Oldest and Best, Really??

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GerhardEbersoehn

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the term 'Majority text' refers to the majority of existing Greek manuscripts going back to the Byzantine tradition. That means long before Erasmus did his Textus Receptus translation. Erasmus also used the ancient Vulgate manuscript texts.

Other than Vulgate Latin texts, Erasmus specifically used these Greek texts...

Codex Basilensis A. N. IV. 2 Minuscule 1 (12th century A.D.)
Minuscule 2814, AV28 (Minuscule 1rK) (12th century A.D.)
Codex Basilensis Minuscule 2e (12th century)
Minuscule 2815 2ap (12th century)
Minuscule 2816 4ap (15th century A.D.)
Minuscule 7 (12th century)
Minuscule 817 (15th century)
<'Majority text'> is a translation misnomer for 'Textus Receptus'--'Received Text'; the number of texts or manuscripts is irrelevant.
Now if the <'Majority text' refers to the majority of existing Greek manuscripts going back to the Byzantine tradition> it is inexplicable how the 'Majority text' refers to the majority of <'EXISTING' Greek manuscripts going back to the Byzantine tradition> that did not then, exist. IOW you're talking nonsense. And by the buy, 'Majority Text' is not <a term>. Figure that one out for yourself.

Re: <Erasmus also used the ancient Vulgate manuscript texts.> Who cares? the Vulgate existed only in manuscript until it was printed the first time. But for your information, those manuscript texts of the Vulgate were TRANSLATION -- no Greek manuscripts.

Just, only, exactly, no more : WHICH sources do you get this from, that Erasmus allegedly had included in the compilation of manuscripts which he combined which Tyndale translated from?:
Codex Basilensis A. N. IV. 2 Minuscule 1 (12th century A.D.)
Minuscule 2814, AV28 (Minuscule 1rK) (12th century A.D.)
Codex Basilensis Minuscule 2e (12th century)
Minuscule 2815 2ap (12th century)
Minuscule 2816 4ap (15th century A.D.)
Minuscule 7 (12th century)
Minuscule 817 (15th century) ---and:
Just, only, exactly, no more : WHEN were these manuscripts first time SEEN individually never mind together?

You have no clue of anything about the received Greek manuscripts at the time, before or after Erasmus. Go to bed!
 
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ElieG12

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Before plaguing Egypt to deliver His people,Jehovah had told Pharaoh the following:

Exo. 9:13 Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Get up early in the morning and station yourself in front of Pharaoh, and say to him, ‘This is what Jehovah the God of the Hebrews has said: “Send my people away so that they may serve me. 14 For now I am directing all my blows to strike your heart, your servants, and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. 15 For by now I could have thrust my hand out to strike you and your people with a devastating plague, and you would have been wiped out from the earth. 16 But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth. 17 Are you still behaving arrogantly against my people by not sending them away?

... but Pharaoh was very stubborn and had disrespected Jehovah saying to Moses:

Exo. 5:2 But Pharaoh said: “Who is Jehovah, that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all, and what is more, I will not send Israel away.”

More than 40 years had passed since Jehovah had made his greatness known. Rahab was living in Jericho when the Israelites were about to begin their entry into Canaan to conquer it by 1473 BC. Joshua sent two spies to inspect the city of Jericho (Josh.2), and she hid them in her house. She told them:

Josh. 2:9 She said to the men: “I do know that Jehovah will give you the land and that the fear of you has fallen upon us. All the inhabitants of the land are disheartened because of you, 10 for we heard how Jehovah dried up the waters of the Red Sea before you when you left Egypt and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites, Sihon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction on the other side of the Jordan. 11 When we heard about it, we lost heart, and no one has any courage because of you, for Jehovah your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath. 12 Now, please, swear to me by Jehovah that, because I showed loyal love to you, you will also show loyal love to my father’s household; and you must give me a sign of good faith. 13 You must spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them, and you must save us from death.”

A short time later, when Joshua and his Israelite army were about enter Gibeonite territory (Josh.9), they, Gibeonite community,

"sent a delegation to Joshua at Gilgal to sue for peace. The Gibeonite ambassadors—dressed in worn-out garments and sandals and having burst, skin wine-bottles, worn-out sacks, and dry, crumbly bread—represented themselves as being from a distant land, hence not in the way of Israel’s conquests. They acknowledged Jehovah’s hand in what had earlier befallen Egypt and the Amorite kings Sihon and Og. But wisely they did not mention what had happened to Jericho and Ai, as such news could not have reached their “very distant land” before the supposed departure. Israel’s representatives examined and accepted the evidence and covenanted with them to let them live."

