Not by works - but by faith

[Eternally Grateful]

why couldn't they be two depictions of the same judgement?

1. Because they are two different types of judgment

A krino judgment and a Bema judgment have different purposes..

2. Because of the end result

Bema:

Those at the bema are given rewards for their works. God silver precious stone, wood hay and straw. And even the one who has nothign to show for his work (its all ash) he himself is still saved even as through fire

Only believers are at the bema, When paul says we all, he speaks of believers, not those who are dead in christ

Krino

People are not resurrected By Christ, They are delivered to him for judgment

All who attend this judgment are found guilty

The dead who are judged here will suffer the second death

 

[bbyrd009]

2. Because of the end result

wadr bc you are determined to go up to heaven after you have died, to become an immortal, i guess
No one has ever gone up to heaven
There is only One Immortal
you and your sons will be here with me
.

When paul says we all, he speaks of believers

ok, go with that then if you like, but wadr you inserted that part yourself see. Paul never said "we believers" anywhere

 

[Eternally Grateful]

well, so you say, but wadr i would sure disagree, and i guess i could gather some witnesses that would too. Now dont get me wrong, the day one's redemption is fulfilled might not be today, as only Yah knows when, but there is no reason it could not be today either, except for those who seek to go up to heaven after they have died of course

Romans 8:23
Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Here paul tells us when the day of redemption will be Our redemption will not be complete until our bodies are redeemed, On the day we are resurrected

Paul tells us in eph we are sealed until this day

He tells us again in eph not to grieve the HS again informing us we are sealed until the day of redemption

 

[Eternally Grateful]

wadr bc you are determined to go up to heaven after you have died, to become an immortal, i guess
No one has ever gone up to heaven
There is only One Immortal
you and your sons will be here with me
.

Eternity with God. That is where I determine to go after I am resurrect.

I showed you two judgments using 2 greek words and two end results. Would you like to discuss them?

ok, go with that then if you like, but wadr you inserted that part yourself see. Paul never said "we believers" anywhere

So I guess paul was talking to non believers?

 

[Cristo Rei]

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It is not by any kind of good work, or work of righteousness which we have done, are doing or will do. But By Gods mercy we HAVE been saved (a completed action) through the washing (sins washed) and Renewal (new birth) of the Holy Spirit.We HAVE BEEN justified. and because of that, As paul said in Eph 1. Well here. Lets let Paul speak

Eph 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

As we can see here

1. He blessed us with every blessing
2. He chose us BEFORE the foundation of the world That we will be Holy and WITHOUT BLAME
3. He predestined, or pre-determined beforehand that we would be adopted as sons and daughters
4. He made us acceptable to God
5. He redeemed us, in this redemption we have the forgiveness of sins.

And how did we get all this? Well Paul tells the church at ephesus this and us also.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1. We trusted (true living faith)
2. After we heard the word, The gospel (eat the bread from heaven John 6)
3, After having this faith, we were sealed with the HS, who is our assurance UNTIL the day of redemption, or ressuraction day
4. And GOD gets the glory.

James is speaking of a false faith, a dead faith, A claimed faith, which has no life at all

One things I think we should remember, We are saved by Faith alone, But faith is NEVER alone

I don't think i said anything that disagrees with what u said.
I definitely didn't say we are saved by works. Maybe my wording was bad cos your the 2nd person that seems to think i was saying that

James isn't speaking a false faith. If that part of the bible is false then there are other parts of the bible that is false and so which parts are false
This view is an error cos the bible isn't false. We might misinterpret it but its not false

Say for example someone claims to be born again, saved. But they continue to live a life full of sin and bad deeds.
Protestants would say that he was never saved to begin with
A Catholic would say that he fell from grace

Many Protestants say that James is saying that because of faith in Christ the good deeds will follow
There are also many passages telling us that we will be judged on what we have done
So it's not like "ok im saved now i can do what i like and live in sin". That's what a lot of Christians do
We still have to follow Christs footsteps and bad deeds isn't his path

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't think i said anything that disagrees with what u said.
I definitely didn't say we are saved by works. Maybe my wording was bad cos your the 2nd person that seems to think i was saying that

James isn't speaking a false faith. If that part of the bible is false then there are other parts of the bible that is false and so which parts are false
This view is an error cos the bible isn't false. We might misinterpret it but its not false

Say for example someone claims to be born again, saved. But they continue to live a life full of sin and bad deeds.
Protestants would say that he was never saved to begin with
A Catholic would say that he fell from grace

James said their faith was dead. He did not say they had faith, then lost it

I think this is why where the confusion comes in.

How can we say we are not saved by works, if works are required to keep us from falling from grace or they are required in addition to faith to save us.

Many Protestants say that James is saying that because of faith in Christ the good deeds will follow
There are also many passages telling us that we will be judged on what we have done
So it's not like "ok im saved now i can do what i like and live in sin". That's what a lot of Christians do
We still have to follow Christs footsteps and bad deeds isn't his path

James is talking to those who claim to have faith, but have never had works. To use james to declair that salvation can be lost is to take james out of context.

