'NT Texts with regard to the 'three days and three nights' of Jesus' Last Passover'

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GerhardEbersoehn

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zeke25 said:
Gerhard,

A day begins at sunrise. It hasn't gone any where. Saturday night precedes Sunday sunrise. The women were going to the tomb on Saturday night and they arrived on Saturday night, not on Sunday morning.

In your upsidedown world, the women would be arriving at the tomb on Sunday night, prior to Sunday morning.

zeke25
You should, but you do not differentiate between <Saturday> and "Sabbath" and <Sunday> and "the First Day of the week".

<Saturday> and <Sunday> are pagan, 'Roman' days reckoned from midnight to midnight and are NOWHERE found in the Scriptures.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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zeke25 said:
Gerhard,

Why would I want to read a whole book of several hundred pages by Ebersohn? I’ve picked out a couple of sentences from two different pages. They are replete with errors.

From page 25 he is talking about Mt. 28:1. It does not say “In the end of the Sabbath” like he makes such a big to do over. It says, “After the Sabbaths”, it is plural not singular. He is following in the footsteps of the errant scholars who try to make a plural into a singular.

Then he says the next phrase in Mt. 28:1 is “as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week.” Once again, this is not what the Scripture says. It says, “dawning into the first of the Sabbaths”. Why has he done this? Once again he is following in the footsteps of those scholars who don’t know what “dawning into the first of the Sabbaths” means. And they have no excuse for not knowing. This Scripture is packed with information that is not just ignored by most scholars, but it is purposefully omitted from the pages of Scripture.

So, after he has murdered the Scripture, then he comes up with all kinds of erroneous conclusions about it. Go figure.

Then on page 266 he misrepresents what John has written in his gospel. John’s gospel does not conflict with the synoptic gospels at all.

Pick a page in his book, any page. I’m sure it is equally filled with such dribble.

Strangely enough you will read a whole book of hundreds of pages of heresy, but you will not even read a couple of pages of my suggestion about “A Day Begins At Sunrise”. Unless you want to get serious, don’t expect much serious response from me.


zeke25

[SIZE=16pt]I gave the webpage to be opened on the first 4 pages for the purpose here. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I’ll give it again, please read the first four pages when you open the webpage on internet. For now. http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book%202.%20Resurrection.pdf [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Time’s course[/SIZE]
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Zeke 25:

This is the only way to begin to recalculate when Christ was crucified and resurrected.

He was arrested Wednesday night, after the Last Supper. Crucified on Thursday. Risen from the dead on Saturday night, prior to Sunday sunrise. Meanwhile, the Jews celebrated their now and newly blasphemous passover on Friday.

But none of this will make any sense unless a day start is one of the tools you use to calculate how to get there. Another tool is understanding that "evening/even" in the Bible is the time of day from noon to sunset. See the thread "Twilight versus Between the Evenings" or the older post of "Between the Evenings" which you opposed last year.

zeke25


GE:

True:
[SIZE=16pt]<<<[/SIZE]He was arrested Wednesday night, after the Last Supper. Crucified on Thursday.[SIZE=16pt]>>>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Wrong:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]<<<……[/SIZE]Risen from the dead on Saturday night, prior to Sunday sunrise.>>>

Indeed, <<Risen>>, yes, ---not “RAISED”!

Because:
“In the end of the Sabbath / Late on the Sabbath as it (the Sabbath) began to dawn towards the First Day of the week … the angel of the Lord … cast the stone from the door of the sepulchre.”

Therefore, <<<understanding that "evening/even" in the Bible is the time of day from noon to sunset>>> is completely irrational and factually baseless.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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[SIZE=16pt]Matthew 28:1 Greek translations[/SIZE]

http://biblehub.com/goc/matthew/28.htm
[SIZE=5.5pt]1http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-1.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων, ἦλθε Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαρία θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον.[/SIZE] [SIZE=5.5pt]2http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-2.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]καὶ ἰδοὺ σεισμὸς ἐγένετο μέγας· ἄγγελος γὰρ Κυρίου καταβὰς ἐξ οὐρανοῦ προσελθὼν ἀπεκύλισε τὸν λίθον ἀπὸ τῆς θύρας καὶ ἐκάθητο ἐπάνω αὐτοῦ.[/SIZE] [SIZE=5.5pt]3http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-3.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]ἦν δὲ ἡ ἰδέα αὐτοῦ ὡς ἀστραπὴ καὶ τὸ ἔνδυμα αὐτοῦ λευκὸν ὡσεὶ χιών.[/SIZE] [SIZE=5.5pt]4http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-4.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]ἀπὸ δὲ τοῦ φόβου αὐτοῦ ἐσείσθησαν οἱ τηροῦντες καὶ ἐγένοντο ὡσεὶ νεκροί.[/SIZE] [SIZE=5.5pt]5http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-5.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ ἄγγελος εἶπε ταῖς γυναιξί·[/SIZE]