They told Joshua and his men:

Josh. 9:9 (...) “Your servants have come from a very distant land out of regard for the name of Jehovah your God, because we have heard about his fame and about all he did in Egypt 10 and about all he did to the two kings of the Amʹor·ites who were on the other side of the Jordan, King Sihon of Heshbon and King Og of Bashan, who was in Ashtaroth. 11 So our elders and all the inhabitants of our land told us, ‘Take provisions with you for the journey and go to meet them. Tell them: “We will be your servants; now make a covenant with us.”’ 12 This bread that we took as our provisions was still hot on the day we left our houses to come here to you. Now you can see it is dry and crumbly. 13 And these wineskins were new when we filled them, but now they have burst. And our garments and sandals have worn out because of the great length of the journey.”

Was it important to God that the Israelites use his personal name?
Why was it important for the Israelites to know and use Jehovah's personal name?
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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The Names of God Bible (NOG) accurately translates the meaning of the original texts into clear, everyday language. While most translations obscure the names and titles of God by replacing them with just a few English words such as God, Lord, or LORD, The Names of God Bible restores the transliterations of ancient names—such as Yahweh, El Shadday, El Elyon, and Adonay—to help the reader better understand the rich meaning of God’s names that are found in the original Hebrew and Aramaic text.
Re: <El Elyon> --- Elohim???? ever???? --- I BET MY BOOTS, NO!
 

Robert Gwin

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So you have to have the right name like a pass code or a combination to a safe in order to get saved?
There are many requirements Rl, but the answer is yes. It is rather obvious that you have to be calling on the name of the true God, you aren't thinking one could be calling on baal and believe that Jehovah is going to give you salvation are you?
 
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Robert Gwin

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Silly thing labels. Who shall I say sent me our Father God was asked. And He answered I exist....
I am good with that.
Why not finish what God said to Moses sir, is there a particular reason why you didn't?
 

RLT63

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There are many requirements Rl, but the answer is yes. It is rather obvious that you have to be calling on the name of the true God, you aren't thinking one could be calling on baal and believe that Jehovah is going to give you salvation are you?
I call him Lord and I’m confident that he hears me.
 
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Robert Gwin

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I call him Lord and I’m confident that he hears me.
Based on your sincerity, I am sure He would RL, but at some point if one continues to shun His name, I would imagine He would turn a deaf ear. Clearly if one chose not to make His name known following Jesus' example, then it is rather obvious they are not really a Christian correct?
(John 17:26) 26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known. . .
(Matthew 28:19, 20) . . .Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, . . .20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Christians follow Jesus' example
(1 Peter 2:21) . . .Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely.
 
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RLT63

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Based on your sincerity, I am sure He would RL, but at some point if one continues to shun His name, I would imagine He would turn a deaf ear. Clearly if one chose not to make His name known following Jesus' example, then it is rather obvious they are not really a Christian correct?
(John 17:26) 26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known. . .
(Matthew 28:19, 20) . . .Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, . . .20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Christians follow Jesus' example
(1 Peter 2:21) . . .Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely.
Jesus called him the Father, that. Is his example
 

Wrangler

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So you have to have the right name like a pass code or a combination to a safe in order to get saved?
What part of Romans 10:13, that @Robert Gwin cited, do you not get?
There are many requirements Rl, but the answer is yes. It is rather obvious that you have to be calling on the name of the true God, you aren't thinking one could be calling on baal and believe that Jehovah is going to give you salvation are you?

I'm confident YHWH makes allowances for language difference he created and the cultures in which we developed. For instance, most Americans probably don't know God has a name. They may simply call out to "God." I know I did. Others immersed in Islamic cultures probably know no other name for God besides Allah.

But for those who know Baal, YHHW, Krishna, Mercury, Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite, Aethena, Ra, and Lucifer; one cannot expect Jesus' God to react to one who defies Romans 10:13 (NLT) For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. For it begs the question, what purpose then, does Roman 10:13, serve? Indeed, what purpose does the 1st Commandment serve if its AOK to defy the most basic command of he who you call upon to deliver thee?

Yes, I boldly go before the throne of God - but not in defiance of what I know he expects from me, especially not the most basic thing! Whenever these conversations come up, I cannot help think up Ali beating up on a guy, asking 'what's my name?' The opponent did not merely oppose Ali in the ring, he opposed bestowing upon Ali the basic respect, not of a pugilist, but a man. How much more respect do we owe our Creator?
 

