Once OSAS Always OSAS

[WalkInLight]

The title speaks for itself.

With very very few exceptions, and there is one on this site, no one can deny it.

A problem with absolutes. They describe something that must be true from all angles, something that cannot shift or change.
Everything in our lives is dependent on one thing, our perception. Once that shifts, everything is up for grabs.

Once saved always saved is an absolutest statement. In the eternal, speaking of the elect, it is a true statement.
But take Judas. The apostles assumed he was saved, appointed as one of the founders of the church, literally, a close follower of Jesus.

Satan was an angel before the Lord, but fell. A large section of heavenly host also fell with him.
For love to be real, it needs to show itself beyond ideas into actual action, which is why the cross is the symbol of eternal love.
Scripture goes so far as to say Jesus was perfected by His sacrifice.

8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through the things he suffered.
9 And by being perfected in this way, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
10 and he was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 5:8-10

How do we know love exists or is real? By its demonstration. The difference between an impulse or a nice feeling and love,
love results in actions, the two echo their reality.

So OSAS is declaring something over someones life before the treasure within has actually been shown to be real.
Many OSAS followers will say the true believers show their faith in their actions as fruit.

But by declaring this they are saying OSAS is meaningless, because salvation is only real if it is real in someones life.
So it is not an absolute based on a faith declaration, but only when this flows through to their life.

Often when a believer falls away, they say they never had faith because they fell away. So what security is there in the
statement of OSAS if you cannot tell unless fruit shows in their lives? And thats the point, scripture does not support
or spiritual life OSAS as an absolute or a rock upon which to secure ones life. Only walking in faith with Jesus does, showing
the fruit of love working out through daily life.

God bless you

 

[robert derrick]

Hi @robert derrick.
John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

So I wonder if both ideas are correct. Since I also find this:

The real devil in the doctrine of OSAS is not so much eternal security, but in separating being saved and justified by Jesus Christ, from any works we do within our own hearts and lives.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

There is eternal assurance in Christ, but OSAS makes it unconditional by removing the big 'if' from Scripture pertaining to salvation and justification by Jesus Christ.

If we abide in Him, we shall never perish. If not, we become a dead branch cut off from the true Vine.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

They also change 'if' we sin, to 'when' they sin. And all such sinning is already forgiven anyway.

Hi @robert derrick.So I'm left wondering how you interpret John 10:28

I think the way I interpret it is that once God has chosen a person to save them, they cannot perish, but can sin and need to be delivered to repentance.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I and my Father are one.

The error many Christians make with this Scripture, is that we are being held in God's hands and carried around like helpless babies carried across the finish line.

We are walking hand in hand with Him and so walking as He walked on our own two feet. We walk and run with Him. We are not riding piggy back.

If we take our hand from His, to go sin with the devil and world for a season, then He lets us fall back into that world of sinners, to become one of them again, but now against having known the Lord.

No Christian 'accidentally' sins with the devil, while still holding the hand of Jesus and the Head of the body.

We must shake His hand free, despise the Spirit of His grace, and tread upon His blood to sin with the devil against God.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
We simply let go of His hand, to go and sin with the devil for a time, instead of walking onward with Jesus faithfully.

But, once again, the real problem with OSAS is separating being saved and justified, from being a doers of His word, and not a hearer only.

 

[Ancient]

This may be of some help

Shalom

 

[robert derrick]

You receive eternal life when Jesus and God resurrect your body and bless you with eternal life in heaven. Not until then have you received eternal life. We are all appointed to death still. Can you live forever in the here and now?

We obtain eternal salvation, if we obey Jesus unto the end. All souls sinning are still appointed to death, along with all mortal bodies.

We are living spiritually alive forever here and now, if we are walking with Him in the Light.

No souls sinning here and now have the eternal life of Christ, because they have not Jesus nor the fellowship of His Spirit.

And here and now is all that matters to God. Yesterday is past, and tomorrow may not come.

 

[robert derrick]

.
.
"Far too gone"

Your arrogant judgment seems to know no bounds.
.
.

No, you can ask her yourself. She has absolutely no love lost for your OSAS sinning.

And this thread is about Once OSAS Always OSAS, and far to gone to repent of sinning and stop being a sinner naming the name of Christ.

All I do is take people at their word. I just dispense with the fluffy stuff around it.

The sister talks plainly, like Paul, with no need to decipher her meaning.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes the eternal life is a promise, but not something received yet. So while I don't say I am saved, I have hope for that promise. So I posted a comment in post #37 regarding that promise.

There is no obtaining eternal salvation unto the end, until the end.

However, we can say we are being saved and justified by Christ, so long as we are doing His word, and not hearing only.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

By grace we are being saved through the faith of Jesus, and by grace we shall be saved at the end, if we continue doing the faith of Jesus unto the end.

I would say I am being saved by Jesus, and I have a sure hope in Him, to be saved forever at the end of this life.

Eternal assurance in Christ is always conditioned by abiding in Christ and walking as He walked.

So long as I am not now sinning with the devil, neither lusting in the heart, nor doing so with the body, I know I have eternal life and being saved and justified by His grace.

And I'm not sinning right now.