[SIZE=16pt]1http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-1.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]‘opse de sabbatohn tehi epiphohskousehi eis Mian sabbatohn’:-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]KJV 1611, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]“In the end of the Sabbath as it (the end of the Sabbath) began to dawn towards the First Day of the week….”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Literal:[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] “In Sabbath’s fullness being-in- the mid-inclining-day-light towards the First Day of the week”, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘opse sabbatohn’, “Sabbath’s fullness-of-day” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘tehi’, “in the” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘epi’, “mid-inclining” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘phohs’, “day-light”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘ous-ehi’, “being(shining)” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘eis’, “beginning to dawn towards / against / before / unto”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘Mian (hehmeran) sabbatohn’, “the First Day of the week”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Αφού δε επέρασε το σάββατον, περί τα χαράγματα της πρώτης[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]ημέρας της εβδομάδος ήλθε Μαρία η Μαγδαληνή και η άλλη[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Μαρία, διά να θεωρήσωσι τον τάφον. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Μετάφραση Νεόφυτου Βάμβα. Greek: N. Vamvas (Bambas) New[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Testament. [published after 1924][/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] ‘Αφού’ (‘aphíehmi’), ‘to let go’, ‘to let pass’; ‘aphosioûsthai tohi[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]theohi’, ‘time to make expiatory offerings to a god’. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘επέρασε’ from ‘perisseúoh’, ‘surplus’, ‘excess’, ‘residue’; ‘ta[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]peritteúonta’, ‘what remains over’.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘peri’, ‘the latter’, ‘about’.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘το σάββατον’ Nominative Subject, ‘the Sabbath (Seventh Day) of[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]the week’.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘τα χαράγματα’ from ‘to cháragma’, ‘palisade’, ‘mark’, ‘trench’.
‘της πρώτης ημέρας’, ‘of the First Day’
‘της εβδομάδος’ for ‘sabbátohn’, ‘of the week’.
Thus… [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]“The Seventh Day of the week the latter outgoing remaining[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]time at the marking (dawn) of the First Day of the week.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Καὶ ἤγγισεν εἰς τὴν μίαν σαββάτων οὗ ἐπορεύετο / ἐπορεύθ[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]η [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]τὸ[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] σάββατον[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] [[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]GE][/SIZE]
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Luke 22:7 (HCSB)
7 Then the Day of Unleavened Bread came when the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.

is wrong!

The word 'bread' is not in the Text

[SIZE=16pt]Luke 22:7[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Ἦλθε δὲ ἡ ἡμέρα τῶν ἀζύμων, ἐν ᾗ ἔδει θύεσθαι τὸ πάσχα,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Mark 22:12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Καὶ τῇ πρώτῃ ἡμέρᾳ τῶν ἀζύμων, ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον, λέγουσιν[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Matthew 26:17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Τῇ δὲ πρώτῃ τῶν ἀζύμων[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]John 13:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Πρὸ δὲ τῆς ἑορτῆς τοῦ πάσχα[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]‘[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]ἡμέρα τῶν ἀζύμων’[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] literally reads, “And came The Day-TheWithout-Yeast/-Leaven when the passover (sacrifice) must be killed.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The KJV has ‘Feast’ added as well, illegitimately. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]John is correct, “(It was the day) BEFORE THE FEAST (Day) of passover”. It was no longer the thirteenth day of the First Month because the fourteenth had started and had been beginning with the “evening” mentioned in Mark 14:17, Matthew 26:20 and Luke 22:14 and “night” mentioned in John 13:30.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The same day of the sacrifice the fourteenth, continued next “morning” in John 19:14, 28 Mark 15:1 Matthew 27:1 and Luke 22:66.[/SIZE]

. . . without a hitch in just about all ‘authorized’ versions / translations.
 

zeke25

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GerhardEbersoehn said:
You should, but you do not differentiate between <Saturday> and "Sabbath" and <Sunday> and "the First Day of the week".

<Saturday> and <Sunday> are pagan, 'Roman' days reckoned from midnight to midnight and are NOWHERE found in the Scriptures.
When I use Saturday and Sunday, etc. I'm not giving any credit to pagan gods. I'm merely making it easier to talk about the days of a week in our modern times. If I start saying the 1st day of the week, the 2nd day of the week, etc. rather than saying Sunday or Monday I may not be any more accurate. After all, do you have any Biblically supported knowledge about what the names of the days of the weeks were in the beginning? No, you don't, because the Bible doesn't tell us. I suspect that the days of a week were not named in the beginning of creation and all the way through the Bible. The days of a month were always numbered, and those that understood the original calendar knew which days of the month applied to the days of a week. For example, after the sabbath was begun, they always landed on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of every month, all year long. In fact, they still do, but few use the correct calendar any more.


zeke25
 

zeke25

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GerhardEbersoehn said:
Re:
<<<understanding certain doctrines, particularly 3D/3N and crucifixion week. Without an understand of "time markers" one is defeated before they begin when studying this subject.>>>

Keen and accurate observation!

One such <<time marker>> is the day-cycle.

The key <<time marker>> though, is understanding the time-LOGIC about the Crucifixion.

The only thing I myself cannot understand about the Crucifixion as concerns its <<time markers>>, is the mind of most Christians how it, is supposed to work while they read Deuteronomy 21:23, because what, is unclear about it when it reads, "If a man be put to death and thou hang him on a tree: his body shall NOT REMAIN ALL NIGHT on the tree but thou shalt by all means BURY HIM THAT DAY" ?!

What is so difficult to understand that: "If a man be put to death and thou hang him on a tree (in that day): his body shall NOT REMAIN (hanging) _ALL NIGHT_ (after) on the tree; but thou shalt by all means BURY HIM THAT DAY" ---which together with ITS "night" before it, would have been "THAT DAY" still?

The key <<time marker>> though, is understanding the time-LOGIC about the Crucifixion viz., that TWO days are involved: the first day they KILLED the man; and the NEXT day which started with its night THROUGH WHICH the man’s body was NOT to remain hanging but IN WHICH night it had to be taken down and “THAT SAME WHOLE-DAY-OF-SUBSTANCE” in its very DAYLIGHT following, had to be BURIED.


The key <<time marker>> therefore of Jesus’ Crucifixion which NO ONE seems to have noticed ever, is, that He was Crucified on the fourteenth day but was BURIED on the fifteenth the NEXT day! --- NOT the same day He was Crucified before sunset as is generally believed.

THIS IS THE ‘SUBSTANCE’ of Jesus’ BURIAL DAY universally denied.
Gerhard,

He was NOT crucified on the 14th (a Friday), He was crucified on the 13th (a Thursday). He was taken down after sundown on the 13th and buried that night prior to sunrise the 14th. You're using an invalid calendar too. You cannot use the current Rabbinic Judaism calendar and back it up in time to crucifixion week, it fits like a square peg in a round hole. The Rabbinic Judaism calendar did not exist in all Biblical times.

