of IF you be born of the spirit.
I'm despratly trying to bring to light the differance between growing in maturity and being made holy or santified by Christ. Which BTW CAN NEVER BE DONE ON YOUR OWN OR WITH THE HELP OF THE HS.
==============================================================================================

it is by grace and that is a gift from God, salvation, holieness, santification all has been paid for by Christ

Gal 3:13-18
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
The Law and the Promise
15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[i] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

 

[justaname]

What you and others are doing is taking this SO personally.

I am trying to warn the lukewarm Christians, some of whom just
walked an aisle, said a prayer, and were told that now everything is great.

Also, many have seen people fall away who were Spirit-filled believers.

IMO, today most churches are of the lukewarm Laodicean variety
that Jesus warns so strongly in Rev 3:14-22.

I love the idea of exhortation. I am just uncertain of the premise you present, the whole not all those born again... I believe once you are born again you are born into the hope of the resurrection.
1John 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.


I just wonder who's spirt these so called believers were filled with that fell away.

I agree with your Laodicean analogy. Most in the pews are not on fire for God, rather just going through the motions.

 

[Rex]

I love the idea of exhortation. I am just uncertain of the premise you present, the whole not all those born again... I believe once you are born again you are born into the hope of the resurrection.
1John 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.


I just wonder who's spirt these so called believers were filled with that fell away.

I agree with your Laodicean analogy. Most in the pews are not on fire for God, rather just going through the motions.

I'm afraid there are many that falsely believe they are born of the Spirit, If they truly were the indifference on these forums would be nonexistent. The inter-testimony would be self evident.
Or they have sought to enter by another way and been deceived Eph 1:13

You take Johns advice and keep testing the spirits.

 

[williemac]

What you and others are doing is taking this SO personally.

I am trying to warn the lukewarm Christians, some of whom just
walked an aisle, said a prayer, and were told that now everything is great.

Also, many have seen people fall away who were Spirit-filled believers.

IMO, today most churches are of the lukewarm Laodicean variety
that Jesus warns so strongly in Rev 3:14-22.

Greetings. I have on other threads given a reply to this subject of lukewarmness. I advise others, and you as well, to examine the passage and gain understanding as to just what Jesus was calling lukewarmness. In doing this I also advise you to refrain from using your own application of this word. It is not what you think it is.
In that passage, Jesus is letting them know that they are missing something. He told them that they were wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked. He did not say that their works were inferior or lukewarm. He said that they themselves were lukewarm. This is because that though they had a name that they were Christians, they were not experiencing a relationship with Jesus. This is what makes one blind and naked. The lack of the Spirit. The solution to their problem was not to clean up their lives, nor was it to beef up their works. Jesus invited Himself into their individual hearts ( Whoever hears My voice and opens the door).

The solution to what Jesus calls lukewarm, is not to quit sinning. It is not to do better works. It is not to try harder to live a fruitful life. The solution is to receive from God that which is being offered: The new birth. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. These are given by grace and received by the hearing of faith.

This then, is the context of that subject. You are misrepresenting the subject by using it to warn those who have already been born again and filled with the Spirit. They are not lukewarm by definition.

Jesus will say to some.."Depart from Me you workers of iniquity. I never knew you" There are two ways of looking at this. The correct way is to understand that people will be declared workers of iniquity because Jesus never knew them. The incorrect way is to think that He doesn't know them because they are workers of iniquity.
Those whom Jesus knows will not be judged (John5:24). Those whom He doesn't know will be judged by the law and declared workers of iniquity, as all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. The lukewarm church didn't know Jesus and vice-verso. That is why they were called lukewarm. Its all about relationship.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Regarding lukewarm Christians...

