Obeying Government

[JunChosen]

My commentary on @Wrangler Post #26 and @FHII Post #39,

Indeed Romans 13:1-7 is speaking of government authority.

Proverbs 8:15-16
15 By me kings reign, and princess decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

These verses declare God is the king-maker, i.e. He puts up kings and put down kings

Romans 13:3-4
3 For rulers are not a terror for good works but to the evil. Wilt thou not be afraid of the power (those in authority)?...
4 For he is the minister to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

These verses teach that those in authority [government, soldiers, policemen, etc] they protect the citizenry but if evil is done, be afraid. For they are ministers of
God to execute the rules and laws of individual countries and put wrath upon those that do evil.

Ecclesiastes 8:11
11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Speaks of Capital Punishment.

There are many more Scripture references but the above is sufficient for understanding to what I want conveyed.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God.
Benjamin Franklin

Faulty thinking.

God commanded Israel to surrender to Nebuchadnezzer.

The only time one is to refuse to obey a government is when they demand you worship any god/idol other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and violate his laws.

 

[TheslightestID]

Either way, I see no reason to believe that's talking about a king, Caesar, Governor, President or PM.

Yet it referring to our government seems to be the norm for most when it comes to understanding that scripture. That, and I personally am not going to pick and choose what governing authorities they refer to, because governing authorities pertain to all authorities that have the legal right to govern us...simple.

I won't get into trying to prove something so obvious to me, but do some research and see how most understand it, and if you then want to be a lone wolf on the matter, that's up to you.

I disagreed with you and gave reason why, so that is about all I can do for readers when it comes to the truth of the matter

 

[FHII]

Yet it referring our government seems to be the norm for most when it comes to understanding that scripture.

I am not interested in what seems to be the norm for most. I am interested in what God meant.

I won't get into trying to prove something so obvious to me, but do some research and see how most understand it, and if you then want to be a lone wolf on the matter, that's up to you.

Wow! You just seem content to go with what the masses believe.

Interesting.

 

[JunChosen]

It's one thing for the almighty to "punish" a nation, but it's not clear when, if ever, Christians should "punish" another.

What about a Christian judge, can he pronounce a death sentence to a murderer?

To God Be The Glory

 

[FHII]

Romans 13:4 KJV
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

How simple is that? Its talking about God's ministers.

 

[Enoch111]

The only time one is to refuse to obey a government is when they demand you worship any god/idol other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and violate his laws.

So now that COVID-Moloch has been set up as the false god who will control every person on earth, and shut down every church and also arrest Christians who refuse to bow down to him and his laws (which violate God's laws), what should Christians do? All the men of God destroyed those false gods and their idols. And so should Christians.

Why Moloch? Because all the governments want to sacrifice fetuses, as well as young children, teenagers, and young people to this modern Moloch.

 

[Wrangler]

The only time one is to refuse to obey a government is when they demand you worship any god/idol other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and violate his laws.

Thank God the Founding Father's of America recognized violating our rights is sufficient reason to rebel against encroachment on our God given gifts.

 

[TheslightestID]

I am not interested in what seems to be the norm for most. I am interested in what God meant.



Wow! You just seem content to go with what the masses believe.

Interesting.

The more who believe it, the more likely it is the truth when it comes to Christian circles.

Forgive my being candid, but folks that insist on being different, the lone wolf, the guy who takes pride in so-called "thinking for himself" in spite of what others think, are often out for attention. There may be a time and place for that, but this isn't it.

I just hope you are aware of the seriousness of the high possibility you are wrong, and of your changing the true meaning of scripture, or God's word to mean what you want it to mean so you can then justify going against the Government, while encouraging others to do so as well.

 

[FHII]

The more who belive it, the more likely it is the truth when it comes to Christian circles.

What!?!?! Really????

Forgive my being candid, but folks that insist on being different, the lone wolf, the guy who takes pride in so-called "thinking for himself" in spite of what others think, are often out for attention.

Man, I quit this board for 6 months because I didn't want anymore attention and I was tired of ridiculous arguments from people looking to one up another. So if you are indeed charging that to me, you are mistaken.

I just hope you are aware of the seriousness of the high possibility you are wrong, and of your changing the true meaning of scripture, or God's word to mean what you want it to mean so you can then justify going against the Government, while encouraging others to do so as well

Are you aware of the possibility you might be wrong? You seem pretty confident on your belief based on what? Most people believe it that way!

Here's something else you have wrong: I have never said I am against obeying government, have not justified doing so and have not encouraged anyone else to do so. In fact, quite the opposite! I have stated there are verses that say to follow the law (and thus gov't) AS LONG as they don't hinder your walk with God. How would that be done? Outlawing Churches and the assembling. Outlawing the Bible. Outlawing Christianity. Then, I got a problem!

But if the masses think its right to do so, I suppose many Christians will cave in. In those days, I will gladly be a lone wolf. How about you?

1 Timothy 2:2. There's a great verse to support following governments. Titus 3:1 is another one. So is Matthew 22:21. So do I think we should obey gov't? Yes, and there are the verses I would use. I just don't believe Romans 13 is talking about a political gov't.

