Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process!

[101G]

Isaiah 4:3 "And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: 4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. 5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. 6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain".


Isaiah 8:13 "Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken."


1 Peter 2:4 "To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Born-again Christians should realize John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, etc. are out of context with the NT.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo” implies an authentic,
active, abiding belief in Jesus … However, there are other instances when
“pisteuo” is used in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!
So, “believes in” above must mean: depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

John Zain .... I also meant to say I agree with what you said about "believe" used in the proper context

eg: when a person correctly ... "believes in Jesus" ..... it is in the context of putting his full confidence and trust and life into the hands of Jesus as savior

As opposed to those people who were around Jesus , they saw him doing his work and miracles .... obviously they "believed" he was there in front of them doing those things ...... but they still were unbelievers as far as following Him as their Savior ..... the Pharisees were a good example of that.

Even in modern day we see those things ..... a lot of people "believe" there was a historical Jesus who was some kind of a lovey nicey type guy ... but reject him as the Son of The Creator sent here to provide salvation.

 

[mjrhealth]

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, so that they might nourish her there a thousand, two hundred and sixty days.

The wildernes is not a physical place, it is seperation fromn teh world so God can prepare you just as He did Jesus. So many have eyes and cannot see, ears and cannot hear. Put these things to Jesus, and see if He will not answer you.

In All His Love

 

[Harry3142]

Those who choose to follow a set of laws while believing that they can sanctify themselves through the keeping of those laws will receive a rude awakening:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

and

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." (Romans 9:30-33,NIV)

The righteousness that all mankind needs in order to be seen as righteous by God himself is a righteousness which we cannot earn as a salary or purchase as an asset. It's God's own righteousness, and our only means of obtaining it is to humbly and contritely request it of him. And he is willing to give us this gift if we accept the blood shed by his Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross as atoning for our sins. The proud and haughty will be brought low, but those of us who confess that we are sinners, saved only through God's own work successfully accomplished through his Son, Jesus Christ, have assurance that we will be able to stand before his throne cleansed of our sins.

As well, our conduct as Christians is in reality due to another gift from God if it truly conforms to what God wants of us. For instead of obeying a set of laws, our conduct is to show an entirely new nature's having taken control of our actions:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

There's an old saying: "He did all the right things, but for all the wrong reasons." As Christians we need to remember that saying. It's not enough that we do the right things; if the motivations which lead to our performing those actions are any of those listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature', then our actions must be seen as evil due to the underlying motivations' being evil. And it is those very motivations which lie at the core of our original, and sinful, nature.

In order for our actions to truly conform to God's will, the motivations which lead to those actions must also conform to God's will. And that can only occur when those motivations are 'the fruit of the Spirit'. It is when they are the impetus for our actions, and only then, that those actions have assurance of being 'in synch' with what God wants of us. Just as the motivations listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' can be identified as the origin of all sinful acts, the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' can be identified as the origin of all acts of righteousness. That's why the words immediately following the listing of these 'fruit' are, "Against such things there is no law."

And how do we obtain these 'fruit'? We obtain them when the Spirit of God comes to dwell within us. And why does the Spirit dwell within us? He does so as a result of our accepting God's gift of salvation in the manner that God offers it. So for both our salvation and the ability to live lives worthy of being called 'Christian' we are to give God the credit.

 

[John Zain]

How about I just take one and refute it .... then you can go through the rest in a like manner
The first one on your list is .... Matt 7:13-14 • Difficult is the narrow way leading to eternal life, and few find it.
Jesus is instructing his listeners (to believe Him) and enter the narrow gate (for eternal life)
Read that again.... entering by the narrow gate is eternal life

Arnold,
How about we refute this one before continuing on?
Matt 7:13-14 • Difficult is the narrow way leading to eternal life, and few find it.
Da narrow road just leads to eternal life, which is found @ the end of the road,
if thou makes it that far, that is.

Those in the OT had the blood of bulls and goats. We have the blood of Christ. Which is superior?

Yes, let's talk about which is superior ... but please sit down first ....

In the old covenant ... God's chosen people who were NOT obedient
were left scattered all over the desert floor.

In the new covenant ... God's chosen people who are NOT obedient
will suffer a worse fate, according to Hebrews 4 (i.e. Paul?)
... because these people have the Holy Spirit to greatly help them do things right!

