Hiddenthings
Member
So your issue with this text is the difference between receiving gifts and giving gifts, correct? And as a result of this change the prophecy is not reliable / inspired?
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Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy? - since the prophecies were acquired rather than intended
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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Hiddenthings
Member
St. SteVen said:
Ephesians 4:8 NIV
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”[b]
--- NO IT DOESN'T! ---
the realm of the dead (Sheol) to "take captivity captive." See below.
The difference between receiving gifts and giving gifts is only a misquote.
But raises questions about inspiration and inerrancy.
Psalm 68:18 NIV
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from[a] the rebellious—
that you,[b] Lord God, might dwell there.
[
Ephesians 4:8 NIV
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”[b]
--- NO IT DOESN'T! ---
I don't think the OT text has anything to do with Christ descending to
the realm of the dead (Sheol) to "take captivity captive." See below.
The difference between receiving gifts and giving gifts is only a misquote.
But raises questions about inspiration and inerrancy.
Psalm 68:18 NIV
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from[a] the rebellious—
that you,[b] Lord God, might dwell there.
Nope.
[
Hiddenthings
Member
@St. SteVen
Are you doubting the inspiration of the text?
If the writers were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit the apostle had every right to make this change, for the Victor receives the spoils with a view to giving them away. The giving is implied in the receiving.
When Christ ascended, he did not return to heaven empty-handed. On the contrary, through his accomplished mediatorial work, he returned in triumph, having secured salvation for his people. In a sense, they were part of his victorious procession.
We are told that he obtained "eternal redemption"—meaning that he himself was redeemed from death and now lives forevermore. The Life (eternal) that God granted him is now his possession, both received as a gift and given as a gift to others.
Can you see this?
Are you doubting the inspiration of the text?
If the writers were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit the apostle had every right to make this change, for the Victor receives the spoils with a view to giving them away. The giving is implied in the receiving.
When Christ ascended, he did not return to heaven empty-handed. On the contrary, through his accomplished mediatorial work, he returned in triumph, having secured salvation for his people. In a sense, they were part of his victorious procession.
We are told that he obtained "eternal redemption"—meaning that he himself was redeemed from death and now lives forevermore. The Life (eternal) that God granted him is now his possession, both received as a gift and given as a gift to others.
Can you see this?
Hiddenthings
Member
@St. SteVen the writer is most assuredly drawing your attention to the fact that Christ received in order to give.
Interestingly, I've been discussing this very topic with David Lamb. Due to his bias, he struggles to acknowledge that Jesus received Life from God, though the Scriptures make this truth abundantly clear.
This is what happens when error is held onto, Scripture ends up being forced to fit a preconceived belief, and it never truly aligns.
Interestingly, I've been discussing this very topic with David Lamb. Due to his bias, he struggles to acknowledge that Jesus received Life from God, though the Scriptures make this truth abundantly clear.
This is what happens when error is held onto, Scripture ends up being forced to fit a preconceived belief, and it never truly aligns.
Not the OT text.
But there are certainly issues with the NT text.
- OT misquote
- Misappropriated OT text claimed as prophecy.
The apostle had every right to make these changes in the OT text given under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
How so? That is clearly misappropriation.
Agree.
Agree. That's not the problem.
Good discussion BTW. Thanks.
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Hiddenthings
Member
Are you saying an Apostle who has the Holy Spirit is unable to interpret an OT text and provide deeper meaning?
How do you account for the fact that the OT text has nothing to do with where Christ was before His resurrection?
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No.
I'm questioning whether he can misappropriate it and misquote it. (under inspiration)
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Hiddenthings
Member
Sorry I'm not following you again.
Both Ephesians and Psalms both teach that Jesus was in the earth (grave)
Our God is a God who delivers; the Lord, the sovereign Lord, can rescue from death Ps 68:20.
