Let's for a moment set aside the arguments of old vs young.
Instead let's discuss what really changes about God and his sovereignty IF the world is old.
Instead let's discuss what really changes about God and his sovereignty IF the world is old.
Old Earth
- Thread starter pom2014
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If the world is old, then much of the bible is fictitious, and the prophets and Christ Himself maintained this fiction as truth. Therefore, scripture is filled with many lies, and cannot be trusted as a source of truth. So of if there is a God, it is not the one in or of the bible. If it is, then I suppose there is no real standard for truth according to Him, since we all have to decide for ourselves what parts of His word are true and what parts are not.pom2014 said:
Born_Again
Well-Known Member
Okay, lets say the world is old.... I wouldn't say anything changes about God. What changes is how we perceive the passage of time in scripture or how time is measured. It is estimated that dinosaurs live about 65 million years ago, though it is thought that man may have existed during their time. Surely, if this were the case, at some point a person could have very well been eaten. After the fall of man of course LOL Someone would have injected that.,
I think we are possibly misunderstanding the passage of time... God says let day and night separate.. but not to split hairs here, but this is not an accurate portrayal of time in the poles of the earth. In Alaska it can be daylight at 11pm. Science cant be totally excluded here as it can provide physical proof in some aspect. And was He just speaking of the Garden of Eden at that time?
There is no real way to simplify this argument. Well you can, if you just take it on faith.
BA
I think we are possibly misunderstanding the passage of time... God says let day and night separate.. but not to split hairs here, but this is not an accurate portrayal of time in the poles of the earth. In Alaska it can be daylight at 11pm. Science cant be totally excluded here as it can provide physical proof in some aspect. And was He just speaking of the Garden of Eden at that time?
There is no real way to simplify this argument. Well you can, if you just take it on faith.
BA
So, how do we define young and old? Do we not refer to something at its beginning stage as being "in its infancy"? And we know everything in the universe evolves over time... So, when God made Adam (as an adult so it seems) he was still a "young" human. There is also evidence that the conditions of the earth during Adam's time were different from the earth we experience today. For instance, Australian and New Guinea were all one continent during the time of Adam. And the half of North America was a desert during that time and the Sahara was all grasslands...winc said:
[SIZE=12pt]The bible addresses the creation of the world in many places. The book is either the truth, or it is a lie, or a mixture of both. If it contains many lies, who and how does one determine what is truth and what is a lie from the same? By what criteria does one determine that what it says about Christ is true, and what it says about creation is false. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]If the Genesis account of creation doesn’t really mean what it says, then how do we know what the bible says about Christ, really means what it says? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]If the theory of evolution is correct or the earth is very very old, then the first five chapters of the book of Genesis, at the very least, are trashed. Moreover, the basic fundamental teaching upon which all scripture is built, is not true. If one cannot see just how far reaching the implications are, perhaps they just don't want to, or don't know scripture well enough to see the dilemma created by rejecting its testimony about creation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]It means that God did not create the world in six days, and there is not, and never was a seventh day Sabbath. Which also of course means, that God lied when He spoke the fourth commandment. Which also of course means that God commanded, and enforced a false day of worship upon His people, commemorating an event that never really happened. Even pronouncing judgment, and carrying out punishment against them for it’s violation, when as a matter of fact, the event the day is supposed to commemorate never even happened.. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]It means that the story of Adam and Eve is also false. Thus probably also, the account of their disobedience to God, and subsequent fall. Thus also their need for salvation. Thus also their need of a Savior. Of course, lets not forget the fact that they passed this fallen nature, in desperate need of salvation, on to all the rest of humanity. Thus all of humanities need of salvation, and a Savior. Is there any need to go on? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Just exactly what we have been saved from? Why do we need salvation? How is any of this is relevant, if in fact God did not create this world in six days as the bible claims, and Adam and Eve did not fall from a state of existence in relation to the same, but rather came about over ions of time through some evolutionary process which changed some primordial soup into the beautiful and unfathomably complex and interdependent world which we live in? Guided by the hand of God, of course. According to the superior wisdom of “Christian” evolutionists, rather than the word of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]If the Genesis account of creation doesn’t really mean what it says, then how do we know what the bible says about Christ, really means what it says? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]If the theory of evolution is correct or the earth is very very old, then the first five chapters of the book of Genesis, at the very least, are trashed. Moreover, the basic fundamental teaching upon which all scripture is built, is not true. If one cannot see just how far reaching the implications are, perhaps they just don't want to, or don't know scripture well enough to see the dilemma created by rejecting its testimony about creation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]It means that God did not create the world in six days, and there is not, and never was a seventh day Sabbath. Which also of course means, that God lied when He spoke the fourth commandment. Which also of course means that God commanded, and enforced a false day of worship upon His people, commemorating an event that never really happened. Even pronouncing judgment, and carrying out punishment against them for it’s violation, when as a matter of fact, the event the day is supposed to commemorate never even happened.. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]It means that the story of Adam and Eve is also false. Thus probably also, the account of their disobedience to God, and subsequent fall. Thus also their need for salvation. Thus also their need of a Savior. Of course, lets not forget the fact that they passed this fallen nature, in desperate need of salvation, on to all the rest of humanity. Thus all of humanities need of salvation, and a Savior. Is there any need to go on? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Just exactly what we have been saved from? Why do we need salvation? How is any of this is relevant, if in fact God did not create this world in six days as the bible claims, and Adam and Eve did not fall from a state of existence in relation to the same, but rather came about over ions of time through some evolutionary process which changed some primordial soup into the beautiful and unfathomably complex and interdependent world which we live in? Guided by the hand of God, of course. According to the superior wisdom of “Christian” evolutionists, rather than the word of God.[/SIZE]
So what you're saying is if the earth is old God no longer can be true?Keeth said:
So when the church believed that the sun revolved around the earth because that is what they thought scripture said when they found out that was not true they lost faith in God?