Davy

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No modern translation (with the sole exception of the Jehovah's Witness New World Translation) is based on their NT translation.
Of course, that... is a fib.

If a New Testament version has the 'NU' symbols, it stands for the Nestle-Aland and United Bible Societies NT versions, which DO USE WESCOTT AND HORT'S new Greek NT translation from Alexandria manuscripts. These texts are called the 'Critical texts' and is what MODERN NEW TESTAMENT HIGHER CRITICISM is based upon.

Even the New King James Version (NKJV) uses the NU texts, when the original 1611 KJV Bible did not.
 
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RLT63

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What part of Romans 10:13, that @Robert Gwin cited, do you not get?


I'm confident YHWH makes allowances for language difference he created and the cultures in which we developed. For instance, most Americans probably don't know God has a name. They may simply call out to "God." I know I did. Others immersed in Islamic cultures probably know no other name for God besides Allah.

But for those who know Baal, YHHW, Krishna, Mercury, Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite, Aethena, Ra, and Lucifer; one cannot expect Jesus' God to react to one who defies Romans 10:13 (NLT) For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. For it begs the question, what purpose then, does Roman 10:13, serve? Indeed, what purpose does the 1st Commandment serve if its AOK to defy the most basic command of he who you call upon to deliver thee?

Yes, I boldly go before the throne of God - but not in defiance of what I know he expects from me, especially not the most basic thing! Whenever these conversations come up, I cannot help think up Ali beating up on a guy, asking 'what's my name?' The opponent did not merely oppose Ali in the ring, he opposed bestowing upon Ali the basic respect, not of a pugilist, but a man. How much more respect do we owe our Creator?
Which name do you advise that we use? I just say Father or Lord .
 

RLT63

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You do realize that 'father' is a relational name, not a personal name, right? While our lord is the Son of God, we know "Son" is not his personal name.
Saying Our Father was the way Jesus taught us to pray
 
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ElieG12

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Before plaguing Egypt to deliver His people,Jehovah had told Pharaoh the following:

Exo. 9:13 Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Get up early in the morning and station yourself in front of Pharaoh, and say to him, ‘This is what Jehovah the God of the Hebrews has said: “Send my people away so that they may serve me. 14 For now I am directing all my blows to strike your heart, your servants, and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. 15 For by now I could have thrust my hand out to strike you and your people with a devastating plague, and you would have been wiped out from the earth. 16 But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth. 17 Are you still behaving arrogantly against my people by not sending them away?

... but Pharaoh was very stubborn and had disrespected Jehovah saying to Moses:

Exo. 5:2 But Pharaoh said: “Who is Jehovah, that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all, and what is more, I will not send Israel away.”

More than 40 years had passed since Jehovah had made his greatness known. Rahab was living in Jericho when the Israelites were about to begin their entry into Canaan to conquer it by 1473 BC. Joshua sent two spies to inspect the city of Jericho (Josh.2), and she hid them in her house. She told them:

Josh. 2:9 She said to the men: “I do know that Jehovah will give you the land and that the fear of you has fallen upon us. All the inhabitants of the land are disheartened because of you, 10 for we heard how Jehovah dried up the waters of the Red Sea before you when you left Egypt and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites, Sihon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction on the other side of the Jordan. 11 When we heard about it, we lost heart, and no one has any courage because of you, for Jehovah your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath. 12 Now, please, swear to me by Jehovah that, because I showed loyal love to you, you will also show loyal love to my father’s household; and you must give me a sign of good faith. 13 You must spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them, and you must save us from death.”

A short time later, when Joshua and his Israelite army were about enter Gibeonite territory (Josh.9), they, Gibeonite community,

"sent a delegation to Joshua at Gilgal to sue for peace. The Gibeonite ambassadors—dressed in worn-out garments and sandals and having burst, skin wine-bottles, worn-out sacks, and dry, crumbly bread—represented themselves as being from a distant land, hence not in the way of Israel’s conquests. They acknowledged Jehovah’s hand in what had earlier befallen Egypt and the Amorite kings Sihon and Og. But wisely they did not mention what had happened to Jericho and Ai, as such news could not have reached their “very distant land” before the supposed departure. Israel’s representatives examined and accepted the evidence and covenanted with them to let them live."

