Hmm…yeah, don’t trust myself to do it but panim IS faces. I get too confused to be the one to look into that stuff.
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Hmm…yeah, don’t trust myself to do it but panim IS faces. I get too confused to be the one to look into that stuff.
When you see the word "Justified" (δικαιούμενοι, "dikaioumenoi") in Romans and Galatians, it means "declared righteous" (the Greek word for "righteous", δίκαιος, "dikaios" contains the same root word). We are declared righteous through trust (or faith). (Romans 3:28, Galatians 2:16.) Our sins are forgiven, and God says we are right with Him. Declared "righteous" - but it doesn't mean we actually live righteously. The theologians would call this "positional righteousness" or "forensic righteousness".What do you mean by "positional righteousness" exactly?
Exactly, looks like you are recognizing the doctrines of demons and are no longer going to be tricked by those defeatists. Another one is we will always sin while in this body. The real us that is born again is on the inside of this body and it is called our nature. When Adam was first created he was given a pure human nature of free will. When Adam willfully sinned that pure human nature became polluted and has been passed down to the entire world of his ancestors. When we are born again Jesus takes the sin out of the carnal nature and makes it pure again. And instead of being a slave to sin as all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, we become slaves of righteousness, because we have something Adam didn't have - The indwelling God inside. So even though we still have free will, we want to choose righteousness and turn away from temptations. And the longer we keep God's commandments through Jesus of loving with our whole spirit, soul and body, and we 'keep' ourselves pure, the promise is the devil cannot touch us. 1 John 5:18. James said, Resist the devil and he will flee. I've found that after a while, he doesn't even bother trying.those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness in their inner man will be filled. (That’s the promise.)
Heres the counter oppression and lies that is the stronghold standing opposed to the promise: oh no, we only can have a “positional” righteousness until after we die. He cannot give us true and visible and manifest righteousness while we are in this body. That verse means later, it’s not something to believe and hope for now because our flesh makes God not able to manifest.
But no! It is believing that lie rather than trusting and hoping in the promise that makes it not able to manifest.
Its “did God really say” all over again.
i totally believe we are already living in eternity having accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour and having our sin washed away so that in God's eyes we are without blemish.
I myself am not crazy about the phrase but I don’t know a better one. No, that’s not right…I’m okay with the phrase, I’m just not okay with the insistence that there can be no ACTUAL righteousness in our inner man for us until after death.@stunnedbygrace What do you mean by "positional righteousness" exactly?
That sounds about right. God knows us and are failings and accomplishments and who we are. I honestly believe that some are more spiritually mature than others and therefore look better in life according to God's commandments.I myself am not crazy about the phrase but I don’t know a better one. No, that’s not right…I’m okay with the phrase, I’m just not okay with the insistence that there can be no ACTUAL righteousness in our inner man for us until after death.
I explained how I see it in post #19. Did you read it?
Its like…does anyone reject a baby because it keeps soiling itself? Nope. The baby is continually washed clean until the baby is old enough to bear being taught to stop doing it. That’s sort of like what people like to call “positional” righteousness.
He just doesn't say when.But He has said, those who hunger for that true righteousness in our heart WILL be filled.
You are still conflating the two somewhat. It’s very difficult not to do that in our head.When you see the word "Justified" (δικαιούμενοι, "dikaioumenoi") in Romans and Galatians, it means "declared righteous" (the Greek word for "righteous", δίκαιος, "dikaios" contains the same root word). We are declared righteous through trust (or faith). (Romans 3:28, Galatians 2:16.) Our sins are forgiven, and God says we are right with Him. Declared "righteous" - but it doesn't mean we actually live righteously. The theologians would call this "positional righteousness" or "forensic righteousness".
Then the question becomes, "Okay, our sins are forgiven and God has declared us righteous. I hunger and thirst for real righteousness. Being creatures of flesh in this world, is it possible to live in actual and total right relationship to God and our fellow human beings for an extended period of time?" (Which of course involves never sinning in thought, word, and deed, and never failing in our obligations to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbors as ourselves.)
My own answer would be, "With men, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible!" (Matthew 19:26.)
Yes. In that particular place He does not say when. You have to believe what He says there and begin to hope for it and wait patiently.He just doesn't say when.
People who hunger after righteousness and do the will of the Father are filled with the Holy Spirit and filled that way.Yes. In that particular place He does not say when. You have to believe what He says there and begin to hope for it and wait patiently.
"Righteousness", among other things, means to give each one their due. That means rendering to man what is due man, and rendering to God what is due God. You are confused because there is considerable overlap with "Holiness", and you can see this in the Bible.You are still conflating the two somewhat. It’s very difficult not to do that in our head.
Righteousness is the one tablet - the treatment of others.
Holiness is the other tablet.
Note that Paul addresses God's people as "Saints", ἅγιοι, literally "Holy Ones", not as two separate camps, righteous ones and holy ones."Righteousness", among other things, means to give each one their due. That means rendering to man what is due man, and rendering to God what is due God. You are confused because there is considerable overlap with "Holiness", and you can see this in the Bible.
There is no overlap. One is either holy or not holy. There’s not such a thing as partially holy. There can be more righteous and less righteous. There can be sometimes missing the mark in righteousness. In holiness there is NO sin, not a speck. In holiness, it’s one strike and youre out."Righteousness", among other things, means to give each one their due. That means rendering to man what is due man, and rendering to God what is due God. You are confused because there is considerable overlap with "Holiness", and you can see this in the Bible.
Okay, you’re a saint. I believe you. You have convinced me.Note that Paul addresses God's people as "Saints", ἅγιοι, literally "Holy Ones", not as two separate camps, righteous ones and holy ones.
Dueling with dualism?Up until today, "positional righteousness" was a thing that was yet to happen only, not for now so no, I do not see it as a bad thing, just a new thing for myself. Yeah, seems I went right back to focusing on the latter ignoring the former belief all together, I'm insane
"No GREATER righteousness exits" - and we are to strive for this righteousness all the time, yes?
"There is both righteousness by faith AND holiness. God accepts and makes a place for both."
Oh the duality!!!!!
Paul on numerous occasions addresses the faithful and the saints... See Ephesians 1:1, Colossians 2:1. Never once is the Phrase "faithful saints" used as if to imply the faithful equal the saints. Revelation adds to this by stating three groups in end times The chosen, the faithful and the called (Which I believe are the 144k of Israel). For me, from my studies of Scripture, the faithful are all who believe, we are all on the road to sainthood, but some are chosen by God to be saints, that is to give their testimony (Martyria). What marks a saint is agape love, which is the final of the virtues spoken of in 2 Peter 1:5-7.Note that Paul addresses God's people as "Saints", ἅγιοι, literally "Holy Ones", not as two separate camps, righteous ones and holy ones.