On Faith and Works

[slaney4]

The book of James is one of the most important topics to cover when it comes to faith and works. James is believed by many people to contradict Paul, especially in the book of Romans, making the case that (removed link)are an essential component to be the evidence of our faith.

While James writes that faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead, Paul states that he who does work will not be made righteous; however, those who do not work but believe in him who justifies the ungodly, their faith is counted as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5).

Both Paul and James become clear that they do not contradict each other but how do they agree without excluding one of these two concepts? Since both of them believe that grace comes through faith alone, works would not add to that according to James, who writes:

“You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

He presents the point that even demons believe in the existence of God, so how can works apart from faith be useless? Depending on how you interpret the context of what James says and how Abraham was justified by works, we can settle to a point with Paul. Whereas faith without works is dead only in the eyes of men, not in the eyes of God.

If that is the case, how is faith made evident according to what other parts of scripture says about the fruit of the spirit? Most people believe that the fruit of the spirit (or works) means to gradually abandon sin or, by having corresponding actions, to go along with our faith.

Be doers of the word and not hearers only who deceive themselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man viewing his natural face in a mirror.
-- James 1:22-23

One of the most common reasons why people believe you must still abandon sin is told in John’s epistle: “No one who abides in him makes a practice of sinning; for whoever is born of God does not sin; you cannot keep on sinning by being in him.” Since he appeared in order to take away our transgressions, there is no sin in our new creation that’s within us, but as for our mortal body, sin still exists daily; it’s part of our natural human tendency.

So works never involve deeds of the law as evidence of faith. Whether good works can signify our faith is another matter to look at further. As for our sinful nature, which has broken the laws of God, that is what the cross was for—to replace us from dying in the flesh—by his work alone, so we can live free according to the spirit.

If (removed) is applied to us, then how can the law itself ever negate self-righteous effort? For if you mix the law together, what grace could you receive if Christ didn’t cover it fully? By his atoning sacrifice, his death, after living a perfect life, was sufficient enough to cover the full penalty. What works can add any value to that establishment for us on earth? We were called to be like him through only one way that can grow. Therefore, we should always look to spread his word through the willingness of the holy spirit.

In free grace theology, contrary to lordship salvation (where one must submit to God), opposes that we must gradually obey the law through the process of sanctification.

We are to allow him to save us from those consequences. But in order that he will, how must we prove our belief for his word to reside in us?

No works ever lay the foundation of our faith; all works are as filthy rags, as stated in the book of Isaiah: “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like a polluted garment” (v. 64:6).

However, those without corresponding actions may have denied him by not living according to the heart of the gospel teachings. Only by the fruit of this spirit — love, peace, joy, kindness, patience and forbearance — can faith become evident (Galatians 5:22 etc.). Those are the corresponding points to what Paul and James taught on the doctrine of justification.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Works vs Faith debate is a misunderstanding of Paul in some respects. Paul spoke negatively of the Law in the sense that it reaffirmed the curse of Man's sin in the garden. Once having become a sinner, Man was banned from the garden.

The Law reaffirmed Man's ban from the Tree of Life--from henceforth no Man can obtain Eternal Life by his works, even if his works are pleasing to God. They are "as filthy rags" only in the sense that even good works have been contaminated by sin unless God mercifully sanitizes those works.

Under the Law of Moses God required works of Israel. It could not obtain for them Eternal Life, but they were in fact able to please God by them. The effect of this was that Israel was able, by their obedience, to show their faith. And like Abraham, showing their faith in this way they pleased God, enabling them to remain under the covenant of Law until Christ could come and complete their hope in his New Covenant.

To show this under the Law, Israel was banned from Eternal Life in several ways.
1) The Tabernacle/Temple provides curtains of separation between God and Israel.
2) Only the priests were allowed into the Tabernacle, indicating the people of Israel were not sufficiently sanctified to enter into God's direct presence.
3) The Sabbath laws indicated that the works of Israel were not alone sufficient to qualify for continuation in their covenant of Law. It was the works that God sanctioned that enabled Israel to be accepted in their contaminated, sinful state. And it was, of course, only Christ's works that tore the veil and enabled Israel to enter into the New Covenant and the hope of Eternal Life.

