Since you made the statement Alan, I think you should take us through the scriptures and show why you see a Pre-trib Rapture. Don't you?
Not many will make it through the GREAT TRIBULATION. Because of no faith.
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Since you made the statement Alan, I think you should take us through the scriptures and show why you see a Pre-trib Rapture. Don't you?
The pre-trib rapture was tought by Jesus and God's people in the Bible.
It didn't begin in the 1830s,
Show me where the Bible says the Church will go through the great tribulation, I mean the Church, Not the Elect Jews or the backsliders.
And I will show you ALL the scriptures that prove the pre-trib rapture.
The Bible teaches the pre-trib rapture, And I have already shown one scriptural proof, I can't help it if you don't believe the Bible.
Matt 24: 29--31 proves the pre-trib rapture.
Jesus is comuiing with His Church AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
V29, AFTER The tribulation.
V30, The tribes of the earth NOT THE CHURCH.
v30 Jesus is coming with His Church, [The clouds], Clouds Refers to people,
The Greek says Clouds are people. & the Bible does.
Jesus Acts 1: 9. Rev 14: 14. Bad people 2 Pet 2: 17. Jude 12... Two witnesses, Rev 11: 12.
Witnesses. Heb 12: 1
Where is Jesus coming from???, HEAVEN, And the raptured Saints are coming with Him.
Mat 25: 1--10 Shows the pre-trib rapture, V10, "They went into the marrige", The marige feast is in heaven DURING THE TRIBULATION PERIOD.
SO, How can the Church be in heaven at the marrige feast, And on the earth going through the tribulation at the same time??..
Wrong
The Church is already in heaven before the first trumpet sounds.
The trumpet 1 1 Cor 15, 52, Is the last trumpet the Church will hear at the pre-trib rapture.
There is no resurrected Saints at the last trumpet sound in the bokk of Revelation.
You didn't show me any proof, It was me who showed you the truth.
Nowhere does Matt 24 say the Church goes through the tribulation.
Why on earth do people wanr to tribulate when Jesus and Paul said we'll be delivered from it??.
I will, But I asked first,for the tribulators to show me where the Bible says the Church will go through the tribulation.
I mean the Church, Not the Elect Jews or the backsliders.
PLUS, I have given scriptures the prove the Church can't go through the tribulation period.
If I'm not mistaken I think there are plenty of threads on that subject. Can you tell me why the Lord has allowed the Church to go through so much tribulation since His resurrection? Surely, nothing worse is ahead than what has already taken place. People have been crucified, skinned, beheaded, slowly tortured, tongues cut out, starved, had their wives and children killed in front of them one at a time and I will spare everyone the rest. But, what is your opinion about why God has allowed all the past tribulation upon the Church?
God's children (born of the Spirit) are not appointed unto wrath and the Scriptures are clear about that. But the Scriptures are also clear that we will have persecution and tribulation in the world. Isn't that correct?
Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Act_14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
2Ti_3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
John 16:25
[sup]6 [/sup]“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. [sup]7 [/sup]Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. [sup]8 [/sup]For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
[sup]9 [/sup]“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. [sup]10 [/sup]And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. [sup]11 [/sup]Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[sup][b][/sup] that they may be one as We are. [sup]12 [/sup]While I was with them in the world,[sup][c][/sup] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[sup][d][/sup] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. [sup]13 [/sup]But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. [sup]14 [/sup]I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. [sup]15 [/sup]I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. [sup]16 [/sup]They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. [sup]17 [/sup]Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. [sup]18 [/sup]As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [sup]19 [/sup]And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
[sup]6 [/sup]“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. [sup]7 [/sup]Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. [sup]8 [/sup]For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
[sup]9 [/sup]“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. [sup]10 [/sup]And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. [sup]11 [/sup]Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[sup][b][/sup] that they may be one as We are. [sup]12 [/sup]While I was with them in the world,[sup][c][/sup] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[sup][d][/sup] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. [sup]13 [/sup]But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. [sup]14 [/sup]I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. [sup]15 [/sup]I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. [sup]16 [/sup]They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. [sup]17 [/sup]Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. [sup]18 [/sup]As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [sup]19 [/sup]And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
Hey guys. I'm a little worried that this thread is beginning to descend into "I'm right, you're wrong...my verses trump your verses". We have seen this over and over again on other threads, especially eschatological ones...and it never leads anywhere good. You guys are not going to agree, you are convinced in your own minds what scriptures says. So at this point, as you've said your piece, please back off. Arguing and accusations are hardly edifying and honestly, it seems to make a mockery of a wonderful subject...the return of our Lord!
So please keep it civil, or the thread will have to be locked.