 

[robert derrick]

I rest my case!

good day sir

Once OSAS Always OSAS

 

[robert derrick]

I was simply taught that to get rid of sin, all I had to do was "trust in the finished work of the cross". Even though it sounded good at the time along with many other soothing phrases, I never made it the core of my beliefs.

I was making room for an exception in your case, and now I see it is not necessary. You never swallowed OSAS whole. You never learned to celebrate grace while sinning with the devil.

Once OSAS Always OSAS.

It takes a combination of spiritual delusion, Scriptural destruction, and searing of conscience to receive OSAS into the heart and live as though it were true.

I think OSAS once appealed to me because I felt deeply unsure of whether I could overcome the sin in my life. Many teachers and preachers reassured me that I didn't have to and that if I just relaxed and trusted in Jesus enough, I'd become a better Christian through that.

And stop bothering them with all that sin-conscience stuff.

Like spiritual hypnotists, they just want everyone to 'relax' and trust them.

Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits.

Anyway, there is being mistaken and then there is being under a strong delusion. I see repeating osas phrases over and over in the face of clear non-osas Scriptural logic as being under that delusion.

They do have their mantra, and they love to use very exciting and outstanding fair words to teach it, such as exciting, outstanding, incredible, awesome, fabulous, etc...with exclamation points to prove it.

And it's a strong one because it rids believers of their obligation to be holy and overcome sin. If sin is just the air we breathe and it can't be overcome, then there's no reason to put in the effort and dying to self thats involved with getting rid of it all.

Well done sister. That is a perfect analogy I have been looking for, to describe how they declare doing righteousness is perfectionism, in order to be excused from doing righteousness, since we are all 'imperfect.

And you are not far off. They do preach a sin nature as a spirit in the seed of man. And that all earth became corrupted by one man sinning on earth, and so that sin spirit is in the very air we breathe. And since the natural body is only mortal because of the soul sinning, then being mortal becomes sinful.

And voila! Everyone still in mortal flesh is a sinner for life, without any possibility of not sinning. They are not just teaching against not sinning, they are teaching against not sinning at any time.

Good job. Thanks. I'll be using this with creds to you.

 

[robert derrick]

A problem with absolutes. They describe something that must be true from all angles, something that cannot shift or change.
Everything in our lives is dependent on one thing, our perception. Once that shifts, everything is up for grabs.

Once saved always saved is an absolutest statement. In the eternal, speaking of the elect, it is a true statement.
But take Judas. The apostles assumed he was saved, appointed as one of the founders of the church, literally, a close follower of Jesus.

Satan was an angel before the Lord, but fell. A large section of heavenly host also fell with him.
For love to be real, it needs to show itself beyond ideas into actual action, which is why the cross is the symbol of eternal love.
Scripture goes so far as to say Jesus was perfected by His sacrifice.

8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through the things he suffered.
9 And by being perfected in this way, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
10 and he was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 5:8-10

How do we know love exists or is real? By its demonstration. The difference between an impulse or a nice feeling and love,
love results in actions, the two echo their reality.

So OSAS is declaring something over someones life before the treasure within has actually been shown to be real.
Many OSAS followers will say the true believers show their faith in their actions as fruit.

But by declaring this they are saying OSAS is meaningless, because salvation is only real if it is real in someones life.
So it is not an absolute based on a faith declaration, but only when this flows through to their life.

Often when a believer falls away, they say they never had faith because they fell away. So what security is there in the
statement of OSAS if you cannot tell unless fruit shows in their lives? And thats the point, scripture does not support
or spiritual life OSAS as an absolute or a rock upon which to secure ones life. Only walking in faith with Jesus does, showing
the fruit of love working out through daily life.

God bless you

My judgments are based upon my observations. And even the exception to Once OSAS Always OSAS, that I was making allowance for, has said she never made it a core belief, but only hoped it was true. She got fed up with hoping to deny godliness, and just started doing it by faith.

She learned our part is indeed doing the word, not just hoping for it to appear someday in her life.

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

How do we know love exists or is real? By its demonstration. The difference between an impulse or a nice feeling and love,
love results in actions, the two echo their reality.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

So OSAS is declaring something over someones life before the treasure within has actually been shown to be real.
Many OSAS followers will say the true believers show their faith in their actions as fruit.

OSAS talks plenty about 'showing' love and fruit, so long as it has nothing to do with being saved and sanctified by faith alone. No showing of works has anything to do with it.

And so, all their works and fruit become for show only. It has nothing to do with their souls.

Often when a believer falls away, they say they never had faith because they fell away. So what security is there in the
statement of OSAS if you cannot tell unless fruit shows in their lives? And thats the point, scripture does not support
or spiritual life OSAS as an absolute or a rock upon which to secure ones life. Only walking in faith with Jesus does, showing
the fruit of love working out through daily life.

God bless you

True. And we can only walk with Jesus by grace through His faith.

Pharisees keep the law of Christ without the Spirit of Christ within, and OSAS keeps nothing by their own faith alone.

 

[WalkInLight]

My judgments are based upon my observations. And even the exception to Once OSAS Always OSAS, that I was making allowance for, has said she never made it a core belief, but only hoped it was true. She got fed up with hoping to deny godliness, and just started doing it by faith.