So, even under the Law, Israel was able to obey all of the requirements of the Law while at the same time relying, by faith, in the works of Christ to bring them Eternal Life. Works are vital to show our faith, but our faith obtains Eternal Life by trust only in the work of Christ on the cross.

As such, faith always is demonstrated by obedience to God's word, even though it alone does not obtain Salvation. It only obtains Salvation by exercising evidence of our faith in the works of Christ.

 

[nedsk]

The book of James is one of the most important topics to cover when it comes to faith and works. James is believed by many people to contradict Paul, especially in the book of Romans, making the case that (removed link)are an essential component to be the evidence of our faith.

While James writes that faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead, Paul states that he who does work will not be made righteous; however, those who do not work but believe in him who justifies the ungodly, their faith is counted as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5).

Both Paul and James become clear that they do not contradict each other but how do they agree without excluding one of these two concepts? Since both of them believe that grace comes through faith alone, works would not add to that according to James, who writes:

“You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

He presents the point that even demons believe in the existence of God, so how can works apart from faith be useless? Depending on how you interpret the context of what James says and how Abraham was justified by works, we can settle to a point with Paul. Whereas faith without works is dead only in the eyes of men, not in the eyes of God.

If that is the case, how is faith made evident according to what other parts of scripture says about the fruit of the spirit? Most people believe that the fruit of the spirit (or works) means to gradually abandon sin or, by having corresponding actions, to go along with our faith.


One of the most common reasons why people believe you must still abandon sin is told in John’s epistle: “No one who abides in him makes a practice of sinning; for whoever is born of God does not sin; you cannot keep on sinning by being in him.” Since he appeared in order to take away our transgressions, there is no sin in our new creation that’s within us, but as for our mortal body, sin still exists daily; it’s part of our natural human tendency.

So works never involve deeds of the law as evidence of faith. Whether good works can signify our faith is another matter to look at further. As for our sinful nature, which has broken the laws of God, that is what the cross was for—to replace us from dying in the flesh—by his work alone, so we can live free according to the spirit.

If (removed) is applied to us, then how can the law itself ever negate self-righteous effort? For if you mix the law together, what grace could you receive if Christ didn’t cover it fully? By his atoning sacrifice, his death, after living a perfect life, was sufficient enough to cover the full penalty. What works can add any value to that establishment for us on earth? We were called to be like him through only one way that can grow. Therefore, we should always look to spread his word through the willingness of the holy spirit.

In free grace theology, contrary to lordship salvation (where one must submit to God), opposes that we must gradually obey the law through the process of sanctification.

We are to allow him to save us from those consequences. But in order that he will, how must we prove our belief for his word to reside in us?

No works ever lay the foundation of our faith; all works are as filthy rags, as stated in the book of Isaiah: “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like a polluted garment” (v. 64:6).

However, those without corresponding actions may have denied him by not living according to the heart of the gospel teachings. Only by the fruit of this spirit — love, peace, joy, kindness, patience and forbearance — can faith become evident (Galatians 5:22 etc.). Those are the corresponding points to what Paul and James taught on the doctrine of justification.

The only contradiction between James and Paul is the one placed there by believers of sola fide. Scripture is quite clear faith is not sufficient for salvation.

 

[Muna]

Paul said in Romans 5:20 we have access by faith into this grace (through which he said his works were wrought) for example, in 1 Cr 15:10 He said, "I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me". In otherwords, Paul could "shew us his faith by his works, because of the grace of God was with him (through which he laboured). In James 2:20 he is specifically adressing the "o vain man" who boasts a faith (without the works to show for it) which faith James calls dead. And keeping in mind James is speaking to this "o vain man" (in respects to a faith without works) Paul also brings into view the grace of God which has not been in vain towards him sayin in 1 Cr 15:10 and his grace which was bestowed upon me was "not in vain". So the grace of God can be received by a man "in vain" in such a way that he too could be rightly called an "o vain man" as James calls him. James and Paul line up a little bit more agreeably between them in that manner I think. For example, in the one it says, James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? When we know its by that same faith we have access into the very grace (by which Paul laboured) doing his works. Who also said, 2 Cr 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. Again, the word vain between each (the o vain man, a dead faith, and the potential of the grace of God being received in vain) which appear to pertain to (in both places) to a manifested ineffectualness (is that even a word?) I don't know, but its at least the oposite of Paul shares with us here 1 Cr 15:10 "by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; (and so not ineffectual) "but I laboured more abundantly than they all" (which is crazy effectual) yet not I (as he clarifies giving the glory to God) but the grace of God which was with me."