Hiddenthings
Member
@St. SteVen The way I see it, the Apostles were given the insight to see Christ in the Old Testament and to show how God’s plan had been fulfilled through him. Stephen’s speech is a powerful example, it’s remarkable how he subtly reveals Christ through the narratives of the Old Testament. If time permitted, I could demonstrate how the entire letter to the Galatians draws heavily from the Servant Songs found in Isaiah 40 through to the end.
It's more about "bending" your mind around to see the inspiration at work first before applying a skeptical mindset - test the first before you consider the second!
I should add - you could be amazed at the hiddenthings revealed ;)
It's more about "bending" your mind around to see the inspiration at work first before applying a skeptical mindset - test the first before you consider the second!
I should add - you could be amazed at the hiddenthings revealed ;)
I agree, except about Psalms 68.
Here's the broader context below.
Nothing to do with Christ descending to the realm of the dead.
Psalm 68:15-18 NIV
Mount Bashan, majestic mountain,
Mount Bashan, rugged mountain,
16 why gaze in envy, you rugged mountain,
at the mountain where God chooses to reign,
where the Lord himself will dwell forever?
17 The chariots of God are tens of thousands
and thousands of thousands;
the Lord has come from Sinai into his sanctuary.[a]
18 When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from[b] the rebellious—
that you,[c] Lord God, might dwell there.
[
Hiddenthings
Member
Ephesians goes on to talk about verse 19 & 20 for further context!
Notice how Paul brings to light this question?
except that he also descended to the lower regions, namely, the earth? Eph 4:9.
Paul is giving you a Sunday School lesson on Psalm 68
I have no problem with that. But the proof is in the pudding.
Unfortunately, many of these would-be connections are bogus in my view.
I have no interest in propping up my faith with misappropriated "prophecies".
I'm calling foul.
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Hiddenthings
Member
No one can stop you from calling foul, just be mindful that doing so may cause you to overlook the Apostles’ exposition, which is far more trustworthy than our own. I think you can see Ephesians 4 has all the context it needs to make those insights true and reliable.
I appreciate the passage despite its monumental issues.
- Paul writes: "This is why it says:" - But it doesn't.
- OT misquote: Give gifts, or received gifts?
- Misappropriated OT text claimed as prophecy: Has nothing to do
with Christ descending to the realm of the dead.
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I agree that it is a great NT passage.
But it is one of several examples of misappropriated OT "prophecies".
Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)
I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus. But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant. Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended? Here are a couple. (we'll need to...
www.christianityboard.com
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Here's another one in chapter five of Ephesians. (misquote)
What is this quoting?
Ephesians 5:14
This is why it is said:
“Wake up, sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
Isaiah 51:17
Awake, awake!
Rise up, Jerusalem,
you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord
the cup of his wrath,
you who have drained to its dregs
the goblet that makes people stagger.
Isaiah 52:1
Awake, awake, Zion,
clothe yourself with strength!
Put on your garments of splendor,
Jerusalem, the holy city.
The uncircumcised and defiled
will not enter you again.
Isaiah 60:1
“Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the Lord rises upon you.
Here's an article trying to explain.
[
What is this quoting?
Ephesians 5:14
This is why it is said:
“Wake up, sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
Isaiah 51:17
Awake, awake!
Rise up, Jerusalem,
you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord
the cup of his wrath,
you who have drained to its dregs
the goblet that makes people stagger.
Isaiah 52:1
Awake, awake, Zion,
clothe yourself with strength!
Put on your garments of splendor,
Jerusalem, the holy city.
The uncircumcised and defiled
will not enter you again.
Isaiah 60:1
“Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the Lord rises upon you.
Here's an article trying to explain.
What scripture is Paul referring to in Ephesians 5:14?
this is no direct quote of any biblical passage, so I imagine Paul simply puts it in his own words to apply it to the context. But what is 'it'; what scripture is he paraphrasing here which fully suits the context? Why is it an appropriate verse to quote in this context?[
Hiddenthings
Member
The gifts have everything to do with what was accomplished in and through his death. You may want to consider that in the mind of Paul he is capturing far more of the wisdom and purpose of God than is written with ink on a page. I've no doubt he has the whole Psalm in view in Ephesians 4.
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