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Rapture Bound

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“Christian Deconversion”? – Part 1​


There are many professing Christians that I’ve encountered throughout the years that downplay the vast important of Biblical doctrine. They tell me that “salvation is not a matter of doctrine”. Can a genuine follower of Jesus Christ actually possess such a mindset?

Salvation certainly is a matter of doctrine, especially when we as followers of Christ must, and can only, point to the scriptures to provide the answer to life’s most important question that must be answer by all …”What must I do to be saved?”

“Christian” deconversion stories. Whether or not these professing Christians where ever genuine followers of Christ is of course an issue intrinsic to the issue of the eternal security of the believer [and can never, in my opinion, be settled on a subjective level since we cannot know with assurance if any person other than ourselves is, or ever was the genuine article].

Instead, the answer can only be found through the objective truths that the scriptures provide to the question, “Will any Holy Spirit regenerated person ever permanently renounce their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior [and/or the faith once delivered to the saints? [ Jude 1:3].

Contained within the many deconversion testimonies I’ve heard over the years, there are two tragic recurring common denominators that I’ve noticed. First, the virtual equating of allegiance to their particular church denomination [or group of people] with allegiance to their God. In other words, to depart from their particular religious organization = departing from their God. [i.e. – a person cannot possibly serve or walk with God apart from being attached to an organized church group].

Secondly, and intricately related to the first point, these “deconverters” make statements providing compelling evidence that they never had a firm grasp at all concerning the question, “what must I do to be saved”? Frequently they say that it was their water baptism that saved them, or their service to the Pastor, church etc., etc.

In other words, did these people ever truly believe that it is only “by grace through faith and not of works” that a person can be saved with such admissions? They often complain about their inability to have confidence in answering that question [when they were “Christians”] since there are so many conflicting opinions. Most say that they
had never even come to the assurance that God had forgiven them of all of their sins [one day they believe they are on the way to Heaven, the next they believe they are on their way to the Lake of Fire … depending on their behavior from day to day … so very sad indeed!].

It appears to me that they have little to no understanding of what Christ’s shed blood accomplished for all those who have placed all their hope, faith, and trust on His finished work … rather than even 1% of their own works for their justified status before God. It appears to me that no regenerated person will ever permanently renounce their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior [and/or the faith once delivered to the saints [Jude 1:3].

To further illustrate my points [although certainly not to provide compelling evidence for my position], consider the following excerpts taken from one of the many Christian deconversion websites entitled, “Graceful Atheist” :

“DECONVERSION FROM CHRISTIANITY”
A VERY COMMON MESSAGE
Atheism, Deconstruction, Deconversion, Humanism

A Deconversion Story [by David] :

These kinds of messages have become cliché, but I find the need to write it anyway. Mostly this is an attempt to communicate to my friends and family as succinctly but thoroughly as possible the what and the why of my deconversion from Christianity. This is also for those of you readers who have had doubts and have struggled to keep
them contained.

What I am

I am no longer a Christian. In the summer of 2015 after it became increasing more difficult to hold my beliefs against surmounting evidence to the contrary I admitted to myself I no longer believed. I was a Christian for approximately 27 years, until the Jenga tower of contradiction between belief and facts came crashing down. I could
no longer sustain the mental effort it required to maintain belief against the overwhelming lack of evidence for that belief.

I am an atheist. Others, wiser than I, have pointed out that this does not tell you very much about me. To say that I am not something is not very descriptive. The list of things I am not is infinite. But I am not afraid of this moniker. I am not a theist. This means I do not believe in God or gods. I do not believe in the supernatural of any kind. The natural is more than sufficient.

Which Faith?

I happened to grow up in the United States in a nominally Christian household. When I became a Christian in my late teens it was within the context of a culture soaked with Christian themes. But what if I had been born in Saudi Arabia? Wouldn’t I have become a Muslim? What about India? A Sikh or a Hindu? How can I honestly say I would
have become a Christian if I had been raised in a different culture. The answer is I can’t.