Mark 15:42-43 KJV, "42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of [Yahoshua]." This Scripture explains that Yahoshua was crucified on the preparation day, not on Passover, which was the last preparation day before the upcoming Passover. One of the time markers in this passage is "even". This means that Thursday day was behind them and now is was after sundown and it was now Thursday night. Another time marker is "the day before the sabbath". The sabbath of Passover will begin when the sun rises tomorrow morning.

Since that day, Thursday Abib 13 began at sunrise it ended at the end of the last second prior to sunrise on Friday Abib 14. So, Dt. 21:23 was followed to the letter. He did not remain all night on the tree, rather He was buried on the same day He was crucified, which is Thursday Abib 13 after sundown. You’re snagged again because you do not understand the Scriptures teach a sunrise day start.

You’re not doing real well with a two way conversation here. You think you have all the answers and you’re causing confusion instead. Take the challenge, show me a Scripture, any verse that shows a sundown day start. You won’t find one.


If you cannot respond, then my boredom with you may increase to the point that I’ll fall asleep and not come back.

zeke25
 

zeke25

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GerhardEbersoehn said:
[SIZE=16pt]I gave the webpage to be opened on the first 4 pages for the purpose here. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I’ll give it again, please read the first four pages when you open the webpage on internet. For now. http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book%202.%20Resurrection.pdf [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Time’s course[/SIZE]
Gerhard,

Okay I went there. This is the first thing written: [SIZE=13pt]Preparation of Passover [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]First Day Without Leaven 14th Nisan[/SIZE]




[SIZE=10pt]Thursday. This is a gross error. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The last day of preparation for Passover is not Nisan 14, it is Nisan 13. Nisan 13 is Thursday, Nisan 14 is Friday Passover. (Don't think I didn't notice that your author used a pagan name to describe a day of the week. Did you write and tell him he shouldn't do that?) The first day without leaven is Friday Abib 14, and that only begins after sundown when the Passover Feast can be eaten. Prior to that, people can eat leaven all day long if they want during the day light hours of Abib 14, even during the Passover sacrifice.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]So, as I said before, I'm not going to waste my time with an author that hasn't a clue what he is talking about. And that was only his very first statement. What about #2, #3, #1000? Good grief. Throw that book in the trash.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]zeke25[/SIZE]
 

zeke25

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GerhardEbersoehn said:
Zeke 25:

This is the only way to begin to recalculate when Christ was crucified and resurrected.

He was arrested Wednesday night, after the Last Supper. Crucified on Thursday. Risen from the dead on Saturday night, prior to Sunday sunrise. Meanwhile, the Jews celebrated their now and newly blasphemous passover on Friday.

But none of this will make any sense unless a day start is one of the tools you use to calculate how to get there. Another tool is understanding that "evening/even" in the Bible is the time of day from noon to sunset. See the thread "Twilight versus Between the Evenings" or the older post of "Between the Evenings" which you opposed last year.

zeke25


GE:

True:
[SIZE=16pt]<<<[/SIZE]He was arrested Wednesday night, after the Last Supper. Crucified on Thursday.[SIZE=16pt]>>>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Wrong:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]<<<……[/SIZE]Risen from the dead on Saturday night, prior to Sunday sunrise.>>>

Indeed, <<Risen>>, yes, ---not “RAISED”!

Because:
“In the end of the Sabbath / Late on the Sabbath as it (the Sabbath) began to dawn towards the First Day of the week … the angel of the Lord … cast the stone from the door of the sepulchre.”

Therefore, <<<understanding that "evening/even" in the Bible is the time of day from noon to sunset>>> is completely irrational and factually baseless.
Gerhard,

Since raised and risen or whatever bothers you, let's call it "rose from the dead". This is truly straining out a gnat but swallowing a camel.

As far as evening/even, you obviously haven't even read the thread. Go, find a Scripture you disagree with and challenge it with a better Scripture. What I do here is normally defend and challenge using the Scriptures, not my personal opinion. Your personal opinion of "completely irrational and factually baseless"is meaningless. Where is your Scripture to support this reckless opinion of yours?

zeke25
 

zeke25

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GerhardEbersoehn said:
[SIZE=16pt]Matthew 28:1 Greek translations[/SIZE]

http://biblehub.com/goc/matthew/28.htm
[SIZE=5.5pt]1http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-1.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων, ἦλθε Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαρία θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον.[/SIZE] [SIZE=5.5pt]2http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-2.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]καὶ ἰδοὺ σεισμὸς ἐγένετο μέγας· ἄγγελος γὰρ Κυρίου καταβὰς ἐξ οὐρανοῦ προσελθὼν ἀπεκύλισε τὸν λίθον ἀπὸ τῆς θύρας καὶ ἐκάθητο ἐπάνω αὐτοῦ.[/SIZE] [SIZE=5.5pt]3http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-3.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]ἦν δὲ ἡ ἰδέα αὐτοῦ ὡς ἀστραπὴ καὶ τὸ ἔνδυμα αὐτοῦ λευκὸν ὡσεὶ χιών.[/SIZE] [SIZE=5.5pt]4http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-4.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]ἀπὸ δὲ τοῦ φόβου αὐτοῦ ἐσείσθησαν οἱ τηροῦντες καὶ ἐγένοντο ὡσεὶ νεκροί.[/SIZE] [SIZE=5.5pt]5http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-5.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ ἄγγελος εἶπε ταῖς γυναιξί·[/SIZE]