Had Paul been an example of receiving the grace of God in vain, I would suspect the opposite would be true of him. Paul also could have probably been adressed as that "o vain man" who boasted a faith but with no works to show for it. And then Paul could not have said, "his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain" either.

I hope I put that right, but anything in my own words take with a grain of salt, because I am so bad at articulating things.

 

[PS95]

Whereas faith without works is dead only in the eyes of men, not in the eyes of God.

While it's true that men see works-I would not go so far as to say that God does not.
A true saving faith results in good works and obedience.
A fake faith doesn't obey- doesn't love others- doesn't have a changed heart.
It's a faith that works through love. Otherwise it's a dead faith.

 

[mailmandan]

The only contradiction between James and Paul is the one placed there by believers of sola fide. Scripture is quite clear faith is not sufficient for salvation.

The contradiction is placed there by works-salvationists. Faith in Jesus Christ is sufficient for salvation because the object of our faith (Christ's finished work of redemption) is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:22-26) No supplements needed. To reject faith in Jesus Christ as sufficient for salvation is to reject the object of our faith (Christ's finished work of redemption) as sufficient for salvation.

 

[nedsk]

The contradiction is placed there by works-salvationists. Faith in Jesus Christ is sufficient for salvation because the object of our faith (Christ's finished work of redemption) is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:22-26) No supplements needed. To reject faith in Jesus Christ as sufficient for salvation is to reject the object of our faith (Christ's finished work of redemption) as sufficient for salvation.

Then if no supplements are needed, how we behave is irrelevant to our salvation as faith alone (sola fide) is sufficient.

 

[mailmandan]

Then if no supplements are needed, how we behave is irrelevant to our salvation as faith alone (sola fide) is sufficient.

How believers behave stems from becoming new creations in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17) John drawa a contrast between children of God and children of the devil. (1 John 3:7-10) We see other contrasts throughout scripture as well. If someone claims to be a Christian but practicing sin is ther lifestyle or bent of life, then that person is deceived.

 

[nedsk]

How believers behave stems from becoming new creations in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17) John drawa a contrast between children of God and children of the devil. (1 John 3:7-10) We see other contrasts throughout scripture as well. If someone claims to be a Christian but practicing sin is ther lifestyle or bent of life, then that person is deceived.

They may be deceived but so what? It's not relevant.

Im not talking about people practicing or not practicing sin. That has nothing to do with what ive been saying. Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord Lord', will enter there kingdom of heaven but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father." Notice he didn't say "....only those that don't practice sin".

Look either works matter or they don't. If only faith that saves (sola fide) then what we do doesn't matter but that goes against what Jesus said. I think lots of people oppose this simply because they think it's a Catholic thing but Scripture and common sense says otherwise.

 

[mailmandan]

They may be deceived but so what? It's not relevant.
Im not talking about people practicing or not practicing sin. That has nothing to do with what ive been saying.

You mentioned behavior so what I shared was relevant.

Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord Lord', will enter there kingdom of heaven but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father."

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

We can see that these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 trusted in their works for salvation and did not believe in the Son for salvation (which is not the will of the Father) and also explains why Jesus never knew them.

Notice he didn't say "....only those that don't practice sin".

Jesus said to them, depart from me, you who practice lawlessness. (sin)

Look either works matter or they don't. If only faith that saves (sola fide) then what we do doesn't matter but that goes against what Jesus said.