And saying I am saved no i can live in sin all I want. Who says this kind of Stuff? Are these doers of the word or hearers only? I would profess they are hearers only. Have these people repented? And if they have not (Which I declare is my belief) then have they ever been saved.

My response would be no. Because they have never had true saving faith, They may CLAIM to have faith. But they fact they are hearers only just shows they never had living faith and because they never had living faith, They never were saved by Grace through faith, and not of works (eph 2: 8-9) so they could be created into a new creature that does works (eph 2: 10)

and can we please not make this a catholic protestant issue? It is a bible issue, not a catholic protestant issue..

 

[bbyrd009]

Here paul tells us when the day of redemption will be Our redemption will not be complete until our bodies are redeemed, On the day we are resurrected

And you are welcome to accomplish that on the day of your ritual baptism, or by all means wait for some other day; only Yah knows when that may be

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And you are welcome to accomplish that on the day of your ritual baptism, or by all means wait for some other day; only Yah knows when that may be

I can't accomplish that on any day

Only God can. When I am resurrected, and this body of flesh is made spirit

 

[bbyrd009]

He tells us again in eph not to grieve the HS again informing us we are sealed until the day of redemption

Paul is jerking your chain, imo, So that if you desire to go up to heaven after you have died to become an immortal, Your believes may be revealed for what they are, Mithraism

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul is jerking your chain, imo, So that if you desire to go up to heaven after you have died to become an immortal, Your believes may be revealed for what they are, Mithraism

this makes no sense

Can you please explain

Paul is jerking my Chain??

 

[bbyrd009]

I can't accomplish that on any day

Only God can. When I am resurrected, and this body of flesh is made spirit

Horse Puckey, wadr, You are called to change your mind, all by yourself, you were called to pick up your cross, all by yourself, etc.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Horse Puckey, wadr, You are called to change your mind, all by yourself, you were called to pick up your cross, all by yourself, etc.

I can not resurrect myself from the dead. and take this body which is dead in sin, and make it alive spiritually, where there is no more pain, no more death, No more sorrow.

Only God can do this

 

[bbyrd009]

this makes no sense

Can you please explain

Paul is jerking my Chain??

Paul is hard to understand, and people interpret him “to their destruction.” A popular example that comes to mind is “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,” which cannot be found in the Bible

 

[bbyrd009]

I can not resurrect myself from the dead. and take this body which is dead in sin, and make it alive spiritually, where there is no more pain, no more death, No more sorrow.

Only God can do this

OK now remember the day you got ritually baptized? Remember what the preacher said? And go from there

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul is hard to understand, and people interpret him “to their destruction.” A popular example that comes to mind is “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,” which cannot be found in the Bible

Yet you quoted the words of Paul. which were found in the bible

Paul s not hard to understand if you study, He is only hard to understand when you take his words and try to impose your belief system to fit his words..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OK now remember the day you got ritually baptized? Remember what the preacher said? And go from there

Nope

That was over 40 years ago. I still live in my body of death..

Why would you try to impose the work of God to the work of Man?

 

[bbyrd009]

I came that you might have life more abundantly see no Death more abundantly in there at all

 

[bbyrd009]

Yet you quoted the words of Paul. which were found in the bible

Paul s not hard to understand if you study, He is only hard to understand when you take his words and try to impose your belief system to fit his words..

No, with all due respect I did not Quote Paul, And those words
cannot be found in the Bible, which unfortunately verifies your second statement Completely, only not the way you would hope I guess. If you care to bring up the verse we can take a look at it and see though

 

[bbyrd009]

Nope

That was over 40 years ago. I still live in my body of death..

Why would you try to impose the work of God to the work of Man?

By all means go with that then and I wish you the best in your quest for Immortal ity

To everyone else who wish to become a Christian, I suggest you pay attention to them words the preachers sayin as you’re getting baptized

 

[bbyrd009]

James said their faith was dead. He did not say they had faith, then lost it

This contrast might be realized in the difference in faith between those who believe they are going up to heaven after they have died, “dead faith;” And those who understand that they are resurrected it baptism, life more abundantly

 

[101G]

Paul is hard to understand, and people interpret him “to their destruction.” A popular example that comes to mind is “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,” which cannot be found in the Bible

this is correct, many miss the most important part of the scripture, listen and we'll highlight it for all to see. 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord".

this is the HOPE of GLORY, that we put off this body for the New body so that we can be with the Lord forever. that term "Willing"is an says it all, it's an expectation ready, eager, or prepared to do something. listen,
Romans 8:19 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 8:21 "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Romans 8:23 "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (THIS IS THE "WILLING OF 2 Corinthians 5:8).
Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? BINGO.
Romans 8:25 "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it". that's the willingness, to be change.


PICJAG.