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Even within Christianity we have a tremendous amount of disagreement. Catholics and Protestants. Evangelical and Main liners. There are something like 2000 different Christian sects alone. As an evangelical we call many of them cults. But how do we determine what is a cult and what is gospel?

How does one determine whether one faith is more right than another? If your answer is the bible re-read the line about 2000 different sects of Christianity. Most of them use the same Christian bible.

Even within a narrow group like Evangelicals , who or what decides between two contradictory beliefs? Is pre-destination correct or is it human choice? Is baptism submersion or will a sprinkling do? Is it pure grace or good works that saves a person? I had strong opinions on
each of these as do those who would have disagreed with me. But there is no way to determine which is true and which is false.

It comes down to cultural microcosms. If you were raised Baptist, then pre-destination is true. If you were raise Pentecostal then speaking in tongues is true. All the while both groups point to the other with disdain.

It was when I began to look at what my in-group considered to be cults trying to understand why a person would believe these “crazy” things, that it occurred to me that they saw my beliefs as just as crazy. And atheists thought we were all crazy.”

“Is it possible for a Christian to convert to atheism?” <
>

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.”
 

marks

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In this way, the warning passages serve as one of the many means God employs in order to fulfill His promise to preserve all of His children. Fear shouldn't exclusively be perceived in a negative light. It can certainly be used as a positive instrument in preventing injury, whether it pertains to the physical, emotional, or spiritual realm.
"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord . . ."

God has used fear in me to capture my attention. I remember times of literally being struck with terror over some thing, and this being a means to show me the seriousness of my path.

I think these warnings are there to challenge us. Is this wrong thing I'm doing, is this because it's who I am? Or is this an aberation in me, that Jesus, hopefully with my cooperation, is working to remove? Because if that's who I am, I'm not born again.

But if Jesus is working into me His life, in renewing me, healing me, giving me self control, then let's get with it!!

Much love!
 

L.A.M.B.

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“Christian Deconversion”? – Part 1​


There are many professing Christians that I’ve encountered throughout the years that downplay the vast important of Biblical doctrine. They tell me that “salvation is not a matter of doctrine”. Can a genuine follower of Jesus Christ actually possess such a mindset?

Salvation certainly is a matter of doctrine, especially when we as followers of Christ must, and can only, point to the scriptures to provide the answer to life’s most important question that must be answer by all …”What must I do to be saved?”

“Christian” deconversion stories. Whether or not these professing Christians where ever genuine followers of Christ is of course an issue intrinsic to the issue of the eternal security of the believer [and can never, in my opinion, be settled on a subjective level since we cannot know with assurance if any person other than ourselves is, or ever was the genuine article].

Instead, the answer can only be found through the objective truths that the scriptures provide to the question, “Will any Holy Spirit regenerated person ever permanently renounce their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior [and/or the faith once delivered to the saints? [ Jude 1:3].

Contained within the many deconversion testimonies I’ve heard over the years, there are two tragic recurring common denominators that I’ve noticed. First, the virtual equating of allegiance to their particular church denomination [or group of people] with allegiance to their God. In other words, to depart from their particular religious organization = departing from their God. [i.e. – a person cannot possibly serve or walk with God apart from being attached to an organized church group].

Secondly, and intricately related to the first point, these “deconverters” make statements providing compelling evidence that they never had a firm grasp at all concerning the question, “what must I do to be saved”? Frequently they say that it was their water baptism that saved them, or their service to the Pastor, church etc., etc.

In other words, did these people ever truly believe that it is only “by grace through faith and not of works” that a person can be saved with such admissions? They often complain about their inability to have confidence in answering that question [when they were “Christians”] since there are so many conflicting opinions. Most say that they
had never even come to the assurance that God had forgiven them of all of their sins [one day they believe they are on the way to Heaven, the next they believe they are on their way to the Lake of Fire … depending on their behavior from day to day … so very sad indeed!].

