NT Greek

[OzSpen]

Yes, I do not doubt your research degree is a real challenge. Sounds like you have invested a lot in it! I hope your defense statements go well. I completed my DMin about a year ago and am now enrolled in a PhD program. I too would have preferred the PhD, but at the time, there were no PhD programs available that allowed a seminar format (I didn't want to relocate). I am probably going to back off the PhD plan for now as finances and life situations have me jumping. I'd love to hear about books you felt were really compelling in your studies to this point. Im always looking for good reads.

My son is doing great. He will be 2 in about a month. My daughter also recently had an open heart surgery. She was born with Tetrology of Fallot. The surgery went really well and they are not expecting to have to do further surgeries for her. She is 5! There are some things I wish I were more ignorant about....heart surgeries is one of them. LOL

Blessings on your next defense!

Wormwood,

My presuppositions are those of evangelical Christianity that has a high view of the authority of Scripture. My PhD is in a very specialist area of historical Jesus studies. I'm critiquing a Jesus Seminar Fellow, John Dominic Crossan. Some of the books I found helpful were:

• N T Wright 2003. The Resurrection of the Son of God. Minneapolis: Fortress Press. It is very extensive research that challenges Crossan's view to the hilt in 817pp of brilliant, but relevant scholarship.
• Australian evangelical Anglican historian (taught ancient history at Macquarie University, Sydney), Dr Paul Barnett has a brilliant series on the historical Jesus:
• (a) Barnett, P W 1997. Jesus and the Logic of History. Leicester, England: Apollos (Inter-Varsity Press). This is the British edition.
• (b) Barnett, P 2003. Is the New Testament History? rev ed. Sydney South, Australia: Aquila Press.
• (c) Barnett, P 2005. The Birth of Christianity: The First Twenty Years (After Jesus, vol 1). Grand Rapids, Michigan/Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
• (d) Barnett, P 2008. Paul: Missionary of Jesus (After Jesus, vol 2). Grand Rapids, Michigan/Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
• (e) Barnett, P 2009. Finding the Historical Christ (After Jesus, vol 3). Grand Rapids, Michigan/Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
• Richard Bauckham has 538pp of substantive research in: Bauckham, R 2006. Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony. Grand Rapids, Michigan/Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
• If you want a brilliant expose of postmodernism by an evangelical scholar, I've found nothing to beat this one by Kev Vanhoozer: Vanhoozer, K J 1998: Is There a Meaning in This Text? Leicester, England/Grand Rapids, Michigan: Apollos (Inter-Varsity Press)/Zondervan Publishing House.

As another PhD option, why don't you consider what I did? Mine is by distance education through the NT department of the University of Pretoria, South Africa. It is highly accredited, much cheaper, and dissertation-only? Just a thought.

Your youngsters sure have some challenges with their hearts. May the Lord bless and encourage you at these times.

In Christ,
Oz

 

[aspen]

aspen,

Studying the history of Ancient Greece will not teach anyone the grammar of Koine Greek to be able to exegete the Greek NT. Exegeting Koine Greek is fundamental to understanding the English NT as Koine Greek is the original language of the NT.

Which is why I stated that there is nothing wrong with studying it.

 

[OzSpen]

Wormwood,

There's one other article that I should have recommended. I am dealing with a Jesus Seminar scholar who claims that Jesus' resurrection appearances were apparitions. Stephen Davis has refuted this position in a superb article (see Davis 1997 below). I have only read bits and pieces of the book in which this article appears (apart from Davis's article), but I purchased this book for the sole purpose of getting Stephen Davis's article. It was N T Wright who recommended this article in Wright (2003:323).

Works consulted
[SIZE=11pt]Davis, S T 1997. ‘Seeing’ the risen Jesus,[1][/SIZE] in Davis, S T, Kendall, D & O'Collins, G (eds), [SIZE=11pt]The resurrection: An interdisciplinary symposium on the resurrection of Jesus[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt], 126-147. Oxford: Oxford University Press. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Davis, S T 2006. Christian philosophical theology. Oxford: Oxford University Press.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Wright, N T 2003. The resurrection of the son of God. Minneapolis: Fortress Press. (Series in Christian origins and the question of God, vol 3).[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][1][/SIZE] This chapter also is available in Davis (2006:129-148).

 

[OzSpen]

Which is why I stated that there is nothing wrong with studying it.

It's not a matter of 'nothing wrong with studying it'. It's a matter that it is absolutely critical for an accurate exegesis of the NT to be able to exegete using the grammar of Koine Greek. 'Absolutely critical' does not equal 'nothing wrong'.