[SIZE=16pt]1http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/28-1.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]‘opse de sabbatohn tehi epiphohskousehi eis Mian sabbatohn’:-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]KJV 1611, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]“In the end of the Sabbath as it (the end of the Sabbath) began to dawn towards the First Day of the week….”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Literal:[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] “In Sabbath’s fullness being-in- the mid-inclining-day-light towards the First Day of the week”, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘opse sabbatohn’, “Sabbath’s fullness-of-day” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘tehi’, “in the” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘epi’, “mid-inclining” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘phohs’, “day-light”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘ous-ehi’, “being(shining)” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘eis’, “beginning to dawn towards / against / before / unto”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘Mian (hehmeran) sabbatohn’, “the First Day of the week”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Αφού δε επέρασε το σάββατον, περί τα χαράγματα της πρώτης[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]ημέρας της εβδομάδος ήλθε Μαρία η Μαγδαληνή και η άλλη[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Μαρία, διά να θεωρήσωσι τον τάφον. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Μετάφραση Νεόφυτου Βάμβα. Greek: N. Vamvas (Bambas) New[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Testament. [published after 1924][/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] ‘Αφού’ (‘aphíehmi’), ‘to let go’, ‘to let pass’; ‘aphosioûsthai tohi[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]theohi’, ‘time to make expiatory offerings to a god’. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘επέρασε’ from ‘perisseúoh’, ‘surplus’, ‘excess’, ‘residue’; ‘ta[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]peritteúonta’, ‘what remains over’.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘peri’, ‘the latter’, ‘about’.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘το σάββατον’ Nominative Subject, ‘the Sabbath (Seventh Day) of[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]the week’.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]‘τα χαράγματα’ from ‘to cháragma’, ‘palisade’, ‘mark’, ‘trench’.
‘της πρώτης ημέρας’, ‘of the First Day’
‘της εβδομάδος’ for ‘sabbátohn’, ‘of the week’.
Thus… [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]“The Seventh Day of the week the latter outgoing remaining[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]time at the marking (dawn) of the First Day of the week.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Καὶ ἤγγισεν εἰς τὴν μίαν σαββάτων οὗ ἐπορεύετο / ἐπορεύθ[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]η [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]τὸ[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] σάββατον[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] [[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]GE][/SIZE]
Gerhard,

As far as Mt 28:1 is concerned (seems to me I already answered this somewhere), the only thing you have correct is "Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων".

[SIZE=16pt]KJV 1611, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]“In the end of the Sabbath as it (the end of the Sabbath) began to dawn towards the First Day of the week….”. This is a corrupt translation. The KJ translators missed it on this verse.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Literal:[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] “In Sabbath’s fullness being-in- the mid-inclining-day-light towards the First Day of the week”, This is a corrupt translation also. The words "First Day of the week" are not there at all. They are totally made up. Go back to the Greek that has it correct. Do you see "First Day of the week" there? No, of course not, because it is not there.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]It says, "at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths". This packs a whole lot more information and meaning in Mt 28:1 than "first day of the week". The problem being, neither you or the translators apparently have a clue what "first of the sabbaths" means, and even worst they don't care since they omitted it from their translation. I could tell you what it means, but then that would be a waste of my time until and unless you would like to learn something. So far, I have seen that attribute.[/SIZE]

zeke25
 

zeke25

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GerhardEbersoehn said:
Luke 22:7 (HCSB)
7 Then the Day of Unleavened Bread came when the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.

is wrong!

The word 'bread' is not in the Text

[SIZE=16pt]Luke 22:7[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Ἦλθε δὲ ἡ ἡμέρα τῶν ἀζύμων, ἐν ᾗ ἔδει θύεσθαι τὸ πάσχα,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Mark 22:12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Καὶ τῇ πρώτῃ ἡμέρᾳ τῶν ἀζύμων, ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον, λέγουσιν[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Matthew 26:17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Τῇ δὲ πρώτῃ τῶν ἀζύμων[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]John 13:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Πρὸ δὲ τῆς ἑορτῆς τοῦ πάσχα[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]‘[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]ἡμέρα τῶν ἀζύμων’[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] literally reads, “And came The Day-TheWithout-Yeast/-Leaven when the passover (sacrifice) must be killed.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The KJV has ‘Feast’ added as well, illegitimately. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]John is correct, “(It was the day) BEFORE THE FEAST (Day) of passover”. It was no longer the thirteenth day of the First Month because the fourteenth had started and had been beginning with the “evening” mentioned in Mark 14:17, Matthew 26:20 and Luke 22:14 and “night” mentioned in John 13:30.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The same day of the sacrifice the fourteenth, continued next “morning” in John 19:14, 28 Mark 15:1 Matthew 27:1 and Luke 22:66.[/SIZE]

. . . without a hitch in just about all ‘authorized’ versions / translations.
Gerhard,

I'm not sure what all this means to you. Maybe you've been reading my stuff and you massage it a little thinking that will mask it.

Anyway my Bible doesn't have a 22nd chapter in Mark, possible you meant Mk 14:12.

And who cares with Mark, Luke, and John have "bread" added. It doesn't change the meaning of the text and my Bible has them in italics to show that "bread" is not in the Textus Receptus.

Mt. 26:17 is a different case, because the translators have caused this verse to contradict itself.

In any event, your surmise of these Scriptures is inaccurate. These Scriptures show that the Last Supper was Wednesday Abib 12 with the Passover still 2 days in the future. I could explain all of this to you as well. Let me know by addressing my other challenge about a day start and that might motivate me to explain it. Otherwise, I know that you're not here to learn, only to brag about that which you think you know so much about. And all my typing and explaining will fall on deaf ears.

zeke25
 

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Bibliocentrist said:
Zeke/Rick may be right. But at this stage it is too difficult to tell without me having the time and health and resources to be able to study all the bible verses and other resources (calendars/holidays). This always annoys me about God/bible/Christianity: I'm afraid i find it hard to like/love/believe a God that purposely made the bible so darn non-simple/non-clear. (Don't blame the "cults"/Devil, etc, God wrote it.) (Certainly i have a bit of wounded pride/ego/outer-defenses at times like this when i am wrong/dumb/bad, but it is not just all my fault.) People always complain that my posts/articles/writing are hard to read, yet it always seems to me that others are so very long and massive-effort. I quit, I am too/extremely angry. God won't let me do my studies.
Bibliocentrist,

I'm not ignoring you. I did address your concerns in another thread. Hang in there. God has answers for you.

zeke25
 

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GerhardEbersoehn said:
Re:
<<<understanding certain doctrines, particularly 3D/3N and crucifixion week. Without an understand of "time markers" one is defeated before they begin when studying this subject.>>>

Keen and accurate observation!

