NT Greek

[StanJ]

In any event, we don't have prophets or Apostles (in my estimation) today. So, yes, we need the Bible. It is the inspired Word of God and without it, or someone preaching it to us, we will not know the mysteries of God in Jesus Christ.

Absolutely!

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

Thanks for the book recommendations. I may have to look into that Wright book. It looks interesting.

My main reason for pursuing the PhD program here was its emphasis on Greek. To be honest, I wasn't really all that interested in the degree itself. I just enjoy the seminars, reading and was looking to take some more in-depth Greek courses. To me, they are kind of like going to conferences and offer me the opportunity to get away and immerse myself into some in-depth study with other like-minded people. But, who knows...maybe once this current hectic pace slows down, I might change my mind.

Thanks for the encouraging word about my kiddos. They are doing great. How are the defenses going?

In my estimation, the Gospel is the message of the coming Kingdom of God on earth.

“Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”” (Mark 1:14–15, ESV)

Now, of course, the means to enter that kingdom is through the sacrifice of Jesus. Yet, the good news is that the reign of God has come and that people who repent and submit to the lordship of Jesus are welcomed into that Kingdom.

The Gospel is not "love God and love your neighbor." People had been doing that for thousands of years. The "news" was that God's long awaited Kingdom that was going to set things right was coming, and Jesus was the Son of God who was ushering it in.

In any event, we don't have prophets or Apostles (in my estimation) today. So, yes, we need the Bible. It is the inspired Word of God and without it, or someone preaching it to us, we will not know the mysteries of God in Jesus Christ.

Wormwood,

I defend my thesis on 29 June on Skype. I speak to my supervisor about it this Wed.

As for no prophets today, I'm not convinced of that theology as Paul taught the Ephesians, 'And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ (Eph 4:11-12 ESV). Until Jesus returns, we need the saints to be equipped for ministry to build up the body of Christ. This passage from Ephesians confirms that apostle and prophets are still needed for that purpose.

However, the prophet who prophesies (see 1 Cor 12-14) does not have the same role as OT prophets. Wayne Grudem, a leading evangelical scholar, has written what I consider to be a definitive defense of the need for continuing prophecy in his book, The Gift of Prophecy: In the New Testament and Today. I have the British edition published from 1988 by Eastbourne: Kingsway Publications. J I Packer recommends the book in my edition, 'Careful, thorough, wise and to my mind convincing'. Grudem defines what the NT prophets at Corinth were doing. They were 'speaking merely human words to report something God brings to mind' (Grudem 1988:67). He explains that this 'revelation' through prophecy has the authority of merely human words, as one would accord with a sermon or advice by a mature Christian. 'These should by no means be ignored, but neither should they be thought to have authority equal to Scripture itself in our lives' (Grudem 1988:82). A USA edition of the publication was updated in 2000 and made available through Crossway Books.

In this YouTube link, Wayne Grudem gives some examples of the continuing gift of prophecy in his own life and with others.

Now that might put the cat amongst the theological pigeons, but I share it because I'm not convinced NT prophecy has ceased. Authoritative God-breathed prophecy to form Scripture HAS ceased. I consider Grudem has made many sound arguments in defense of continuing prophecy.

Oz

 

[Wormwood]

Oz,

Thanks for your reply. I like Grudem very much and think he is a wonderful scholar. I have read his stuff on prophecy today, but I think he is in error in his definitions of these roles. According to Grudem, the OT Prophets are similar to NT Apostles (which he thinks have ceased). However, he implies that the NT prophet is a different and lesser role. I just think this definition is quite problematic. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that the NT prophet is lesser than an OT prophet or that a NT Apostle is the equivalent of an OT prophet. I have written a post on this topic if you, or anyone else, would like to discuss it in fuller detail so we don't derail this thread. You can find it here.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

Thanks for your reply. I like Grudem very much and think he is a wonderful scholar. I have read his stuff on prophecy today, but I think he is in error in his definitions of these roles. According to Grudem, the OT Prophets are similar to NT Apostles (which he thinks have ceased). However, he implies that the NT prophet is a different and lesser role. I just think this definition is quite problematic. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that the NT prophet is lesser than an OT prophet or that a NT Apostle is the equivalent of an OT prophet. I have written a post on this topic if you, or anyone else, would like to discuss it in fuller detail so we don't derail this thread. You can find it here.