 

[bytheway]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world (orderly arrangement) etc. What God loved was the order that the world once had and was lost in the fall. He sent His Son to reestablish the orderly arrangement. God will not operate where disorder holds sway. Proper order is vacant in many western gatherings. An example would be Pastors.The only time a pastor was in charge in the early Church was when the Apostle, Prophet and Teacher were out of town. The Order that God wants among His people is found in1 Corinthians 12. We still have alot of thumb suckers that havn't been to the school of the Spirit. Church was meant to be like sand box,grade school,middle, high school,college and graduate school. I don't blame the people,I do blame those seeking to have a bigger building etc.the Lord is not empressed. Feed the sheep........Ezekkiel 34. first order then eternal life.

 

[John Zain]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world (orderly arrangement) etc. What God loved was the order that the world once had and was lost in the fall. He sent His Son to reestablish the orderly arrangement. God will not operate where disorder holds sway. Proper order is vacant in many western gatherings. An example would be Pastors.The only time a pastor was in charge in the early Church was when the Apostle, Prophet and Teacher were out of town. The Order that God wants among His people is found in1 Corinthians 12. We still have alot of thumb suckers that havn't been to the school of the Spirit. Church was meant to be like sand box,grade school,middle, high school,college and graduate school. I don't blame the people,I do blame those seeking to have a bigger building etc.the Lord is not empressed. Feed the sheep........Ezekkiel 34. first order then eternal life.

Art thou saying that most churches have been teaching some false doctrine for 1900 years
by ignoring the NT church's order re: 1 Cor 12?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Arnold,
How about we refute this one before continuing on?
Matt 7:13-14 • Difficult is the narrow way leading to eternal life, and few find it.
Da narrow road just leads to eternal life, which is found @ the end of the road,
if thou makes it that far, that is.

I would agree .... even for myself .... I am on the narrow road .... with varying degrees of success ..... plenty of difficulties on the narrow road .... and true ..... I am not at the end of the road yet (eternal life)

Now if I slack off as a christian ..... does that mean I slide back down to the gate of the narrow road .... fall outside into the world of the unsaved ?

If so .... it means Christ as my savior is insufficient ..... and mostly my salvation depends on the grip tires of my narrow road vehicle.

I would be just as well off with Moses and the Law.

.......................

Now .... if I read your thinking correctly .... and the topic of this thread ..... here is what you are really wanting to say .....

.... if everyone follows the narrow road exactly the way John Zain demands & approves .... then we have eternal life ....

Right ?

 

[John Zain]

Okay, let's move forward some more ...

In the OT, God gave His chosen people EVERY advantage to be successful.
But, the problem was ...
He also gave them THE LAW, which as it turned out, was impossible for them to follow!
They had NO Holy Spirit to help them (the "Paraclete" is called "the Helper" in the NJKV).

Note: all of this was done to PROVE to everyone that man is UNABLE to satisfy God.

HEADS UP NOW ...

Even though God knew 'twas impossible for them to follow THE LAW,
He gave it to them, and they DISOBEYED it ...
... and they were left scattered all over the desert floor. Sorry to be so graphic!

Now Paul comes along in Hebrews 3 & 4, WARNING US to not end up like these Israelites.

And then he hits us up with this ... concerning born-again Christians ...
Hebrews 10:
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy
who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant
by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said,“Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Okay, let's move forward some more ...

In the OT, God gave His chosen people EVERY advantage to be successful.
But, the problem was ...
He also gave them THE LAW, which as it turned out, was impossible for them to follow!
They had NO Holy Spirit to help them (the "Paraclete" is called "the Helper" in the NJKV).

I have to disagree that the children of Israel didn't have access to the holy spirit. David begged GOD to not remove his holy spirit from him. The holy spirit has always been available to mankind searching the earth to assist those who's hearts are perfect towards GOD.

The difference in our age is that we have been baptized into one spiritual body by the spirit, and have knowledge that it is the spirit who is our teacher, and witness of our surety in heaven.

 

[John Zain]

I have to disagree that the children of Israel didn't have access to the holy spirit. David begged GOD to not remove his holy spirit from him. The holy spirit has always been available to mankind searching the earth to assist those who's hearts are perfect towards GOD.
The difference in our age is that we have been baptized into one spiritual body by the spirit, and have knowledge that it is the spirit who is our teacher, and witness of our surety in heaven.

IMO, God's Spirit in the OT was placed UPON His very specially called and anointed people,
e.g. the prophets, Saul, David, etc. ... but not UPON or INSIDE any of the regular folk.