One such <<time marker>> is the day-cycle.

The key <<time marker>> though, is understanding the time-LOGIC about the Crucifixion.

The only thing I myself cannot understand about the Crucifixion as concerns its <<time markers>>, is the mind of most Christians how it, is supposed to work while they read Deuteronomy 21:23, because what, is unclear about it when it reads, "If a man be put to death and thou hang him on a tree: his body shall NOT REMAIN ALL NIGHT on the tree but thou shalt by all means BURY HIM THAT DAY" ?!

What is so difficult to understand that: "If a man be put to death and thou hang him on a tree (in that day): his body shall NOT REMAIN (hanging) _ALL NIGHT_ (after) on the tree; but thou shalt by all means BURY HIM THAT DAY" ---which together with ITS "night" before it, would have been "THAT DAY" still?

The key <<time marker>> though, is understanding the time-LOGIC about the Crucifixion viz., that TWO days are involved: the first day they KILLED the man; and the NEXT day which started with its night THROUGH WHICH the man’s body was NOT to remain hanging but IN WHICH night it had to be taken down and “THAT SAME WHOLE-DAY-OF-SUBSTANCE” in its very DAYLIGHT following, had to be BURIED.


The key <<time marker>> therefore of Jesus’ Crucifixion which NO ONE seems to have noticed ever, is, that He was Crucified on the fourteenth day but was BURIED on the fifteenth the NEXT day! --- NOT the same day He was Crucified before sunset as is generally believed.

THIS IS THE ‘SUBSTANCE’ of Jesus’ BURIAL DAY universally denied.
Gerhard,

There is no "time logic" about the crucifixion. It is what it is. Here is an excerpt from one of my teachings that gives a little more information about time markers. Since I'm the one who has coined the phrase, and no one else uses it, then it might be wise to go with it. Oh, there might be one or two people out there that have actually said the phrase "time marker" but their time markers have nothing to do with what I'm talking about, nor do they have any logic in what they are saying. Sort of like "time logic". Ugh!

TIME MARKERS

4.a. Time markers in the Scriptures are extremely important in discerning the chronology of events during crucifixion week. What do I mean by time markers? Any number, word, or phrase that lets the reader know the time of day or the day of the month is a time marker. For example, the word even or evening is a time marker. In the Bible the word even/evening has four possible meanings and none of those meanings are the same as our current understanding of the word.

4.b. The word afternoon does not exist in the Bible. The Bible teaches that the time between high noon and sundown is the even or evening time of day. So, a biblical day has only three parts to it: morning, evening, and night. In the phrase between the evenings there are two even/evenings. The Bible teaches that the first even is noon time and the second even is sundown. Sundown occurs when the last sliver of sun disappears below the western horizon; at this point evening is over and night has begun. For more information please ask for our teachings called A Day Begins At Sunrise and Between The Evenings.

4.c. There are other time markers in Scripture as well. And, knowing how to count days and hours is necessary. Please ask for our teaching called Counting Hours.

4.d. Recognizing the time relationship between Passover and the beginning of the count to the Feast of Weeks is important in understanding the sequence of events in crucifixion week. Passover is always Friday Abib 14, the Feast of Unleavened Bread always begins on Saturday Abib 15, and the beginning of the count of seven weeks to Shavuot and Pentecost is always Sunday Abib 16. Please ask for our teaching called Seven Perfect Weeks.

zeke25
 

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zeke25 said:
When I use Saturday and Sunday, etc. I'm not giving any credit to pagan gods. I'm merely making it easier to talk about the days of a week in our modern times. If I start saying the 1st day of the week, the 2nd day of the week, etc. rather than saying Sunday or Monday I may not be any more accurate. After all, do you have any Biblically supported knowledge about what the names of the days of the weeks were in the beginning? No, you don't, because the Bible doesn't tell us. I suspect that the days of a week were not named in the beginning of creation and all the way through the Bible. The days of a month were always numbered, and those that understood the original calendar knew which days of the month applied to the days of a week. For example, after the sabbath was begun, they always landed on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of every month, all year long. In fact, they still do, but few use the correct calendar any more.


zeke25
Simply each and every of the things you are asserting have always been the very opposite of accepted Christian belief and practice.

Re:
<<<Biblically supported knowledge about what the names of the days of the weeks were in the beginning?>>>

Yes! Genesis 1 supplies then uses the appellations for the first seven days of God’s creating. The number of each was the name of each, including the Seventh Day because it was “the day: The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD” <<in the beginning>> until and at the time of the giving of the Law unknown epochs after. The Bible in fact tells us. Their numbers were the names of <<<the days of a week … in the beginning of creation and all the way through the Bible.>>> No doubt ---there they are for everyone reading the Scriptures since thousand years BC to 100 and 2015 AD.

Re:
<<<The days of a month were always numbered, and those that understood the original calendar knew which days of the month applied to the days of a week.>>>
<<Those that understood>> … in the first century AD or 800 BC? Well, they, <understood> the first day of the First Month for the children of Israel the first 30 days after spring equinox could fall on and correspond with ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

That’s history and historical and astrological fact and reality to this day of today.

Re:
<<<The days of a month … always landed on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of every month, all year long . . . .>>>
Incorrect and UNTRUE. In fact, it’s sheer nonsensical wishful thinking of a few Jews who lived in the dark ages of Christianity who knew nor <understood> a thing about Christian truth except that they hated it more than anything.
 

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zeke25 said:
Gerhard,

There is no "time logic" about the crucifixion. It is what it is. Here is an excerpt from one of my teachings that gives a little more information about time markers. Since I'm the one who has coined the phrase, and no one else uses it, then it might be wise to go with it. Oh, there might be one or two people out there that have actually said the phrase "time marker" but their time markers have nothing to do with what I'm talking about, nor do they have any logic in what they are saying. Sort of like "time logic". Ugh!