Wormwood,

Thanks for your response.

I Cor 14:5 (ESV) states: 'Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up'. This seems to be saying that prophecy is the equivalent of tongues + interpretation and its purpose is to build up the church, i.e. bring edification to the church.

1 Cor 14:23-25 (ESV) states:

If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

So this prophecy brings conviction to the outsiders who come to the gathering and they are convicted (by the content of the prophecies), called to account, and the secrets of their hearts are disclosed or revealed. This leads to worship of God. I think that these kinds of verses lend strength to Grudem's argument that prophecy is a revealed word for the moment, spoken in human language that the Holy Spirit brings to mind. It is from God but spoken in human words to cause people to worship God.

I consider that we have lost a great deal when the church gathers with the exclusion of prophecy and tongues + interpretation. The apokalupsis (revelation) that comes through such gifts - human words and not Scripture - are critical in reaching unbelievers who may come to our gatherings.

In Christ,
Oz

 

[Wormwood]

Oz,

Thanks for your reply. As I look at the NT, I do not see the gift of tongues or other such gifts occurring primarily because they are expected and promoted. It seems that all who received the gift of tongues had it come upon them quite unexpectantly. Thus, the idea that some churches do not have this gift simply because they "exclude" it seems inaccurate. Those in the upper room and Cornelius' household did not need any coaching to receive the gift. Also, I find it quite reasonable that the "prophecy" to which Paul refers could be divine insight into revealed material we now possess in our New Testaments (that they didn't have access to). When the Word of God is preached, I think the same conviction comes upon our hearers today. In fact, Paul speaks about this conviction a the preaching of the Gospel in places like 1 Thess. 1:4. Finally, the fact that Paul desired more people to prophesy does not mean 1) he expected everyone could be a prophet if they just were open to it as clearly he didn't think all would have this gift (1 Cor. 12:29-30, as you know the Greek implies a negative answer), and 2) that he defines prophesy as someone being open to gut feelings or inner hunches that one should proclaim to be potential words from God. Again, no where in the Bible do we read of prophecies being delivered in this manner. Rather, they all seem to come by dreams, visions or audible voices from God. Those who prophesy from their imaginations are strongly rebuked and condemned in the OT. I see nothing that would indicate such expectations have changed in the NT.

Anyway, I do not wish to derail this thread (which is supposed to be on NT Greek). I would like to explore this topic further, but we should do it on the thread I created so this one can focus on its topic. Have a blessed day, brother!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Stan,

A T Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament is a marvellous resource for those who want some Greek exegetical skills for the NT. It's available online with BibleStudyTools.com. Sadly, BibleStudyTools has fiddled with some of the biblical references from the original by Robertson (I have it in hard copy) and have come up with the occasional wrong verse. I've been in online discussion with them about this in dealing with one verse in the Book of Acts. Nevertheless, it's a terrific resource and available free online.

Whenever we use it we need to give credit for were we obtained it.

Oz

A T Robertson

“There is nothing like the Greek New Testament to rejuvenate the world, which came out of the Dark Ages with the Greek Testament in its hands.”

 

[OzSpen]

A T Robertson

“There is nothing like the Greek New Testament to rejuvenate the world, which came out of the Dark Ages with the Greek Testament in its hands.”

That's a massive grammar of over 1,000 pages from Robertson. I have a hard copy. However, I do wish people on Christian forums, who want to quote NT Greek and go no further than Strong's Concordance, would take a few courses in Greek so that they understand the nuances of Greek grammar. I have a bachelor's degree in NT Greek and a PhD in NT, which required a thorough understanding of Greek.

A T Robertson was a prince of biblical Greek scholars, but reading his large grammar is like climbing Mt Everest of NT Greek. However, I use it primarily as a resource. It's beyond my bedtime story. I leave that to reading Rod Laver's and Johnny Cash's biographies.

Oz