Why do peoe not believe that Romans 13 is talking about the Minister of God (like it says)? That answer is simple, but very cold.

If people believe that its talking about following a preacher (minister of God), then they would have to do it. And they would rather follow a politician than a preacher. They would rather have a Saul then a Samuel (1 Sam 8:7). They would rather follow Caesar than Jesus (John 19:15). There are two political examples for you.

But yeah... The more likely that people believe it, the more likely its true.

Offer your response. Or don't. Makes no difference to me. But I am done with you...

 

[TheslightestID]

Romans 13:4 KJV
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

How simple is that? Its talking about God's ministers.

A definition of minister

min·is·ter
/ˈminəstər/

attend to the needs of (someone).

A minister need not have anything to do with the clergy, and in that sense, the Government is a minister of God, they do his work, and can minister to the people Gods wishes.

 

[TheslightestID]

Offer your response. Or don't. Makes no difference to me. But I am done with you...

That is certianly one way to deal with disagreement.

 

[FHII]

In case anyone else besides TheslightestID has ANY doubts on what I believe, let me set the record straight:

I do believe people should obey the government. I have Bible verses that I have provided to back me up. Now I also believe that if a government is intolerable, people have a right to abolish it and replace it. That is one of the cornerstones of the political belief of the United States through both the Declaration and the Constitution. Both documents, by the way I think highly of. In fact, let me go on record as saying I believe the Constitution is the second greatest document ever written, only behind the Bible. Both are under constant attack, by the way.

So, lest any claim I am misleading or encouraging others not to follow the government, let me say in no way, shape or form am I doing so UNLESS the government is oppressing your walk with God. And by that I don't mean taking prayer out of schools (which they haven't done... I am a school teacher and they haven't stopped me) or taken down a Christmas Nativity scene.

No, I am talking about banning Church meetings and being a Christian with a death sentence if found guilty. These things happened in the Roman Empire and yet Paul STILL said in certain verses to obey them.

That was when Christianity was in its infancy. Today we have the power to politically fight. But I want to point something out: Did Paul obey? Did Peter? Did Stephen? Well, as much as they could but in the end, no! They did not! They obeyed God! And according to history they were killed standing with Jesus. That's where I look to stand.

So yes, I do believe in obeying Gov't, and I lean on Paul and Jesus's words in doing so. I just don't believe Romans 13 is talking about political or earthly gov'ts. If anyone want to debate that reasonably (instead of just relying on what the masses think) I will oblige.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Christians I come across in general tend to use the scripture of Paul in Romans 13 that we must obey Government in regards to our churches being closed and being locked up at home in lockdowns and taking these vaccines etc.

My question is what will those of you who hold to this doctrine as truth do when ALL NATIONS command that we worship satan and take his mark?

We obey the laws of the government until they contradict the laws of God. God's laws always come first.

 

[amigo de christo]

I give unto Caesar what is Caesars: a penny.

Just never render unto ceasar that which is Gods alone . the body , the temple . Thus , no chips or electromagnetic rfid tattoes .

 

[Marc RL Ministry]

Just never render unto ceasar that which is Gods alone . the body , the temple . Thus , no chips or electromagnetic rfid tattoes .

Amen Amen Amen.

 

[K9Buck]

Strawman. It is not government to obey but God. It is not tyranny to submit to but follow liberty, the Spirit of the Lord.

Is it your belief that Jesus wants us to take up our pitchforks and go to the Capitol and take out Nancy Pelosi and company?

Should we also visit abortion clinics and abduct and imprison the people that work there?

 

[K9Buck]

Well, he said quite a bit.

Actually, I don't think Jesus said anything about politics.

Jesus came to save us from sin. He didn't come to change world governments, that comes later. In the meantime, we're supposed to spread the word of Jesus, stay out of trouble with local government, and do unto others.

For the record, I view someone like Nancy Pelosi as the epitome of evil. If I were to attempt to do something violent to her, that would be, in effect, me exercising judgment on her. Jesus warned us against doing such things.

With that said, I am not a pacifist and I don't believe that Jesus expects us to not defend ourselves or take action against extreme evil, such as someone who is rounding up people to be exterminated.

It's murky at times and we have to use discernment and act judiciously. You have to be able to stand in front of Jesus and justify what you did. A Christian who killed an SS officer in order to try and save the lives of persecuted people is probably ok. A Christian that kills a corrupt politician for being a corrupt politician has probably committed a mortal sin.

 

[K9Buck]

The only time one is to refuse to obey a government is when they demand you worship any god/idol other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and violate his laws.

We are supposed to refuse any order that violates God's commandments.

 

[K9Buck]

Now I also believe that if a government is intolerable, people have a right to abolish it and replace it.

Do you believe that Jesus supports Christians engaging in the violent overthrow of a corrupt government? I do not. After all, to one degree or another, ALL governments are corrupt.

Now, if the government is rounding up people to be imprisoned or executed, that's different. I do believe that there is such a thing as "justified violence".