TIME MARKERS

4.a. Time markers in the Scriptures are extremely important in discerning the chronology of events during crucifixion week. What do I mean by time markers? Any number, word, or phrase that lets the reader know the time of day or the day of the month is a time marker. For example, the word even or evening is a time marker. In the Bible the word even/evening has four possible meanings and none of those meanings are the same as our current understanding of the word.

4.b. The word afternoon does not exist in the Bible. The Bible teaches that the time between high noon and sundown is the even or evening time of day. So, a biblical day has only three parts to it: morning, evening, and night. In the phrase between the evenings there are two even/evenings. The Bible teaches that the first even is noon time and the second even is sundown. Sundown occurs when the last sliver of sun disappears below the western horizon; at this point evening is over and night has begun. For more information please ask for our teachings called A Day Begins At Sunrise and Between The Evenings.

4.c. There are other time markers in Scripture as well. And, knowing how to count days and hours is necessary. Please ask for our teaching called Counting Hours.

4.d. Recognizing the time relationship between Passover and the beginning of the count to the Feast of Weeks is important in understanding the sequence of events in crucifixion week. Passover is always Friday Abib 14, the Feast of Unleavened Bread always begins on Saturday Abib 15, and the beginning of the count of seven weeks to Shavuot and Pentecost is always Sunday Abib 16. Please ask for our teaching called Seven Perfect Weeks.

zeke25
Old news is no news nor good news.
 

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zeke25 said:
Gerhard,

I'm not sure what all this means to you. Maybe you've been reading my stuff and you massage it a little thinking that will mask it.

Anyway my Bible doesn't have a 22nd chapter in Mark, possible you meant Mk 14:12.

And who cares with Mark, Luke, and John have "bread" added. It doesn't change the meaning of the text and my Bible has them in italics to show that "bread" is not in the Textus Receptus.

Mt. 26:17 is a different case, because the translators have caused this verse to contradict itself.

In any event, your surmise of these Scriptures is inaccurate. These Scriptures show that the Last Supper was Wednesday Abib 12 with the Passover still 2 days in the future. I could explain all of this to you as well. Let me know by addressing my other challenge about a day start and that might motivate me to explain it. Otherwise, I know that you're not here to learn, only to brag about that which you think you know so much about. And all my typing and explaining will fall on deaf ears.

zeke25
GE:
I can explain everything you think you could explain to me, better than you can explain it for yourself. There is NOTHING about the WC theory I am not 100% informed on. It’s trash. Every wee bit of it. Legalist self justifying works righteousness all in all!
 

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For those who may be following this discussion: I have chosen to not respond any further with GerhardEbersoehn. There is no profit for the Body of Christ in doing so. He refuses to use Scripture to support his positions and when he does his exegesis is incorrect. Then when I use Scripture he ignores it and uses his own opinion as if that justifies everything he says. But it gets worse. If you go to the thread "A Day Begins At Sunrise", then you will see my other reason for discontinuing this discussion with him.
 

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zeke25 said:
For those who may be following this discussion: I have chosen to not respond any further with GerhardEbersoehn. There is no profit for the Body of Christ in doing so. He refuses to use Scripture to support his positions and when he does his exegesis is incorrect. Then when I use Scripture he ignores it and uses his own opinion as if that justifies everything he says. But it gets worse. If you go to the thread "A Day Begins At Sunrise", then you will see my other reason for discontinuing this discussion with him.
10 August 2015 ---three days later. Everybody seems to have stopped posting on this thread, leaving one question at least, unanswered: Have they stopped to <respond> to GE, or have they stopped to <respond> to zeke25? Or both?.
Funny, very funny ROFL!
 

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zeke25 said:
Gerhard,

As far as Mt 28:1 is concerned (seems to me I already answered this somewhere), the only thing you have correct is "Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων".

[SIZE=16pt]KJV 1611, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]“In the end of the Sabbath as it (the end of the Sabbath) began to dawn towards the First Day of the week….”. This is a corrupt translation. The KJ translators missed it on this verse.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Literal:[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] “In Sabbath’s fullness being-in- the mid-inclining-day-light towards the First Day of the week”, This is a corrupt translation also. The words "First Day of the week" are not there at all. They are totally made up. Go back to the Greek that has it correct. Do you see "First Day of the week" there? No, of course not, because it is not there.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]It says, "at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths". This packs a whole lot more information and meaning in Mt 28:1 than "first day of the week". The problem being, neither you or the translators apparently have a clue what "first of the sabbaths" means, and even worst they don't care since they omitted it from their translation. I could tell you what it means, but then that would be a waste of my time until and unless you would like to learn something. So far, I have seen that attribute.[/SIZE]

zeke25
Re:
<<<The words "First Day of the week" are not there at all.>>>

. . . says Zeke25. Against anyone and everyone with credentials.

Readers, make your choice!

Re:
<<<Do you see "First Day of the week" there? No, of course not, because it is not there.>>>

Zeke doesn't see 'Day' because he CANNOT see it; not <<because it is not there>>. Zeke just has not the knowledge or understanding of the Greek Idiom and Grammar or Syntax.

There is just this large vacuum in his outfit for such occasions. Which Zeke very much loves parading before his absent admirers.

Re:
<<<It says, "at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths". This packs a whole lot more information and meaning in Mt 28:1 than "first day of the week". The problem being, neither you or the translators apparently have a clue what "first of the sabbaths" means, and even worst they don't care since they omitted it from their translation. I could tell you what it means, but then that would be a waste of my time until and unless you would like to learn something. So far, I have seen that attribute.>>>

​A shriveled nut saturated with nonsense beyond all safety margins— the crown jewel in the Wednesday- and newbie’s' Tuesday crucifixion halo.