That's a lot that you have to live with then. I'm so sorry for you.
A church beleived the sun revolved around the earth, does the bible say that the sun revolves around the earth. A lot of churches beleive and say things that are not in the bible. I'm not addressing what this or that church teaches, but what the bible says. If the earth is old, the implications go much further, and create problems with more scripture than most consider.pom2014 said:
justaname
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Nothing about God changes. God is true and His truth remains. Within this, Scripture would remain unchanged also; only the hermeneutic and interpretation of Scripture would change.
Born_Again
Well-Known Member
I stand corrected. There is a way to simplify the argument. Hahaha.. Thank you Justaname.justaname said:
Lot's of theories on this topic, basically trying to reconcile the Bible with modern science. One of the most intriguing explanations I've read were in a book that was published 100 years ago by Clarence Larkin called "The Greatest Book on Dispensational Truth in the World". Despite it's long and somewhat brazen title, I thought the book was very well written and did a good job of explaining concepts using detailed drawing created by the author. On the subject of "old earth", Larkin explained that there was actually an earth before the creation. This "old earth" had animals, but no humans. Life was destroyed on it because of a cataclysmic event (the fall ?) and the earth was "formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep" (Gen 1:2), which explains how "the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters" (Gen 1:2). There had to be waters to move over.. Anyhow, as I said, an interesting explanation. Here is a link to one of his drawings from the book, although there is a better one for this particular subject that I can't find on the web:
http://www.raptureforums.com/ClarenceLarkin/images/5-generation.gif
http://www.raptureforums.com/ClarenceLarkin/images/5-generation.gif
what do you mean when - the sun and the whole universe even now revolve around the earth - the earth is special and unique = see www.galileowaswrong.com and geocentrism at www.johnsalza.com - wincpom2014 said:
Science has not been able to discredit anything in the Bible related to the creation of the universe.Keeth said:
The problems lie in how fallible human thinking can misinterpret what the Bible says. Why is God a lair when humans misinterpret and misunderstand what He says? That doesn't make sense!
The questions you ask are addressed in other posts on this thread. Are you reading them?
Yes I have read them, and no, no one has answered them. Just saying that nothing changes but the way we interpret the scriptures does not answer my questions. If the creation abnd fall account is not literal, then what did happen? What was the fall, and why do we need salvation? Is this is now left up to the individual to decide for themsleves? Here we are, please tell us if you are an old earth proponent, what happened. Then tell us why we should beleive you,and where your authority and knowledge come from please. Young earth proponents are not the ones claiming the bible doesn't mean what it plainly says about creation and the fall. Old earth proponents are the ones who need to reinterpret what the bible plainly says about creation and the fall, not those who accept what the scriptures plainly and conclusively states.DogLady19 said:
We do not know that everything in the universe evolves over time. There is serious evidence to the opposite effect. The Cambrian explosion just to mentioin one. We know the earth is not at all like it once was, due to the flood. Or do you beleive this biblical account to be false, or in need of redefinition by us also?DogLady19 said:
Keeth look up golden age of Ur.
Look at the date.
Then look at the biblical time line and place your finger on the flood event date.
Then pause and consider.
Look at the date.
Then look at the biblical time line and place your finger on the flood event date.
Then pause and consider.
It does mean what it says. Maybe you're just reading it wrong.Keeth said:
Nope. Evolution is true, the earth is very old, and Genesis and the rest of scripture are true. This young-earth creationism nonsense is a minority position among Christians worldwide (and it can be argued is a relatively recent Seventh Day Adventist invention).
It's sad that you've been convinced of all that. God's creation is most definitely another means of His revelation, and it is abundantly clear that evolution happens and the universe is very, very old. But rather than admit your fallibility, you demand that God's creation be shoehorned into your interpretive framework. How arrogant.
So if the earth is old, humans aren't sinners and in need of God's grace? How does that work? :wacko:Keeth said:
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