It appears to me that they have little to no understanding of what Christ’s shed blood accomplished for all those who have placed all their hope, faith, and trust on His finished work … rather than even 1% of their own works for their justified status before God. It appears to me that no regenerated person will ever permanently renounce their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior [and/or the faith once delivered to the saints [Jude 1:3].

To further illustrate my points [although certainly not to provide compelling evidence for my position], consider the following excerpts taken from one of the many Christian deconversion websites entitled, “Graceful Atheist” :

“DECONVERSION FROM CHRISTIANITY”
A VERY COMMON MESSAGE
Atheism, Deconstruction, Deconversion, Humanism

A Deconversion Story [by David] :

These kinds of messages have become cliché, but I find the need to write it anyway. Mostly this is an attempt to communicate to my friends and family as succinctly but thoroughly as possible the what and the why of my deconversion from Christianity. This is also for those of you readers who have had doubts and have struggled to keep
them contained.

What I am

I am no longer a Christian. In the summer of 2015 after it became increasing more difficult to hold my beliefs against surmounting evidence to the contrary I admitted to myself I no longer believed. I was a Christian for approximately 27 years, until the Jenga tower of contradiction between belief and facts came crashing down. I could
no longer sustain the mental effort it required to maintain belief against the overwhelming lack of evidence for that belief.

I am an atheist. Others, wiser than I, have pointed out that this does not tell you very much about me. To say that I am not something is not very descriptive. The list of things I am not is infinite. But I am not afraid of this moniker. I am not a theist. This means I do not believe in God or gods. I do not believe in the supernatural of any kind. The natural is more than sufficient.

Which Faith?

I happened to grow up in the United States in a nominally Christian household. When I became a Christian in my late teens it was within the context of a culture soaked with Christian themes. But what if I had been born in Saudi Arabia? Wouldn’t I have become a Muslim? What about India? A Sikh or a Hindu? How can I honestly say I would
have become a Christian if I had been raised in a different culture. The answer is I can’t.

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Even within Christianity we have a tremendous amount of disagreement. Catholics and Protestants. Evangelical and Main liners. There are something like 2000 different Christian sects alone. As an evangelical we call many of them cults. But how do we determine what is a cult and what is gospel?

How does one determine whether one faith is more right than another? If your answer is the bible re-read the line about 2000 different sects of Christianity. Most of them use the same Christian bible.

Even within a narrow group like Evangelicals , who or what decides between two contradictory beliefs? Is pre-destination correct or is it human choice? Is baptism submersion or will a sprinkling do? Is it pure grace or good works that saves a person? I had strong opinions on
each of these as do those who would have disagreed with me. But there is no way to determine which is true and which is false.

It comes down to cultural microcosms. If you were raised Baptist, then pre-destination is true. If you were raise Pentecostal then speaking in tongues is true. All the while both groups point to the other with disdain.

It was when I began to look at what my in-group considered to be cults trying to understand why a person would believe these “crazy” things, that it occurred to me that they saw my beliefs as just as crazy. And atheists thought we were all crazy.”

“Is it possible for a Christian to convert to atheism?” <
>

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.”
Well said.
However can others see Christ in us aside from " our beliefs"?

What is the outward anointing that reveals unto others that we hold to and believe in Jesus ?

It is imperative that we all search out the scriptures daily for in them we will find Christ.

May we ever be searching to know his doctrine as opposed to our " denominal doctrines".
 

marks

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See my reply in post #7. It appears to me that your question is addressed in a response that I gave to another who asked questions that were essentially synonymous in nature with your question. I sincerely hope and pray that you do not buy into to the false teaching that believer's can obtain [or even worse - must obtain] sinless perfection during this lifetime.
Some do claim sinlessness, but on closer inspection you'll find that they don't classify all sin the same, that some sins are "excepted" from the standard.