I know who don't <<<have a clue>>>; it is he who has no clue.

He even puts <<the first of the sabbaths>> following AFTER <the end of the sabbaths>. What imagination can accomplish!

Re:
<<<they (the translators) omitted it … "first of the sabbaths" … from their translation>>>

Surely they did because <<"first of the sabbaths">> surely <is not there>.

You, Zeke25, show it here in the Greek; I, GE, cordially invite you!
 

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NOT by me . . . but by . . .

Pentecost - "Sunday Or Sivan 6"?



An answer to a Sermon by Vance Stinson of the Church of God International

April 5, 1991, Vance Stinson of the Church of God, International gave a sermon entitled "Sunday Or Sivan 6," in which he attempted to refute the Sivan 6 date for this holy day of God. In this article, Nick Wood in England answers Stinson's arguments and draws attention to the REAL issues, as opposed to "smokescreen" arguments!

Nick Wood


The incredible revelation in the sermon of Vance Stinson entitled "Sunday Or Sivan 6" is the almost complete acknowledgement that the vast majority of the Jews at the time of Christ, were keeping Pentecost on Sivan 6 according to the Pharisees reckoning. This is at least a step in the direction of TRUTH. The whole issue then hinges on the question -- "Where the Pharisees correct in their reckoning?"

Vance makes much in his sermon of the following point: -- "If all there was to go on in determining Pentecost was Leviticus 23, then we would all be forced to conclude that Pentecost was on a Sunday."

Very well, let us try and be fair and reasonable as well as open-minded and acknowledge that this may be so with one important qualification. If all there was to go on in determining Pentecost was Leviticus 23 in the KING JAMES version, then yes, I can see how Sunday is arrived at, and of course I myself accepted this teaching without question for many years, I freely admit.

To make the statement, as Vance does, that the Hebrew word "SHABBAT" can only ever be translated "Sabbath" and never "Week," is entirely a matter of opinion which many eminent Hebrew scholars have argued for generations. The fact is of course that besides the King James version we have many other translations of the Bible into English. Some of these in Leviticus 23:15-16 translate "SHABBAT" as "Sabbaths" (ie., New King James), while others translate "SHABBAT" as "Weeks" (ie., NIV, RSV, GNB as well as the Jewish Tanakh). To simply say that all these modern translations are wrong and leave it at that WITHOUT CONCLUSIVE PROOF is just not good enough. Of course Vance is perfectly entitled to HIS OWN OPINION just like anyone else, but with all due respect to him, I for one am just not prepared to take another man's opinion on such an important issue.

What does all this haggling and disputing over the Hebrew word "SHABBAT" really prove anyway? Absolutely nothing, except that there is a continuing dispute and always has been over the exact meaning of this Hebrew word. Let us all calm down and step back a moment and remember Paul's warning in II Timothy 2:14 (New International Version): --

"Warn them before God against quarrelling about WORDS; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."

Sound advice, so let us all pay heed to it and get away from this useless dispute. Besides, why do we just have to concentrate on Leviticus 23? The first rule of Bible study is to get together ALL the Scriptures bearing on a particular subject.

". . . Here a little, there a little" (Isaiah 28:10, NKJV). By applying this rule fairly and consistently we can come to a definite conclusion and a full understanding of the TRUE day of Pentecost.

Opponents of a Sivan 6 Pentecost find the inspired words of Scripture in Matthew 23:3 difficult to handle. They seek, as Vance does, to place their own human interpretation upon it, simply because it is so powerful and decisive a Scripture regarding this whole issue. They level the charge at Sivan 6 observers, of "following the Pharisees," seemingly oblivious of the fact that it was Our Lord And Saviour JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF who uttered these words: --

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. ALL therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works, for they say and do not" (Matt.23:3).

Instead of trying to bend and distort this verse and PRETEND that it doesn't really mean what it plainly says, let us all be honest with the Word of God and accept and believe it, even if we sometimes don't like to admit that maybe, JUST MAYBE, our preconceived ideas may be wrong. A very plain and simple expounding of this verse can be found in the Jamieson, Fausett and Brown Commentary: --

"THE SCRIBES AND THE PHARISEES SIT" -- The Jewish teachers stood to read, but sat to expound the Scriptures, as will be seen by comparing Luke 4:16 with v.20.

"IN MOSES' SEAT" -- ie. as interpreters of the law given by Moses.

"ALL THEREFORE" -- ie. all which, as sitting in that seat and teaching out of that law.

"THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, THAT OBSERVE AND DO" -- The word 'therefore' is thus, it will be seen, of great importance, as limiting those injunctions which He would have them obey to what they fetched FROM THE LAW ITSELF (emphasis mine) . . . . but He who denounced the TRADITIONS (emphasis mine) of such teachers cannot have meant here to throw His shield over these."

In other words, as long as the Pharisees were teaching and expounding from the LAW OF MOSES, which included the Holy Days (ie. PENTECOST), the people were to "OBSERVE AND DO" what the Pharisees taught.

SO SAYS THE UNBREAKABLE WORD OF GOD.

Of course anything above and beyond the LAW OF MOSES, was a teaching or tradition of men and OBVIOUSLY not covered by this COMMAND of JESUS CHRIST. Notice very carefully to whom this DIRECT COMMAND was given in Matthew 23:1 --
"THEN JESUS SPOKE TO THE MULTITUDES AND TO HIS DISCIPLES" (New King James Version).

Vance winds up his sermon with an ingenious interpretation of Acts 2:1 -- "When the day of Pentecost had FULLY COME . . ." He postulates that as there were TWO Pentecosts, one Sadducean and the other Pharisaic, then the phrase FULLY COME must mean -- "When the day of the True Pentecost had come a few days AFTER the False Pentecost." In the crucifixion year of 31 A.D. he correctly states that the Sadducean Pentecost would be on a Sunday (as it always was), and the Pharisaic Pentecost would come 2 days earlier on the Friday. Vance then takes a quantum leap and suggests that Pentecost had only FULLY COME on the Sunday. There is however a much better and clearer definition of that phrase's TRUE meaning, without resorting to speculation.