Good works matter because they glorify God (Matthew 5:16) and are good and profitable to men (Titus 3:8) and demonstrate that our faith is alive in Christ. (Ephesians 2:5-10; James 2:14-26)

I think lots of people oppose this simply because they think it's a Catholic thing but Scripture and common sense says otherwise.

Catholics are not the only one's who teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.

 

[nedsk]

You mentioned behavior so what I shared was relevant.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

We can see that these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 trusted in their works for salvation and did not believe in the Son for salvation (which is not the will of the Father) and also explains why Jesus never knew them.

Jesus said to them, depart from me, you who practice lawlessness. (sin)

Good works matter because they glorify God (Matthew 5:16) and are good and profitable to men (Titus 3:8) and demonstrate that our faith is alive in Christ. (Ephesians 2:5-10; James 2:14-26)

Catholics are not the only one's who teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.

Nothing there says faith alone and AGAIN no one is saying works saves them. You really need to pay attention.

 

[mailmandan]

Nothing there says faith alone and AGAIN no one is saying works saves them. You really need to pay attention.

Faith is accounted for righteousness and God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6) Hence, faith alone. Justified by faith (Romans 5:1) plus what? Plus nothing. Hence, faith alone. Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) Hence, faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[nedsk]

Faith is accounted for righteousness and God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6) Hence, faith alone. Justified by faith (Romans 5:1) plus what? Plus nothing. Hence, faith alone. Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) Hence, faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.

Then if it's faith alone then how i behave is irrelevant.

 

[mailmandan]

Then if it's faith alone then how i behave is irrelevant.

How you behave is a reflection of the heart.In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

If you are relying on your best behavior to save you then you are trusting in works for salvation instead of Jesus Christ alone.

 

[nedsk]

How you behave is a reflection of the heart.In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

If you are relying on your best behavior to save you then you are trusting in works for salvation instead of Jesus Christ alone.

Where did I say works save anyone? Copy and paste where I said that. If you want stop making that claim. Why are you people so intellectually and theologically lazy? It's mind numbing.

I am going to say this again if you believe faith alone saves us then there should never be a need to utter any word about works. Feith without works is dead. Is faith alone (sola fide) was sufficient it wouldn't be dead with it works. Explain how a dead faith is salvific.

 

[mailmandan]

Where did I say works save anyone? I am going to say this again if you believe faith alone saves us then there should never be a need to utter any word about works. Feith without works is dead. Is faith alone (sola fide) was sufficient it wouldn't be dead with it works.

OXYMORON.

Explain how a dead faith is salvific.

Dead faith is not salvic. Dead faith is an empty/bare profession of faith that demonstrates its dead by producing no works. (James 2:14) Living faith is salvic. (Ephesians 2:5-8) Living faith demonstrates that its alive by producing good works. (Ephesions 2:10) Faith in Jesus Christ is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit.

 

[nedsk]

OXYMORON.

Dead faith is not salvic. Dead faith is an empty/bare profession of faith that demonstrates its dead by producing no works. (James 2:14) Living faith is salvic. (Ephesians 2:5-8) Living faith demonstrates that its alive by producing good works. (Ephesions 2:10) Faith in Jesus Christ is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit.

So people don't have a choice how they behave when they have faith correct? Faith causes works, correct?

 

[mailmandan]

So people don't have a choice how they behave when they have faith correct? Faith causes works, correct?

People always have a choice but people that are born of God are new creations in Christ. We've been changed! Works are produced from faith.

 

[nedsk]

People always have a choice but people that are born of God are new creations in Christ. We've been changed! Works are produced from faith.

What does that mean, they are a new creation? If they can choose then they can choose not to act, otherwise they couldn't be judged as we see in Matthew and the story of the sheep and goats. You can't just say new creation as if that answers the question.

 

[mailmandan]

What does that mean, they are a new creation? If they can choose then they can choose not to act, otherwise they couldn't be judged as we see in Matthew and the story of the sheep and goats. You can't just say new creation as if that answers the question.

Being a new creation in Christ signifies a transformation. Our previous moral and spiritual condition has passed away and our new life in Christ has begun through spiritual awakening that brings a new life. Do you see no difference between being born again and not being born again?