I think it is important to consider the context in this particular case. From what I've read, Laodicea did not have its own water source and received water via aqueduct from the hot springs in nearby Hieropolis. The water from there became tepid, or lukewarm, by the time it reached Laodicea. It was neither cool for drinking (like the spring water in nearby Colassae), nor hot for therapeutic uses (like in Hieropolis), but instead was lukewarm, mineral-infused water that was putrid to the taste. In other words, it was, in a sense, good for nothing. Which is what a human vessel becomes to GOD when it has the attitude that it doesn't need GOD because it has the riches of the world, or thinks it sees, or prides itself in looking good among men.

So I think lukewarmness in this case pertains more to the historical context rather than an attitude of indifference, or absence of zeal.

 

[John Zain]

Regarding lukewarm Christians...
I think it is important to consider the context in this particular case. From what I've read, Laodicea did not have its own water source and received water via aqueduct from the hot springs in nearby Hieropolis. The water from there became tepid, or lukewarm, by the time it reached Laodicea. It was neither cool for drinking (like the spring water in nearby Colassae), nor hot for therapeutic uses (like in Hieropolis), but instead was lukewarm, mineral-infused water that was putrid to the taste. In other words, it was, in a sense, good for nothing. Which is what a human vessel becomes to GOD when it has the attitude that it doesn't need GOD because it has the riches of the world, or thinks it sees, or prides itself in looking good among men.
So I think lukewarmness in this case pertains more to the historical context rather than an attitude of indifference, or absence of zeal.

Geez Louise,

I'd say Jesus was being very complimentary by only describing them as lukewarm.
They were "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked" (Rev 3:17) SPIRITUALLY!
IMO, they were cold.

BTW, last October, I was all around the Hieropolis area!


From the NKJV ...

“… God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit
and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel …” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

“For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one …” (Hebrews 2:11)

“For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14)

“For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” (Romans 8:14)

“… to us who are being saved it (the gospel) is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18)

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

John Zain:
Are you Born again ?
Will you make it through the sanctification process ?
How ?
By your own merit ?

Why do you feel some "born again's" will not make it ?
Do you feel you are more Holy than others ?
How do you measure your Holiness ?
How do you measure everybody else's Holiness ?
And by what authority ?

Why did you change your name to evangelist - 7
Changing disguises ?

Thanks.

.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Born-again Christians should realize John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, etc. are out of context with the NT.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo” implies an authentic,
active, abiding belief in Jesus … However, there are other instances when
“pisteuo” is used in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!
So, “believes in” above must mean: depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.
I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers about
falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) and overcome sin.
But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!
This is the reason for all of these MANY WARNINGS in the NT.