So please keep it civil, or the thread will have to be locked.
I think that regardless of your 'end time' beliefs, we should all live each day like we expect Jesus to return then....The Church will go through some kind of tribulation, Unbelievers,Religious people and the devil will see to that.
But the Church won't go through the great tribulation that the anti-christ will bring.
Jesus said In thie world we'll have trouble, But He aslo said, Be of good cheer hor He has overcome it for us.
The original meaning is,
I have diarmed it of it's power to harm you.
Sure we'll be persicuted, But we will get the victory if we stand and take our God given authority over it.
Alan, many people today in this world (in the Church) are going through "Great Tribulation". It is a nonsensical argument to try to measure plain old non "great" tribulation with "Great tribulation" and it seems the ones that always engage in that debate have never had ANY tribulation at all. There are many people that have gone through "great tribulation" since the resurrection of Jesus Christ and would you try to convince those martyrs that believe they went throught "great tribulation" that they were mistaken and their "Great Tribulation" was really JUST tribulation?
I'm sorry, but there is great tribulation for the Church in every generation. Can you seriously read the stories of the martyrdom of the Church today around the world and in history and just sluff it off as "mere" tribulation?
Tell me how Great Tribulation that you see coming is going to be different than an "Great Tribulation" that the Church has gone through in the last 2000 years. I am referring to qualitative tribulation not quantitative. Do you understand what I mean by that?
Matt.24:21-26 specifically, because Christ's elect IS... His Church.
One of the craziest mistakes those on the false pre-trib secret rapture theory make with that is treating those of Christ's elect mentioned there in Matt.24:22 & 24 like they are Orthodox Jews!!!
Haven't you understood that orthodox Jews do NOT accept Jesus Christ as The Saviour??? So how could unbelieving Jews be Christ's own elect? They are not. Only those of His Church are His elect servants. And His elect Apostles and disciples were definitely the beginnings of His New Testament Church per history! That's why until those elect are gathered, then no one else is either, for Christ comes to gather all... of His elect still alive on earth when He appears.
That's why you MISSED the very last verse below...
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)
Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)
Matt.24:31 - saints gathered "from one end of heaven to the other" = the asleep saints
Mark 13:27 - saints gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" = alive saints still on earth
That is in perfect alignment with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 that Christ's servants still alive on earth that remain shall not 'precede' the saints that sleep in Jesus which He will bring with Him when He comes. (The Greek word for "prevent" in 1 Thess.4 actually means 'precede', i.e., go beforehand). That is FURTHER Biblical proof that Christ was specifically talking about the gathering of His Church in those Matt.24 and Mark 13 examples. And timing HE gave there for that is AFTER the tribulation like He said.
You're simply drunken spiritually on the doctrines of men, an idea that Apostle Paul ALSO taught in 1 Thess.5 about those deceived about Christ's coming.
Many people that belong to the Protestant organization, starting from John Darby onward have made predictions about how things were supposed to unfold i.e. Darby, Pat Robinson, Hal Lindsey on and on, yet everyone of them have failed in their predictions
.Why should you Protestants think, while participating here today, that your individual interpretation is any different from these other (erroneous) interpretations, especially when most Protestants haven't a clue on how to understand apocalyptic language found in Daniel and Revelation. A simple litmus test is all your varied conflicting interpretations of Holy Scripture. Sola Scriptura is a bogus doctrine inspired from satan,that along with all of the untruths, half-truths, exaggerations and plain malarky found on all of your anti-Catholic websites, If you want to know exactly what the Church of Christ teaches then find a Catholic website, one that is truly Catholic.
During World War II many radio preachers (yes, they had them back then) were convinced Hitler was the Antichrist and Mussolini (or perhaps FDR) was the False Prophet (Rev. 16:13). These folks produced all sorts of biblical texts to prove their statements, yet they were all wrong. The moral of the story is that we should be careful about interpreting a highly symbolic and apocalyptic book such as Revelation and not be so quick to claim our views represent "the sure word of prophecy."
.Why should you Protestants think, while participating here today, that your individual interpretation is any different from these other (erroneous) interpretations, especially when most Protestants haven't a clue on how to understand apocalyptic language found in Daniel and Revelation. A simple litmus test is all your varied conflicting interpretations of Holy Scripture. Sola Scriptura is a bogus doctrine inspired from satan,that along with all of the untruths, half-truths, exaggerations and plain malarky found on all of your anti-Catholic websites, If you want to know exactly what the Church of Christ teaches then find a Catholic website, one that is truly Catholic.