 

[OzSpen]

That's right Aspen, but the OP is about NT Greek, which IS Koine Greek, NOT ancient Greek.
It's not quibbling, it's clarification. I find too many people on forums like CB tend to equivocate instead of succinctly using the proper terminology or vernacular.
If anyone on this thread is confused by this, then please comment as to how you are confused?

Stan,

Here's a good article that articulates 'The Differences between Classical and Hellenistic Greek'. It shows how the vernacular, Koine, is an outgrowth of Classical (Attic) Greek. It also shows the differences as well. It cites A T Robertson's (one of the most brilliant Koine scholars of 20th century) understanding of the differences:

To all intents and purposes the vernacular κοινή is the later vernacular Attic with normal development under historical environment created by Alexander's conquests. On this base then were deposited varied influences from the other dialects, but not enough to change the essential Attic character of the language (Robertson, 71).

That's a pretty basic understanding of the differences.

Oz

 

[aspen]

It's not a matter of 'nothing wrong with studying it'. It's a matter that it is absolutely critical for an accurate exegesis of the NT to be able to exegete using the grammar of Koine Greek. 'Absolutely critical' does not equal 'nothing wrong'.

Sorry about giving you an agreement point - I do not agree with your post

It is not even absolutely critical to read the Bible, in regards to salvation. Since when did Jesus tell us to become Greek scholars? Islam demands that people learn the original language of the Koran; there are no such requirements in Christianity.

 

[StanJ]

Not everyone is succinct. Language can never convey exact meaning. My description of an event will always fall short of reporting exactly what happened - just like the bible. Also, there is nothing wrong with asking for clarification, but it is not always possible. Most of the time, I limit my clarification questions to the meaning of the forest, not the details of the trees.

The Bible was written with broad strokes, not scientific detail

A lot of people are, and good writers are. I can only assume that an INSPIRED Word of God is the most of ALL.

The Bible has broad and narrow strokes, depending on what God thought was important to communicate. Hence the added details in Gen 2:4-25 about creating male and female, which was originally depicted in Gen 1:27.

 

[StanJ]

Which is why I stated that there is nothing wrong with studying it.

and which is why as pertaining to the OP, I pointed out we weren't talking about Ancient Greek in this thread but about NT Greek.

 

[StanJ]

Sorry about giving you an agreement point - I do not agree with your post

It is not even absolutely critical to read the Bible, in regards to salvation. Since when did Jesus tell us to become Greek scholars? Islam demands that people learn the original language of the Koran; there are no such requirements in Christianity.

I suggest you read more of the Bible then.

John 20:31 (NIV)

We don't need to be Greek scholars, we have many fine scholars already translating the Greek into English.
The OP is about WANTING to study the NT Greek. What exactly are you not getting about the OP?

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

Here's a good article that articulates 'The Differences between Classical and Hellenistic Greek'. It shows how the vernacular, Koine, is an outgrowth of Classical (Attic) Greek. It also shows the differences as well. It cites A T Robertson's (one of the most brilliant Koine scholars of 20th century) understanding of the differences:
That's a pretty basic understanding of the differences.

Oz

Thanks Oz...I don't read enough of Robertson but I do appreciate his wisdom.

 

[JPPT1974]

I love all of the versions of the Bible whether KJV, NIT, etc. They are different in writings. But the Bible is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry about giving you an agreement point - I do not agree with your post

It is not even absolutely critical to read the Bible, in regards to salvation. Since when did Jesus tell us to become Greek scholars? Islam demands that people learn the original language of the Koran; there are no such requirements in Christianity.

aspen,

Second Timothy 4:2 (NLT) states, 'Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching'.

This is an exhortation to preachers to 'preach the word of God'. Is this the word of God in English, Hindi, Arabic, etc? To understand the Word in any language, it is of great benefit to understand the original languages and that is Koine Greek for the NT.

It is absolutely critical to read the Bible to understand salvation. Someone must read it, otherwise there is no message to preach.

There is more in the NT than the words of Jesus. Where did I say that we need to become Greek scholars? I didn't. However, understanding the Koine Greek of the original NT is of great help to any preacher of the NT.

Nowhere have I demanded of anyone the requirement to learn the original languages of the Bible. Therefore, your statement about the parallel with Islam is a straw man fallacy.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Thanks Oz...I don't read enough of Robertson but I do appreciate his wisdom.