Twice I think, a major prophet said God put His Spirit INSIDE of him,
but I truly believe they were confused ... because in all other instances He came UPON.

And God's anointed people in the NT were given the Spirit UPON.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

IMO, God's Spirit in the OT was placed UPON His very specially called and anointed people,
e.g. the prophets, Saul, David, etc. ... but not UPON or INSIDE any of the regular folk.

I don't think there's any realistic rationale for this idea.

 

[John Zain]

IMO, God's Spirit in the OT was placed UPON His very specially called and anointed people,
e.g. the prophets, Saul, David, etc. ... but not UPON or INSIDE any of the regular folk.

I don't think there's any realistic rationale for this idea.

No, absolutely none ... except for Scripture!
I can easily give you the NT refs, but not the OT ones easily.
Surely, you've read ... "The Spirit of the Lord is UPON me ...".

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No, absolutely none ... except for Scripture!
I can easily give you the NT refs, but not the OT ones easily.
Surely, you've read ... "The Spirit of the Lord is UPON me ...".

No, I mean I don't think it's realistic to state that common folk didn't have the holy spirit. The holy spirit has always been with mankind seeking out and teaching those with faith.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

What's a born again christian to you. Is it one who simply responds to the gospel or is it gospel + a second work of the 'holy spirit', evidenced by talking in tongues etc?

 

[bytheway]

Art thou saying that most churches have been teaching some false doctrine for 1900 years
by ignoring the NT church's order re: 1 Cor 12?

More like evade. Every denomination started with a primary truth, then heads got involved, attempts to bring God down into the arena of human understanding were of course.futile. Godly order through the doma gifiting is vital. Sad to say most only see a Pastor once or twice a week.The lost are tired of looking at us,they want to see Jesus.Until someone isn't worried that another may preach better, love more etc. When His people see and percieve 5 fold ministry in action w/Order then they have seen Him!

 

[101G]

God have alway been with his people, but the ones anointed had the Holy Spirit come upon them. the difference is, he, the Holy Spirit didn't "ABIDE", or "DWELL", in them forever, as he do today in us. even the prophet Isaiah declared that he was undone, and with sinful lips, as well as the people of his day. the angel purge him. not the rest of the people. that's what the Lord did for us. he took away the sin of the WORLD, FOR ALL PEOPLE. for since sin was in the world, there was a separation of God and all his people. the Spirit couldn't abide in Man, for stench in his nose, sin. but we have new testament scripture to prove that the Spirit was in the prophets.
1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow". Even John the Baptist father proved that. Luke 1:67 "And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied". and John's father was under the old testament covenant. but did the Spirit dwell in him?. Even with the devout, and just man before God, Simeon, the holy Spirit only was "UPON" him. Luke 2:25 "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him". but did the Spirit "ABIDE" IN him?.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Okay, let's move forward some more ...

In the OT, God gave His chosen people EVERY advantage to be successful.
But, the problem was ...
He also gave them THE LAW, which as it turned out, was impossible for them to follow!
They had NO Holy Spirit to help them (the "Paraclete" is called "the Helper" in the NJKV).

Note: all of this was done to PROVE to everyone that man is UNABLE to satisfy God.

HEADS UP NOW ...

Even though God knew 'twas impossible for them to follow THE LAW,
He gave it to them, and they DISOBEYED it ...
... and they were left scattered all over the desert floor. Sorry to be so graphic!

Agreed

Now Paul comes along in Hebrews 3 & 4, WARNING US to not end up like these Israelites.

And then he hits us up with this ... concerning born-again Christians ...
Hebrews 10:
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy
who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant
by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said,“Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Here is where we differ John

I am going to split hairs and say that the warning was about people who had knowledge of salvation (Christ) .... but did not partake in it (thus they never were saved) ..... (and if they never were saved , they cannot " lose salvation")

(To me verse 26 splits those hairs) ...... 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

(Notice it does not say .... "after we have received salvation" )

And we must always remember that Hebrews was written to religious Jews who were new Christians , or jews who had been exposed to the "knowledge of Christ" .... and were being warned not to go back to being Jews under the law .... if they were to do that , they would be trampling the son of god underfoot .

I think what the authors of Hebrews meant when he said in vs 26 ..... 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning refers to rejecting Christ (remaining in sin) .... as opposed to accepting Christ (free of sin)

Yes John Zain .... like I said I am splitting hairs ..... but in Hebrews we (gentiles) have to.