During World War II many radio preachers (yes, they had them back then) were convinced Hitler was the Antichrist and Mussolini (or perhaps FDR) was the False Prophet (Rev. 16:13). These folks produced all sorts of biblical texts to prove their statements, yet they were all wrong. The moral of the story is that we should be careful about interpreting a highly symbolic and apocalyptic book such as Revelation and not be so quick to claim our views represent "the sure word of prophecy."
I will take that as a JESTING.
God reveals to whom what He will, and no flesh man on this earth can prevent it.
But for those who instead depend upon following the men of this world and their organizations and traditions, why should God show those anything? He won't, but will let them continue in their own deceptions.
God only left ALL of us His One Church with the apostles and their future successive replacements as its nucleus.
It was the Catholic Church through the Holy Spirit that gave us the canon of Holy Scripture.
I have to agree with axehead here....this thread is not about waving the banner of Protestantism or Catholicism...in fact we already know where that leads....no where holy.
I would also like to remind some people here that statements that basically outright states that they're right, so others are not only wrong...but they are very likely unsaved and having the wool pulled over their eyes...is not the kind of debate we want on this board. If you honestly believe others are mistaken, your sarcasm, narkiness and holier than thou-ness, is not going to help...at all. Let scripture speak for you. Keep it to biblical fact and the awesome fact that Jesus is returning. Otherwise, as we have seen all too often, the conversation will just de-evolve into name calling...hardly edifying.
I would also like to remind some people here that statements that basically outright states that they're right, so others are not only wrong...but they are very likely unsaved and having the wool pulled over their eyes...is not the kind of debate we want on this board. If you honestly believe others are mistaken, your sarcasm, narkiness and holier than thou-ness, is not going to help...at all. Let scripture speak for you. Keep it to biblical fact and the awesome fact that Jesus is returning. Otherwise, as we have seen all too often, the conversation will just de-evolve into name calling...hardly edifying.
Postmillennialism was popular with nineteenth-century Protestants, when progress was expected even in religion and before twentieth-century horrors were tasted. Today few hold to it, except such groups as Christian Reconstructionists, an outgrowth of the conservative Presbyterian movement.
The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church. This was the view of the Protestant Reformers and is still the most common view among traditional Protestants, though not among most of the newer Evangelical and Fundamentalist groups.
Third on the list is premillennialism, currently the most popular among Fundamentalists and Evangelicals (though a century ago amillennialism was). Most of the books written about the End Times, such as Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth, are written from a premillennial perspective.
Premillennialists often give much attention to the doctrine of the rapture. According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."
Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God’s people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational" view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.
But in the 1800s, some began to claim that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.
Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.
This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.
The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.
Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).
What’s the Catholic Position?
As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.
With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).
Spinning Wheels?
Many spend much time looking for signs in the heavens and in the headlines. This is especially true of premillennialists, who anxiously await the tribulation because it will inaugurate the rapture and millennium.
A more balanced perspective is given by Peter, who writes, "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8–14).
source
The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church. This was the view of the Protestant Reformers and is still the most common view among traditional Protestants, though not among most of the newer Evangelical and Fundamentalist groups.
Third on the list is premillennialism, currently the most popular among Fundamentalists and Evangelicals (though a century ago amillennialism was). Most of the books written about the End Times, such as Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth, are written from a premillennial perspective.
Premillennialists often give much attention to the doctrine of the rapture. According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."
Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God’s people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational" view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.
But in the 1800s, some began to claim that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.
Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.
This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.
The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.
Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).
What’s the Catholic Position?
As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.
With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).
Spinning Wheels?
Many spend much time looking for signs in the heavens and in the headlines. This is especially true of premillennialists, who anxiously await the tribulation because it will inaugurate the rapture and millennium.
A more balanced perspective is given by Peter, who writes, "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8–14).
source
Tribulation, Just means "Pressure", And it is different to the great comming tribulation that the ant-christ will give.
Christians do have pressure, Pressures from the world, The devil, false religions, And evern fron fellow Christians.
But the Bible say we wont go through the end time tribulation period.
The Elect gathered from the earth, Are the elect Jews, Not the Church., The pre-trub raptured Christians come back with Jesus, [The clouds] As the Bible teaches.
Nowhere does the Bible teach a rapture at the physical return of Jesus, But it does teach a pre-tribulation rapture.
revturmoil
New Member
AlanforChrist said,
The truth is...
The word "elect", always refers to Christians in the New Testament and never to Jews or non-Christian Jews.
The word elect is Strong's # 1588 which means...
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
The word is the same word as chosen and is used in the following verses where it always means Christians... whether Jew or gentile!