Stan,

A T Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament is a marvellous resource for those who want some Greek exegetical skills for the NT. It's available online with BibleStudyTools.com. Sadly, BibleStudyTools has fiddled with some of the biblical references from the original by Robertson (I have it in hard copy) and have come up with the occasional wrong verse. I've been in online discussion with them about this in dealing with one verse in the Book of Acts. Nevertheless, it's a terrific resource and available free online.

Whenever we use it we need to give credit for were we obtained it.

Oz

 

[aspen]

aspen,

Second Timothy 4:2 (NLT) states, 'Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching'.

This is an exhortation to preachers to 'preach the word of God'. Is this the word of God in English, Hindi, Arabic, etc? To understand the Word in any language, it is of great benefit to understand the original languages and that is Koine Greek for the NT.

It is absolutely critical to read the Bible to understand salvation. Someone must read it, otherwise there is no message to preach.

There is more in the NT than the words of Jesus. Where did I say that we need to become Greek scholars? I didn't. However, understanding the Koine Greek of the original NT is of great help to any preacher of the NT.

Nowhere have I demanded of anyone the requirement to learn the original languages of the Bible. Therefore, your statement about the parallel with Islam is a straw man fallacy.

Oz

The gospel is love God and neighbor.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

A T Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament is a marvellous resource for those who want some Greek exegetical skills for the NT. It's available online with BibleStudyTools.com. Sadly, BibleStudyTools has fiddled with some of the biblical references from the original by Robertson (I have it in hard copy) and have come up with the occasional wrong verse. I've been in online discussion with them about this in dealing with one verse in the Book of Acts. Nevertheless, it's a terrific resource and available free online.

Whenever we use it we need to give credit for were we obtained it.

Oz

Actually I knew that, but just don't use that site much anymore. I use StudyLight.org and BlueLetterBible.org for studying mostly. Guess I have to create a bookmark for them again.
Thanks

 

[StanJ]

The gospel is love God and neighbor.

Well that is the two commands Jesus said the whole law hinges on, but the first and foremost is to have Jesus as savior and then know His written Word.
Remember Jesus was speaking to Pharisees about the LAW of the OLD covenant. His mission was to usher in the NEW Covenant which took the place of the LAW by a personal covenant with each believer.

 

[aspen]

Well that is the two commands Jesus said the whole law hinges on, but the first and foremost is to have Jesus as savior and then know His written Word.
Remember Jesus was speaking to Pharisees about the LAW of the OLD covenant. His mission was to usher in the NEW Covenant which took the place of the LAW by a personal covenant with each believer.

I do agree that having a relationship as your Savior is important and basic Bible knowledge can help encourage us and assist us in following Christ, but I believe people respond to love of God and neighbor first, which opens the door to further understanding. I do not think you can convince or argue some one in to the kingdom

 

[OzSpen]

The gospel is love God and neighbor.

That's an outgrowth of people who have accepted the Gospel and been born again.

The Gospel is: 'For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life' (John 3:16 ESV).

 

[StanJ]

I do agree that having a relationship as your Savior is important and basic Bible knowledge can help encourage us and assist us in following Christ, but I believe people respond to love of God and neighbor first, which opens the door to further understanding. I do not think you can convince or argue some one in to the kingdom

Maybe not, because it is God who draws people, but we are instructed to always be prepared to give a reason for the faith in us. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)

 

[Wormwood]

Oz,

Thanks for the book recommendations. I may have to look into that Wright book. It looks interesting.

My main reason for pursuing the PhD program here was its emphasis on Greek. To be honest, I wasn't really all that interested in the degree itself. I just enjoy the seminars, reading and was looking to take some more in-depth Greek courses. To me, they are kind of like going to conferences and offer me the opportunity to get away and immerse myself into some in-depth study with other like-minded people. But, who knows...maybe once this current hectic pace slows down, I might change my mind.

Thanks for the encouraging word about my kiddos. They are doing great. How are the defenses going?

In my estimation, the Gospel is the message of the coming Kingdom of God on earth.

“Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”” (Mark 1:14–15, ESV)

Now, of course, the means to enter that kingdom is through the sacrifice of Jesus. Yet, the good news is that the reign of God has come and that people who repent and submit to the lordship of Jesus are welcomed into that Kingdom.

The Gospel is not "love God and love your neighbor." People had been doing that for thousands of years. The "news" was that God's long awaited Kingdom that was going to set things right was coming, and Jesus was the Son of God who was ushering it in.

In any event, we don't have prophets or Apostles (in my estimation) today. So, yes, we need the Bible. It is the inspired Word of God and without it, or someone preaching it to us, we will not know the mysteries of God in Jesus Christ.