By the way ..... it was a devout synagog Jew who became a christian who explained Hebrews to me .... he said everything makes perfect sense to someone like him ..... and we (non Jews) have a hard time with the book of Hebrews because of course (most of us) do not come from a religious Jewish background.

Bottom line .... the book of Hebrews was not written for Gentile Christians in the first place ..... so we should not be doing it now either.

Hope that helps.

 

[williemac]

Agreed



Here is where we differ John

I am going to split hairs and say that the warning was about people who had knowledge of salvation (Christ) .... but did not partake in it (thus they never were saved) ..... (and if they never were saved , they cannot " lose salvation")

(To me verse 26 splits those hairs) ...... 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

(Notice it does not say .... "after we have received salvation" )

And we must always remember that Hebrews was written to religious Jews who were new Christians , or jews who had been exposed to the "knowledge of Christ" .... and were being warned not to go back to being Jews under the law .... if they were to do that , they would be trampling the son of god underfoot .

I think what the authors of Hebrews meant when he said in vs 26 ..... 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning refers to rejecting Christ (remaining in sin) .... as opposed to accepting Christ (free of sin)



By the way ..... it was a devout synagog Jew who became a christian who explained Hebrews to me .... he said everything makes perfect sense to someone like him ..... and we (non Jews) have a hard time with the book of Hebrews because of course (most of us) do not come from a religious Jewish background.

Bottom line .... the book of Hebrews was not written for Gentile Christians in the first place ..... so we should not be doing it now either.

Hope that helps.

Wonderful reply. Amen!!

Re. the blood of bulls and goats vs. the blood of Jesus.


Yes, let's talk about which is superior ... but please sit down first ....

In the old covenant ... God's chosen people who were NOT obedient
were left scattered all over the desert floor.

In the new covenant ... God's chosen people who are NOT obedient
will suffer a worse fate, according to Hebrews 4 (i.e. Paul?)
... because these people have the Holy Spirit to greatly help them do things right!

I am not disputing the presence and power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The remark I made concerning the sacrifices had to do with how God looks at sin and deals with sin in His children. We have it worse? Really? The old sacrifices were superior? I think you should be barking up another tree.

Here is essentially the doctrine that you are selling us; You are saying that we receive eternal life and the Holy Spirit so that we can take advantage of His help, so that we can earn our salvation by works. This is an endless circle. We get salvation by faith but then have to earn it after that, by works? O yes, by works through the help and power of the Holy Spirit. This is your sales pitch? How in the world would anyone call your version of the gospel "good news". I have good news for you...we have it worse!! Is that your message? Which is it? Good or bad?

This to me shows the failure to grasp the concept. The Holy Spirit is given as a guarantee of our inheritance. He is not there to help us get saved by works. We are not saved by works, don't you know? If we were, then Paul was mistaken in saying that we are not. Even if we have the Holy Spirit helping us to do it right, then we are still in a position of boasting when we do it right. This is not acceptable in God's eyes. He has erased all cause for boasting.

Since you refer to Heb.4, then let us look at vs. 10..." For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His" . But lets go back to vs. 2 and get the foundation for this chapter..." For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. vs.3...." For we who have believed do enter that rest...."

It is all about faith, which humbly accepts the free gift of life that is offered by the work of ONE MAN (Rom.5:15-19). This is most definitely a faith vs. works discussion. You really want to go there? Why are you not willing to rest from your works for salvation? (with the help of the Holy Spirit)

 

[KingJ]

Born-again Christians should realize John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, etc. are out of context with the NT.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

All you had to say is that ''believing'' in John 3:16 needs further clarification. John starts off by saying that 'Jesus is His only begotten Son', something nobody can believe without the Holy Spirit revealing it to them 1 Cor 12:3 , Matt 16:16-17. God will only reveal this to His children as He searches our hearts Jer 17:10, Luke 16:15. God has done this OT and NT. Hence believing is not trusting history (http://thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html) as even the devils believe, James 2:19. It is referring to a deeper / spiritual knowing that Jesus is Lord.

Hence John 3:16 lines up perfectly with all the other scripture you quoted.

IMO, God's Spirit in the OT was placed UPON His very specially called and anointed people,
e.g. the prophets, Saul, David, etc. ... but not UPON or INSIDE any of the regular folk.

As Christrosefromthedead has pointed out already, this is heresy. Lol, Jesus died for the regular folk. The regular folk were the God fearing in the OT. Don't let heresy in John, God is impartial, you do know better! In a rush when you wrote that? :unsure: