Oh Boy! Seeing So Much!

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stunnedbygrace

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Hmm…yeah, don’t trust myself to do it but panim IS faces. I get too confused to be the one to look into that stuff.
 

L.A.M.B.

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2 Corinthians 5:19-21 ( cxt )
To wit, THAT GOD was in CHRIST, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM; and hath committed unto US the Word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ stead, be reconciled to God.
FOR HE HATH MADE HIM TO BE SIN FOR US, WHO KNEW NO SIN; THAT WE MIGHT BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM.

1 John 3: 5-8 (
cxt)
V6. Whosoever ABIDETH in him sinneth not: whosoever sinner hath not seen him, neither know HIM.
7. Little children, let no man DECEIVE you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

After we are saved we must ask........ what am I supposed to be doing to please God and be in his will ?

Jesus said to take up our cross DAILY and FOLLOW HIM !
It is simple yet it is the hardest thing we will ever do for this is our whole future beyond earthly living.

We must follow him in the truth, we must follow him in obedience. We must see that the WE of who we are is decreasing and the righteousness of CHRIST is increasing.

How you say ? We must eat of the scroll as you said in another thread @stunnedbygrace . Let his word be our souls nourishment, no matter how bitter or sweet.
Take only his word as proof of him and all he requires and promises.
 

Jay Ross

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Hmm…yeah, don’t trust myself to do it but panim IS faces. I get too confused to be the one to look into that stuff.

Yea, I get that feeling sometimes too. The Hebrew words confuse me as the Hebrew Root Word can be embedded in so many different Hebrew words and just like the Latin Roots of the English Language we also have to have an understanding of the modifiers that surround the root word itself that I have to let the understanding problem sit up there on the ledge just out of reach until the Holy Spirit brings enlightenment and solves my issues with my understanding and the context of what is being presented in the Texts.

Shalom
 
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Lambano

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What do you mean by "positional righteousness" exactly?
When you see the word "Justified" (δικαιούμενοι, "dikaioumenoi") in Romans and Galatians, it means "declared righteous" (the Greek word for "righteous", δίκαιος, "dikaios" contains the same root word). We are declared righteous through trust (or faith). (Romans 3:28, Galatians 2:16.) Our sins are forgiven, and God says we are right with Him. Declared "righteous" - but it doesn't mean we actually live righteously. The theologians would call this "positional righteousness" or "forensic righteousness".

Then the question becomes, "Okay, our sins are forgiven and God has declared us righteous. I hunger and thirst for real righteousness. Being creatures of flesh in this world, is it possible to live in actual and total right relationship to God and our fellow human beings for an extended period of time?" (Which of course involves never sinning in thought, word, and deed, and never failing in our obligations to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbors as ourselves.)

My own answer would be, "With men, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible!" (Matthew 19:26.)
 
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1stCenturyLady

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those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness in their inner man will be filled. (That’s the promise.)
Heres the counter oppression and lies that is the stronghold standing opposed to the promise: oh no, we only can have a “positional” righteousness until after we die. He cannot give us true and visible and manifest righteousness while we are in this body. That verse means later, it’s not something to believe and hope for now because our flesh makes God not able to manifest.

But no! It is believing that lie rather than trusting and hoping in the promise that makes it not able to manifest.
Its “did God really say” all over again.
Exactly, looks like you are recognizing the doctrines of demons and are no longer going to be tricked by those defeatists. Another one is we will always sin while in this body. The real us that is born again is on the inside of this body and it is called our nature. When Adam was first created he was given a pure human nature of free will. When Adam willfully sinned that pure human nature became polluted and has been passed down to the entire world of his ancestors. When we are born again Jesus takes the sin out of the carnal nature and makes it pure again. And instead of being a slave to sin as all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, we become slaves of righteousness, because we have something Adam didn't have - The indwelling God inside. So even though we still have free will, we want to choose righteousness and turn away from temptations. And the longer we keep God's commandments through Jesus of loving with our whole spirit, soul and body, and we 'keep' ourselves pure, the promise is the devil cannot touch us. 1 John 5:18. James said, Resist the devil and he will flee. I've found that after a while, he doesn't even bother trying.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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i totally believe we are already living in eternity having accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour and having our sin washed away so that in God's eyes we are without blemish.

Pearl, God sees all, so if in God's eyes you are without blemish it is because Jesus accomplished in you what He came to do. It is real righteousness. Don't believe the lies of the devil of "imputed" righteousness. That was in 4 and 5 of the 8 chapter teaching on the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Romans 4 and 5 are about those in the Old Covenant. We have much better promises and reality in the New Covenant.

All those with imputed righteousness who have passed away like Abraham and King David rose when Jesus did, and they are in heaven already. Then were even seen walking around Jerusalem. Remember Jesus was still on the earth for 40 more days before He ascended. Even though it says nothing about those dead who walked around Jerusalem dying again, God has already revealed to me they are already in heaven in their new bodies and are the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12:1. When we did, our spirit and soul (our life force consisting of our mind and conscience/heart where God's laws are written are in heaven, but are awaiting the second coming to be reunited with our new bodies.

The dead unsaved are in outer darkness alone with no sound or light, like a prison solitary confinement where some have gone crazy. They will also be raised but will be judged and destroyed in the lake of fire. That is called the second death.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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@stunnedbygrace What do you mean by "positional righteousness" exactly?
I myself am not crazy about the phrase but I don’t know a better one. No, that’s not right…I’m okay with the phrase, I’m just not okay with the insistence that there can be no ACTUAL righteousness in our inner man for us until after death.

I explained how I see it in post #19. Did you read it?

Its like…does anyone reject a baby because it keeps soiling itself? Nope. The baby is continually washed clean until the baby is old enough to bear being taught to stop doing it. That’s sort of like what people like to call “positional” righteousness.

Its not exactly as simple as that though, because the flesh wars against the Spirit so that we sometimes don’t do what we agree is good and want to do. We sometimes rather do what we agree is bad and what we don’t want to do, like…murder someone in our heart, our inner man. But we show by this that we are learning what God says is right/righteous even if we find our flesh is mercilessly ruling over us and making us not be able to do what we want To. And so we begin to hunger for true righteousness in our inner man, in our heart. We can then get lost for some time in trying to achieve this by our own willing and power instead of going to God for more grace to overcome.

We also can start believing the lie that there is ONLY this positional righteousness in life and that God cannot put our flesh under our feet while we are on earth. But He has said, those who hunger for that true righteousness in our heart WILL be filled.
 
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dev553344

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I myself am not crazy about the phrase but I don’t know a better one. No, that’s not right…I’m okay with the phrase, I’m just not okay with the insistence that there can be no ACTUAL righteousness in our inner man for us until after death.

I explained how I see it in post #19. Did you read it?

Its like…does anyone reject a baby because it keeps soiling itself? Nope. The baby is continually washed clean until the baby is old enough to bear being taught to stop doing it. That’s sort of like what people like to call “positional” righteousness.
That sounds about right. God knows us and are failings and accomplishments and who we are. I honestly believe that some are more spiritually mature than others and therefore look better in life according to God's commandments.

I kinda see a pre-existence where God created us spiritually but not all at once. So some are older than others. Satan being a very old spirit and therefore highly intelligent and dangerous.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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When you see the word "Justified" (δικαιούμενοι, "dikaioumenoi") in Romans and Galatians, it means "declared righteous" (the Greek word for "righteous", δίκαιος, "dikaios" contains the same root word). We are declared righteous through trust (or faith). (Romans 3:28, Galatians 2:16.) Our sins are forgiven, and God says we are right with Him. Declared "righteous" - but it doesn't mean we actually live righteously. The theologians would call this "positional righteousness" or "forensic righteousness".

Then the question becomes, "Okay, our sins are forgiven and God has declared us righteous. I hunger and thirst for real righteousness. Being creatures of flesh in this world, is it possible to live in actual and total right relationship to God and our fellow human beings for an extended period of time?" (Which of course involves never sinning in thought, word, and deed, and never failing in our obligations to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbors as ourselves.)

My own answer would be, "With men, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible!" (Matthew 19:26.)
You are still conflating the two somewhat. It’s very difficult not to do that in our head.
Righteousness is the one tablet - the treatment of others.
Holiness is the other tablet.
 

dev553344

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Yes. In that particular place He does not say when. You have to believe what He says there and begin to hope for it and wait patiently.
People who hunger after righteousness and do the will of the Father are filled with the Holy Spirit and filled that way.
 

Lambano

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You are still conflating the two somewhat. It’s very difficult not to do that in our head.
Righteousness is the one tablet - the treatment of others.
Holiness is the other tablet.
"Righteousness", among other things, means to give each one their due. That means rendering to man what is due man, and rendering to God what is due God. You are confused because there is considerable overlap with "Holiness", and you can see this in the Bible.
 

Lambano

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"Righteousness", among other things, means to give each one their due. That means rendering to man what is due man, and rendering to God what is due God. You are confused because there is considerable overlap with "Holiness", and you can see this in the Bible.
Note that Paul addresses God's people as "Saints", ἅγιοι, literally "Holy Ones", not as two separate camps, righteous ones and holy ones.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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"Righteousness", among other things, means to give each one their due. That means rendering to man what is due man, and rendering to God what is due God. You are confused because there is considerable overlap with "Holiness", and you can see this in the Bible.
There is no overlap. One is either holy or not holy. There’s not such a thing as partially holy. There can be more righteous and less righteous. There can be sometimes missing the mark in righteousness. In holiness there is NO sin, not a speck. In holiness, it’s one strike and youre out.
We learn and practice righteousness. It’s to be led by the Holy Spirit.
We have to be taken into holiness. We are either there or not there. It’s to walk IN the Holy Spirit. There is no sin IN Him.

I would ask you to find both old and New Testament verses that show there can be partially holy. You will not be able to do it.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Note that Paul addresses God's people as "Saints", ἅγιοι, literally "Holy Ones", not as two separate camps, righteous ones and holy ones.
Okay, you’re a saint. I believe you. You have convinced me.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Up until today, "positional righteousness" was a thing that was yet to happen only, not for now so no, I do not see it as a bad thing, just a new thing for myself. Yeah, seems I went right back to focusing on the latter ignoring the former belief all together, I'm insane o_O:Hanging:
"No GREATER righteousness exits" - and we are to strive for this righteousness all the time, yes?

"There is both righteousness by faith AND holiness. God accepts and makes a place for both."

Oh the duality!!!!!
Dueling with dualism?
 

David H.

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Note that Paul addresses God's people as "Saints", ἅγιοι, literally "Holy Ones", not as two separate camps, righteous ones and holy ones.
Paul on numerous occasions addresses the faithful and the saints... See Ephesians 1:1, Colossians 2:1. Never once is the Phrase "faithful saints" used as if to imply the faithful equal the saints. Revelation adds to this by stating three groups in end times The chosen, the faithful and the called (Which I believe are the 144k of Israel). For me, from my studies of Scripture, the faithful are all who believe, we are all on the road to sainthood, but some are chosen by God to be saints, that is to give their testimony (Martyria). What marks a saint is agape love, which is the final of the virtues spoken of in 2 Peter 1:5-7.

I think scripture is also very clear that we are declared righteous by virtue of the blood atonement, and then by the work of the Spirit we are being made Holy. To be a saint is the high calling of God in Christ, to suffer as Christ suffered, etc.