They told Joshua and his men:

Josh. 9:9 (...) “Your servants have come from a very distant land out of regard for the name of Jehovah your God, because we have heard about his fame and about all he did in Egypt 10 and about all he did to the two kings of the Amʹor·ites who were on the other side of the Jordan, King Sihon of Heshbon and King Og of Bashan, who was in Ashtaroth. 11 So our elders and all the inhabitants of our land told us, ‘Take provisions with you for the journey and go to meet them. Tell them: “We will be your servants; now make a covenant with us.”’ 12 This bread that we took as our provisions was still hot on the day we left our houses to come here to you. Now you can see it is dry and crumbly. 13 And these wineskins were new when we filled them, but now they have burst. And our garments and sandals have worn out because of the great length of the journey.”

Was it important to God that the Israelites use his personal name?
Why was it important for the Israelites to know and use Jehovah's personal name?
The personal name by which God wants us to know him identifies and distinguishes him from any other named God who is/was worshiped on the planet in all times and places.

The true servants of the Creator, Abraham and Moses and David and Jesus, DO NOT WORSHIP a nameless god. No one on earth should confuse a God with a real identity, one who is alive and does not compare to any other. It is not a title that can be applied to any god believed in the world that identifies him; THE PERSONAL NAME of Him does. The Creator is not just any named god.

The enemy of God wants to turn him into an unknown being, but God has made himself known, and even his name is named, and it will be, and all the earth will have to recognize his name and greatness very soon. Jehovah (JHVH) is His name.

Is. 42:8  I am Jehovah. That is my name;
I give my glory to no one else,
Nor my praise to graven images.
9 See, the first things have come to pass;
Now I am declaring new things.
Before they spring up, I tell you about them.”

He never said: my name is the Lord. His enemies hate His name.
 

Wrangler

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Which name do you advise that we use? I just say Father or Lord .
Me too, except it's LORD, which has no phonetic difference with capitalization.

The point is who is it that we call the singular being, Father? I advise what God said his personal name was Ex 3:15, YHWH.
 
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Jim B

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There are many requirements Rl, but the answer is yes. It is rather obvious that you have to be calling on the name of the true God, you aren't thinking one could be calling on baal and believe that Jehovah is going to give you salvation are you?
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Sorry, Robert, you are wrong.
 

RLT63

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Me too, except it's LORD, which has no phonetic difference with capitalization.

The point is who is it that we call the singular being, Father? I advise what God said his personal name was Ex 3:15, YHWH.
I agree
 

Wrangler

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NAUSEATING HOLY AUDACITY
It's kind of a works doctrine, isn't it?

I grew up being told in order to be right with God, not only did I have to go to confession, I had to ritually say certain prayers over and over again. Such as saying 4 of the Lord's Prayer and 3 Hail Mary's.

Ever say the Rosary? By ones' work of uttering these words in sequence repeatedly, comes the NAUSEATING AUDACITY of claiming greater holiness. Still, it goes back to the point I made in Post #229 ... For it begs the question, what purpose then, does Roman 10:13, serve (if there are no consequences for ongoing disobedience)?

Said differently, how could you even have a relationship with God - who explicitly says all who call out his name will be saved - yet you refuse to do it? What kind of principled stand is that? How could you possibly consider yourself saved, living in willful disobedience?
 

Bible Highlighter

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To all:

Today’s deception is that the Westcott and Hort text is somehow radically different than the Nestle and Aland NT Greek text.

I know I stated this before, but it needs to be said again (Because apparently it is not being received).

Some try to say that the Modern Bibles are not based on the Westcott and Hort text. Some will say this because our Modern Bibles are based on the Nestle and Aland New Testament Greek text.

But Textual Critic Eldon Jay Epp believes the the Nestle and Alan text is barely different than the Westcott and Hort text.

Here is a quote from Textual Critic Eldon Jay Epp:

“The thing to see is that the text of 100 years ago (i.e., in 1980, the text of 1881, Hort’s compilation) is barely different from the text being published as the 28th edition of Novum Testamentum Graece. To offer up-to-date evidence of this point, I have made a fresh comparison of the 1881 compilation and the current edition of the Nestle-Aland compilation,…”​

You can find out Eldon Jay Epp’s compilation study here:


But lets just say the Nestle and Aland is not based on the Westcott and Hort text (Which does not match the evidence we have), the Nestle and Aland text says right in the 27th edition that it was supervised by the Vatican.

full


full


So I am not sure how this helps a person defending the Modern Translations (Which was based on the Nestle and Aland supervised by Rome).

The Modern Bibles have been corrupted by Rome.

You can check out page 21 here of the 14 changes in Modern Bibles that favor the Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.keithpiper.org/storage/books/NIV-Omissions-Cimatu-7July2018-pdf.pdf
 
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