Matthew 20:16
John 13:18, 15:16
Acts 15:22, 15:25
Romans 8:33, 16:13
1 Corinthians 1:27-28
Ephesians 1:4
Colossians 3:12
James 2:5
2 Timothy 2:10
Titus 1:1
1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13 and,
Revelation 17:14
If God wanted the elect of Mathew 24 to mean Jews He would have used a different Greek word other than 'eklektos'!
Probably one of these...
1445.
Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from 1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.
1675.
Hellenistes hel-lay-nis-tace' from a derivative of 1672; a Hellenist or Greek-speaking Jew:--Grecian.
2453.
Ioudaios ee-oo-dah'-yos from 2448 (in the sense of 2455 as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah:--Jew(-ess), of Judaea.
The bible does teach a harvest from he who sits upon the clouds at the seventh and last trump!
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 ¶And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Alan also said,
It doesn't? Seems to me you've been drinking the pretribulational kool-aid!
What does this say...
2 Thessalonians 2:1 ¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
The word coming is 'parousia' and take a look at what it means...
1)
presence
2)
the coming, arrival, advent
a)
the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
There's not one verse of prophecy that say's Christ returns 'BEFORE" tribulation for any reason but many that say he returns after the tribulation just as Jesus said Himself...
"And immediately after the tribulation of those days...he will send his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather his elect out of the four winds from the extremities of the skies unto their extremities"(Matthew 24:29-31).
I'm going to stop here because of the endless fabrications, contradictions, and complications of pretribulationism. It's not worth the time to try to change the mind of any Christian who drinks pre-trib 'kool-aid'!
I've said this before...
There are three types of Christians.
The first group is those who believe what they are told to believe and never question it. Some Christians just accept what the denomination or the pastors teach and simply accept it no questions asked. They feel that they are the experts on the subject and just accept their teachings.
The second group contains those who believe whatever they want to believe regardless of the scriptural evidence. You and many others on this forum are part of that group. Thay typically don't have a hermeneutic and have accepted the research of others and have done their own 'biased' research. By those preconceived ideas they've come up with their own doctrines and prophecy beliefs regardless of the scriptural evidence....and refuse to change their minds! That's how people come up with pretribulationism and beliefs like "America is Babylon," or "Rome is Babylon," or "Mitt Romney is the anti-christ," or "a global dictator" and "a one world religion!"
The third group is made up of those who seek truth and are willing to change their mind regardless of what the truth is or where it may be found. You, as well as most people on this forum are part of the second group who believes what you do regardless of the evidence.
I disagree with the OP. It's my view that the tribulation period will be a time of growing faith in the church!
Don't allow yourself to be so easily misled.
The truth is...
The word "elect", always refers to Christians in the New Testament and never to Jews or non-Christian Jews.
The word elect is Strong's # 1588 which means...
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
The word is the same word as chosen and is used in the following verses where it always means Christians... whether Jew or gentile!
Matthew 20:16
John 13:18, 15:16
Acts 15:22, 15:25
Romans 8:33, 16:13
1 Corinthians 1:27-28
Ephesians 1:4
Colossians 3:12
James 2:5
2 Timothy 2:10
Titus 1:1
1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13 and,
Revelation 17:14
If God wanted the elect of Mathew 24 to mean Jews He would have used a different Greek word other than 'eklektos'!
Probably one of these...
1445.
Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from 1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.
1675.
Hellenistes hel-lay-nis-tace' from a derivative of 1672; a Hellenist or Greek-speaking Jew:--Grecian.
2453.
Ioudaios ee-oo-dah'-yos from 2448 (in the sense of 2455 as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah:--Jew(-ess), of Judaea.
The bible does teach a harvest from he who sits upon the clouds at the seventh and last trump!
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 ¶And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Alan also said,
It doesn't? Seems to me you've been drinking the pretribulational kool-aid!
What does this say...
2 Thessalonians 2:1 ¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
The word coming is 'parousia' and take a look at what it means...
1)
presence
2)
the coming, arrival, advent
a)
the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
There's not one verse of prophecy that say's Christ returns 'BEFORE" tribulation for any reason but many that say he returns after the tribulation just as Jesus said Himself...
"And immediately after the tribulation of those days...he will send his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather his elect out of the four winds from the extremities of the skies unto their extremities"(Matthew 24:29-31).
I'm going to stop here because of the endless fabrications, contradictions, and complications of pretribulationism. It's not worth the time to try to change the mind of any Christian who drinks pre-trib 'kool-aid'!
I've said this before...
There are three types of Christians.
The first group is those who believe what they are told to believe and never question it. Some Christians just accept what the denomination or the pastors teach and simply accept it no questions asked. They feel that they are the experts on the subject and just accept their teachings.