For myself I think more in terms of we are either walking in the Spirit or walking according to flesh. If we are walking in the Spirit we are having a consistent walk without any awareness of sin. If we are walking according to flesh, I think we will be in sometimes spiritual and sometimes fleshy modes of thinking/acting. And all that is from fleshiness is sin. Only what is from our faith in Christ is not sin.

Much love!
 
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Grailhunter

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Doctrine definition
a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.
"the doctrine of predestination"

What does doctrine mean?
A doctrine is a set of beliefs. The word comes from the Latin doctor for “teacher,” so think of a doctrine is the teachings of a school, religion, or political group.

What is an example of doctrine
That which is taught; what is held, put forth as true, and supported by a teacher, a school, or a sect; a principle or position, or the body of principles, in any branch of knowledge; any tenet or dogma; a principle of faith; as, the doctrine of atoms; the doctrine of chances. The doctrine of gravitation.

In other words....this comes from people or a person or Christrian denominations. In Christianity it is an assessment of scriptures by people, to produce or standardize a belief. In the end it can represent popular beliefs. Beliefs, Truths, Facts.....Doctrine may not be facts. Doctrine may not be truths. Its intent is to promulgate beliefs. Something ....somebody.....wants you to believe....being true or false. Looking at the history of it, doctrines are not a reliable source for religious beliefs.

And the worst of them are associated with non-biblical words and phrases that are designed for easy remembrance...ie catchy theological word or phrases....Virgin Mary, immaculate conception, Trinity, Original Sin, Fornication.....LOL....Mmm good Mmm good, that is what campbell soup is Mmm good!
 
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Rapture Bound

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Well said.
However can others see Christ in us aside from " our beliefs"?

What is the outward anointing that reveals unto others that we hold to and believe in Jesus ?

It is imperative that we all search out the scriptures daily for in them we will find Christ.

May we ever be searching to know his doctrine as opposed to our " denominal doctrines".

The questions that you're asking will be answered in future posts on this topic ... this was part 1, there will be more to follow. I agree that we should be searching for scriptural truth, as opposed to denominational creeds, but this certainly doesn't imply that all denominational doctrines are unscriptural. In the end, we will all individually be held accountable before God for what we embrace as Biblical truth, as well as what we proclaim as Biblical truth to others.
 
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L.A.M.B.

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The questions that you're asking will be answered in future posts on this topic ... this was part 1, there will be more to follow. I agree that we should be searching for scriptural truth, as opposed to denominational creeds, but this certainly doesn't imply that all denominational doctrines are unscriptural. In the end, we will all individually be held accountable before God for what we embrace as Biblical truth, as well as what we proclaim as Biblical truth to others.
Thank you.
Looking forward to all threads and posts that correctly divide the word of truth and edify the body of Christ !
 

Rapture Bound

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Some do claim sinlessness, but on closer inspection you'll find that they don't classify all sin the same, that some sins are "excepted" from the standard.

For myself I think more in terms of we are either walking in the Spirit or walking according to flesh. If we are walking in the Spirit we are having a consistent walk without any awareness of sin. If we are walking according to flesh, I think we will be in sometimes spiritual and sometimes fleshy modes of thinking/acting. And all that is from fleshiness is sin. Only what is from our faith in Christ is not sin.

Much love!

"Some do claim sinlessness, but on closer inspection you'll find that they don't classify all sin the same, that some sins are "excepted" from the standard."

Yeah, I know the drill very well. They all have their individual lists in which they believe to be the "standard" to 'live up to' in order to 'remain saved' ... and if they successfully live up to it, that is, if they 'check off all their boxes,' then they assume that they will make 'the final cut' that's needed to remain on "team Heaven" - lol. The major problem with this kind of mindset is they can never possibly attain the assurance that they will make it to Heaven, since none of them actually knows what God's 'checklist' looks like ... sorry, but I'll opt for the free gift of "option B" - the righteousness of Jesus Christ freely credited to my account - Praise God!!
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Just to add a couple other thoughts. I do truly understand your concerns here ... they are indeed valid. You simply don't want me leaving any type of impression that the salvation message promoted within Mormonism is what the true followers of Jesus Christ embrace. So, in that sense, you certainly did the right thing by making this clear to anyone viwing my thread ... thank you my friend. The Mormons have a false gospel due to the fact that they clearly reject the deity of Jesus Christ = I would never endorse the message of salvation promoted by Mormonism or ay other organization that I believe to be a form of the many forms of counterfeit Christianity.
Actual “Mormon” here, only one on this site:

Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God. He is God. My Savior, my King, and without Him I wouldn’t be here at all.
 
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Rapture Bound

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Actual “Mormon” here, only one on this site:

Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God. He is God. My Savior, my King, and without Him I wouldn’t be here at all.

"Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God" ... "divine" with a lower case "d" ... why is that???
 

Rapture Bound

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Actual “Mormon” here, only one on this site:

Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God. He is God. My Savior, my King, and without Him I wouldn’t be here at all.

Why do I believe that Mormonism propagates a counterfeit form of Christianity. Well, for starters, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) believes in baptismal regeneration. Therefore, they reject that justification, or right standing before God, comes by grace through faith alone in Christ's atoning work ... apart from works such as water baptism. [Ephesians 2:8-9; John 3:16; Titus 3:5]. Now, I'm not saying that you as an individual necessarily believe in that heresy, but it simply makes no sense to me why any person would want to identify themselves with a religion that rejects the only means in which a person can be saved.
 
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Grailhunter

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Why do I believe that Mormonism propagates a counterfeit form of Christianity. Well, for starters, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) believes in baptismal regeneration. Therefore, they reject that justification, or right standing before God, comes by grace through faith alone in Christ's atoning work ... apart from works such as water baptism. [Ephesians 2:8-9; John 3:16; Titus 3:5]. Now, I'm not saying that you as an individual necessarily believe in that heresy, but it simply makes no sense to me why any person would want to identify themselves with a religion that rejects the only means in which a person can be saved.

Jane can answer this more accurately than I but there are 30,000 plus Protestant denominations and some believe in Baptismal regeneration ....some believe that you come up out of the water a new person with no sin.

And from there our sins are between us and Christ.

Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ in the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38
Baptism for the remittance of sins goes all the way back to John the Baptist.

And a lot of them see that water Baptism is part of the salvation process....
Then some ask the questions......
Can you be saved without repentance?
Can you be saved without Baptism?
Can you be saved without participating in the Bread and Wine Ritual?
Can you be saved without receiving the Holy Spirit through tongues?

Of course believing that Yeshua is the Son of God, a full fledged God, Messiah Savior is fundamental. Without that salvation does not even begin.

Protestants can call each other heretics but with so many Protestant denominations it is whole lot mud slinging.
 

Rapture Bound

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Jane can answer this more accurately than I but there are 30,000 plus Protestant denominations and some believe in Baptismal regeneration ....some believe that you come up out of the water a new person with no sin.

And from there our sins are between us and Christ.

Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ in the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38
Baptism for the remittance of sins goes all the way back to John the Baptist.

And a lot of them see that water Baptism is part of the salvation process....
Then some ask the questions......
Can you be saved without repentance?
Can you be saved without Baptism?
Can you be saved without participating in the Bread and Wine Ritual?
Can you be saved without receiving the Holy Spirit through tongues?

Of course believing that Yeshua is the Son of God, a full fledged God, Messiah Savior is fundamental. Without that salvation does not even begin.

Protestants can call each other heretics but with so many Protestant denominations it is whole lot mud slinging.

"Protestants can call each other heretics but with so many Protestant denominations it is whole lot mud slinging."

So I guess there's no such thing as a heresies after all? Am I to suppose to believe that the truth doesn't exist since there are so many opinions over the question, "what must I do to be saved? Some call it "mud slinging", while others call it contending for the faith once delivered to the saints [Jude 1:3].
 
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