Matt 7:13-14 • Difficult is the narrow way leading to eternal life, and few find it.
Matt 7:21-23 • Those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 10:39 • He who loses his old sinful life for Jesus sake will find eternal life.
Matt 16:24-26 • Deny (lose) your old sinful life and follow Jesus to find eternal life.
Mark 11:25-26 • If you do not forgive everyone, Father God will not forgive your sins.
John 3:36 • Believe what Jesus says, or incur God’s wrath and lose eternal life.
John 12:25 • He who hates his life in this world will keep his life for eternity.
Rom 2:7-9 • Wrath to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
Rom 8:13 • Follow the Spirit and put to death the works of the flesh to gain eternal life.
Rom 8:14 • As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 Cor 6:9-10 • People committing these sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 9:27 • Paul disciplined his body into subjection so he should not be disqualified.
1 Cor 13:5 • Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
1 Cor 15:2 • You are saved, if you hold fast to the word, unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 7:10 • Godly sorrow leads Christians to repent, leading to salvation.
Gal 5:19-21 • Believers who practice such sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 • Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 6:7-8 • Sowing to the flesh reaps corruption; sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
Eph 5:3-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
Eph 5:25-27 • Jesus gave Himself for a Church which will be holy and without blemish.
Phil 2:12-13 • Work out your salvation with fear and trembling (for God is working in you).
Col 1:21-23 • Jesus reconciles those who continue in faith, and who hope in the gospel.
Col 3:5-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
1 Thes 5:8 • Put on the helmet of the hope of salvation.
1 Tim 5:11-12 • Some believers are condemed because they have cast off their first faith.
Heb 2:1-4 • How shall we escape, if we drift away and neglect so great a salvation?
Heb 3:8,15 • Do not harden your hearts as in the OT rebellion in the wilderness.
Heb 3:11 • God swore in His wrath that the disobedient Jews would not enter His rest.
Heb 3:12 • Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 • Partakers of Christ hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 3:17-19 • Those who sinned died in the wilderness, not entering in due to unbelief.
Heb 3:18-19 • It is unbelief that causes disobedience.
Heb 4:1 • Let us fear lest any of us seems to have come short of entering His rest.
Heb 4:3 • About the disobedient, God swore in His wrath, “They shall not enter My rest.”
Heb 4:6 • God’s chosen people did not enter in because of disobedience.
Heb 4:11 • Beware, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
Heb 6:4-8 • Those partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
Heb 10:26-27 • Believers who sin willfully can expect God’s fiery judgment.
Heb 10:29-31 • God will fearfully avenge believers who insult the Spirit of grace.
Heb 10:36-39 • Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
Heb 12:14 • Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Pet 1:8-9 • Believing, you will receive the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
2 Pet 1:10-11 • Be diligent to make your call and election sure, gaining the kingdom.
2 Pet 2:20-22 • A believer who returns to his sins is worse off than he was before.
1 Jn 2:3-5 • We are sure that we know God, if we keep His commandments.
Rev 2-3 • All 7 churches are warned to repent and be overcomers to be: given the crown of life,
clothed in white garments, a pillar in the temple of God, not hurt by the second death, etc.
Rev 21:7-8 • People committing these sins will go into the lake of fire (the seconddeath).
Rev 21:27 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.

The TRUTH of the matter is all of God's ELECT will make it through the sanctification process, as Jesus has said so himself. Whether you're at the end and have only produced 30, 60 or whatever amount you finish with.


God is the one who began this good work in you, and I am certain that he won't stop before it is complete on the day that Christ Jesus returns. Php 1:6


But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Mat 13:23

The quantity may not be there until face to face with Christ but the quality is there throughout.

-----------------------------​

Beloved (elect), now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 1Jn 3:2-3

 

[John Zain]

IMO, BACs have every right to walk away from the faith, and some (many?) have done so!
Then, also, we have the lukewarm folks who are on the fence ... not really walking away (in our minds).

 

[williemac]

Geez Louise,

I'd say Jesus was being very complimentary by only describing them as lukewarm.
They were "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked" (Rev 3:17) SPIRITUALLY!
IMO, they were cold.

Your opinion of Jesus in this passage and your interpretation of the passage itself are both the unfortunate result of not incorporating how to find truth by examining a context. I mean, c'mon. How is it that one is actually blind and naked? Does it not occur to you that this is because they lack the Spirit? Read the whole message to that church. Jesus gave them a solution. He counseled them to buy from Him gold refined in the fire...." that you may be rich, and white garments, that you may be clothed.." ...."and anoint your eyes with eye salve that you may see"

So then do we use our own opinion as to just how they were to do all of this? No. We keep reading.


Here is how....." behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hear My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me"..
Here then is the solution to lukewarmness. The indwelling presence of God. This is what they were missing. This is what constitutes lukewarmness.
Lukewarm is not what you say it is. It is what the bible says it is. Humble yourself and be corrected, my friend.

 

[John Zain]

" behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hear My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me"..
Here then is the solution to lukewarmness. The indwelling presence of God.
This is what they were missing. This is what constitutes lukewarmness.

We iz discussing the lukewarm Laodicean church in Revelation 3:14-22.

My friend Willie ...
There is a very strong possibility that this refers to having a personal relationship with Jesus.
'Twas my understanding that those whom God chastens (3:19) are His people.
The Lord does not rebuke and chasten unbelievers!
Better go back to the olde drawing board, as they say, and try again.