The second group contains those who believe whatever they want to believe regardless of the scriptural evidence. You and many others on this forum are part of that group. Thay typically don't have a hermeneutic and have accepted the research of others and have done their own 'biased' research. By those preconceived ideas they've come up with their own doctrines and prophecy beliefs regardless of the scriptural evidence....and refuse to change their minds! That's how people come up with pretribulationism and beliefs like "America is Babylon," or "Rome is Babylon," or "Mitt Romney is the anti-christ," or "a global dictator" and "a one world religion!"
The third group is made up of those who seek truth and are willing to change their mind regardless of what the truth is or where it may be found. You, as well as most people on this forum are part of the second group who believes what you do regardless of the evidence.
I disagree with the OP. It's my view that the tribulation period will be a time of growing faith in the church!
Thanks for that link Rex. I was aware of the Jesuit teachings of the Rapture from Duncan McDougall's "The Rapture of the Saints". Great little book if you can pick it up. He is from Scotland and lived during the first world war. He goes into detail regarding the book that Jesuit priest Emanual Lacunza wrote called "The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty". This was in 1747 and Lacunza of course, steeped in the current Jesuit teaching that the appearance and reign of AntiChrist was still in the future and to this lie added a touch of his own, namely that in order to make room for all the events which he anticipated at the coming of Christ there would have to be a period of time between the rapture of the saints and the actual appearance of the Messiah in His Glory. He conceived the idea that:
"when the Lord returns from heaven to earth upon His coming forth from heaven, and much before His arrival at the earth, He will give His orders and send forth His command as King and God omnipotent: "with a shout (in the Vulgate jussu, i.e. "by the order") with the voice of the archangel and with trump of God. At this voice of the Son of God, those who shall hear it shall forthwith arise, as saith the evangelist St. John (chapter 5:25) "those who hear shall live."
Here is the germ out of which sprang the whole theory that Christ was to come TWICE, once for His saints and again some time later WITH His saints.
Foreword from The Rapture of the Saints
Prophecy And Its Fulfillment - Historical Review
MANY PROFESSED "BIBLE TEACHERS" have been busy of late years in "Bible Studies," "Conventions," "revivals," religious papers, leaflets, and books, telling with an air of authority which amount almost to a claim to Divine inspiration, all about the "secret rapture" of the saints, and what is to take place on this earth after they are gone. According to their theory the Lord is to come SECRETLY for his saints: they are to be caught up (raptured) to meet Him in the air without the world knowing that anything is happening; all who are unprepared are to be left on earth in an unsaved state; then an individual known as the "Antichrist" is to make his appearance, to assume power as a world Dictator, to revive the old Roman Empire as a ten-kingdomed confederacy, and to rule over it, to make a covenant with the Jews to allow them to set up again their temple worship in Jerusalem, and at the end of three-and-a-half years to break the covenant and persecute them. After seven years' Christ is to come back with His saints to destroy the Antichrist and set up His reign of a thousand years on this earth. All these things are described in as much detail as if they were actually taught in the Bible, and even some good men have got the impression that the Bible does actually contain them.
It will come as a shock to many good people to be told not only that this teaching is not in the Bible, but that it was originated by the Bible's worst enemies! If Christians would only study God's Word, coming to the Bible with an open mind, instead of coming with their heads filled with the teachings of human and fallible men whom they treat as if inspired, they would not be so readily "carried away with very wind of doctrine."
And if they would accept the teaching of Christ that "a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit," or the warning given to Daniel that "none of the wicked shall understand," they would know better than to expect to get a clean bird out of a foul nest. The pity is that so many choose to remain ignorant of the nest out of which the bird has come, and so, "professing themselves to be wise," they proclaim their ignorance as it were on the house-tops. To these "blind leaders of the blind," ignorance is a Pearl of Great Price, and to offer them any enlightenment on historical facts is an attempt to rob them of their Precious Jewel. If any of them have ever read any of the writings of the Reformers on the subject of Prophecy, they seldom by the slightest allusion betray the fact. Being neither willing to admit nor able to refute, the wisdom of all these mighty Spirit-taught men of God, our modern Bible Teachers
studiously ignore them, and speak as if they themselves were the people, and wisdom had been born with them. One would never guess from the writings of these "Bible Teachers" that any expositor existed earlier than J N Darby. Naturally to tell them the truth is to become their enemy.
Have a read as I just found it online and never was able to find it in readable form before, except only to order it.
Click here –> The Rapture of the Saints by Duncan McDougall
Waiting for the Rapture That Never Comes…
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