Strong's Exhaustive Concordance gives the Greek word -- SUMPLEROO rendered "FULLY COME" in the King James version as meaning: --

"To Implenish Completely,"
"To Accomplish,"
"To Be Complete."

A marginal note in the New American Standard version gives the literal meaning of the phrase as -- "Was Being Fulfilled."

This is surely the TRUE meaning of Acts 2:1 -- "When the day of Pentecost had FULLY COME (or HAD COME TO BE FULFILLED)."

Vance concludes by saying that he needs much more proof before he is willing to 'repent and change.' I am puzzled by this statement because the 37 page article which he continually referred to, [must have] contained just what he was asking for, MUCH MORE PROOF, most of which he never addressed or even referred to in his sermon. [Aside from that article, whatever it was, I would be happy to send Vance, or anyone else who is interested, my own articles on this subject. They are: "Pentecost -- The Final Answer!", "How Should We Count Pentecost?", "Pentecost -- The Untold Story," "Pentecost -- the Plain Truth!", "The Incredible Truth about Pentecost," and "Pentecost -- The Bottom Line!" -- Editor.] To be absolutely fair to Vance though, he was constrained in his sermon by the time factor. The Scriptures which were never addressed or referred to, actually provide the clinching proof of a Sivan 6 Pentecost.

Paul addressing the Sanhedrin: --

"Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, 'My brothers, I AM A PHARISEE, the son of a Pharisee'"
(Acts 23:6, NIV).

Notice the use of the PRESENT tense "I AM A PHARISEE." Paul DID NOT say I WAS A PHARISEE, because although a Christian, he still considered himself to be a TRUE Pharisee.

Just prior to this, Paul had been proclaiming to the mob in Jerusalem which was baying for his blood: --

"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, UNDER GAMALIEL I was THOROUGHLY TRAINED in the LAW of our fathers . . ." (Acts 22:3, NIV).

Gamaliel was a PHARISEE, a teacher of the LAW held in respect by all the people -- Acts 5:34. Most commentators believe that he was a grandson of the great Rabbi Hillel, who gave his name to one of the two main "Houses" of Phariseeism, the House of Hillel; the other being the House of Shammai. Eventually Gamaliel himself became the "Elder" of the House of Hillel. Although there were certain differences between these two "Houses" -- the House of Hillel being, in most cases, more moderate and compassionate than the House of Shammai -- they were totally united on the issue of counting Pentecost from the day on which the "Wave Sheaf" was offered, the day after THE ANNUAL SABBATH. Although like anyone else I stand open to correction, I challenge the opponents of a Sivan 6 Pentecost to produce any SOLID evidence to the contrary. While searching for it my hope and prayer would be that they themselves would become convicted by the PLAIN, SIMPLE, PROVABLE TRUTH.

Paul before King Agrippa: --

"THE JEWS ALL KNOW THE WAY I HAVE LIVED ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. They (ie. ALL THE JEWS) have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I LIVED AS A
PHARISEE" (Acts 26:4-5, NIV).

This is all so very plain and clear that Paul was extremely well known to ALL THE JEWS, and that he had lived as a STRICT PHARISEE ALL HIS LIFE, one very distinct hallmark of this being a SIVAN 6 PENTECOST. Vance was honest enough to acknowledge that the vast majority of Jews at the time of Christ, were keeping Pentecost on Sivan 6 according to the Pharisees' reckoning. The Scriptures leave us in no doubt that the Apostle Paul had lived as a STRICT PHARISEE all his life, and apart from those who do not wish to see, everyone must acknowledge that Paul also kept Pentecost on Sivan 6, at least up until the time of his conversion.

COULD PAUL HAVE BEEN IN ERROR ALONG WITH THE PHARISEES, IN KEEPING PENTECOST ON SIVAN 6? ON THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION HINGES THE WHOLE CONTROVERSY. LET THE INSPIRED AND PERFECT WORD OF GOD GIVE US THE TRUE AND ONLY ANSWER.

Paul's Letter to the Philippians: --

"If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; IN REGARD TO THE LAW A PHARISEE ; as for zeal, persecuting the church; AS FOR LEGALISTIC RIGHTEOUSNESS, F A U L T L E S S"
(Philippians 3:4-5, NIV).

This is so important here is the same Scripture in the NEW KING JAMES VERSION.

"If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:

circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Ben-

jamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; CONCERNING THE LAW, A PHARISEE; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; CONCERNING THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS IN THE LAW, B L A M EL E S S."

Dare anyone refute the inspired words of the Apostle Paul in which he claimed to have observed THE LAW WITHOUT FAULT? If the Sadducees were correct in reckoning Pentecost and the Pharisees WERE IN ERROR, then this Scripture could never have been inspired.

I call upon my brothers and sisters in the Church of God International [and Worldwide Church of God, and other splinter groups! -- Editor] to NOW SERIOUSLY ADDRESS THIS QUESTION, PLEASE.

I would like to end on a conciliatory note and reveal that I have just recently read an article by Vance Stinson, refuting the abominable doctrine taught by some, that the Jews are actually the offspring of Satan. Vance does an excellent job of demolishing this "Doctrine of Demons" and I thank him for it. But stop one moment and consider. Why is it that of all peoples on the earth the Jews have been singled out time and time again for the most horrific persecution and suffering that demoniacally influenced minds can devise? Simply because they and they alone have preserved the LAW OF GOD, including the Holy Days and the sacred calendar, to this very day. Satan hates them terribly for this. The Jews today keep Pentecost on Sivan 6.

"What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because TO THEM WERE COMMITTED THE ORACLES OF
GOD" (Romans 3:1-2, NKJV).



POSTED BY DAVID BEN-ARIEL AT 1:23 PM

Post script:

The whole post of course does not bear on the topic of this thread, but it could not be tampered with.