She learned our part is indeed doing the word, not just hoping for it to appear someday in her life.

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.



My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.



OSAS talks plenty about 'showing' love and fruit, so long as it has nothing to do with being saved and sanctified by faith alone. No showing of works has anything to do with it.

And so, all their works and fruit become for show only. It has nothing to do with their souls.



True. And we can only walk with Jesus by grace through His faith.

Pharisees keep the law of Christ without the Spirit of Christ within, and OSAS keeps nothing by their own faith alone.

OSAS is an interesting absolute. Because it's an absolute you get believers who are followers and some reprobates claiming the same reality. This complete inconsistency is the issue, it destroys everything of value in the Kingdom.

If a believer can be an unrepentant mass murderer or a loving old granny, it has no meaning or value and deserves to be trampled under foot for loosing it's saltiness...

 

[WalkInLight]

I rest my case!

good day sir

Dear EG,

You appear not to be able to answer the questions about heaven. Is this because OSAS only works with generalities and not Jesus?

Dangerous for our souls to dismiss sin, hate, unforgiveness as things we can live with and know Christ.

I have already had people show anger inappropriately miss reading simple scripture which suggests their souls are not at peace or illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

God bless you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, thank you for giving some Scripture. Let's reason together.

You said you can't overcome sin. But that isn't true according to Scripture.

1 Peter 4:1-2

Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

Also, there is John 9:31 and 1 John 3:6

It is true that we are saved by grace through faith and its not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8).

Remember Paul, though.

Romans 6:15

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

But what does the Bible say grace teaches us to do?

Titus 2: 11-13

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


I do not trust myself to make it into heaven. Jesus' blood cleanses us from our past sins, otherwise none of us would make it. But by his grace, Im learning to deny ungodliness. He promises to give us a way of escape from temptation.

And good works are what we are meant to do as believers, not self righteousness. We are not under the law of Moses. But we are under the law of Christ who commanded us to love one another.

Please consider this Scripture.

Titus 2:13-14
New King James Version

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

When we say me me me and not God God God,

we need to rethink our repentance. Because we are still self focused, we have not yet become as the tax collector. We are more like the pharisee.

you want to pump your chest, feel free, I will give it all to God

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dear EG,

You appear not to be able to answer the questions about heaven. Is this because OSAS only works with generalities and not Jesus?

what questions about heaven?

the only people who will see heaven are those saved by grace through faith not works.

Dangerous for our souls to dismiss sin, hate, unforgiveness as things we can live with and know Christ.

I have already had people show anger inappropriately miss reading simple scripture which suggests their souls are not at peace or illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

God bless you

I have not dismissed sin as these people do, watering down the law and claiming they no longer sin, it’s all Christ my friend. If our eye is not on him, we are not walking, if our eye is on how good we think we are, and walking around doing what we can to be good, our focus is on self not God

Thats what is dangerous,. The pharisee thought he knew God, Thats why he crucified Christ, when he asked them, they claimed they have kept the law. Just like people do here.
Jesus told them they did not keep the law and they killed him for it,
These people do not think they would do, that, yet look what they do to people who call them out for claiming sinless perfection.

 

[dev553344]

The real devil in the doctrine of OSAS is not so much eternal security, but in separating being saved and justified by Jesus Christ, from any works we do within our own hearts and lives.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

There is eternal assurance in Christ, but OSAS makes it unconditional by removing the big 'if' from Scripture pertaining to salvation and justification by Jesus Christ.

If we abide in Him, we shall never perish. If not, we become a dead branch cut off from the true Vine.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

They also change 'if' we sin, to 'when' they sin. And all such sinning is already forgiven anyway.



And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I and my Father are one.

The error many Christians make with this Scripture, is that we are being held in God's hands and carried around like helpless babies carried across the finish line.

We are walking hand in hand with Him and so walking as He walked on our own two feet. We walk and run with Him. We are not riding piggy back.

If we take our hand from His, to go sin with the devil and world for a season, then He lets us fall back into that world of sinners, to become one of them again, but now against having known the Lord.

No Christian 'accidentally' sins with the devil, while still holding the hand of Jesus and the Head of the body.

We must shake His hand free, despise the Spirit of His grace, and tread upon His blood to sin with the devil against God.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
We simply let go of His hand, to go and sin with the devil for a time, instead of walking onward with Jesus faithfully.

But, once again, the real problem with OSAS is separating being saved and justified, from being a doers of His word, and not a hearer only.

To be in God's hand means also that if we should fall he will guide us back to him. He chastises those he loves. And I think that is the point perhaps.

 

[WalkInLight]

what questions about heaven?

the only people who will see heaven are those saved by grace through faith not works.

I have not dismissed sin as these people do, watering down the law and claiming they no longer sin, it’s all Christ my friend. If our eye is not on him, we are not walking, if our eye is on how good we think we are, and walking around doing what we can to be good, our focus is on self not God

Thats what is dangerous,. The pharisee thought he knew God, Thats why he crucified Christ, when he asked them, they claimed they have kept the law. Just like people do here.
Jesus told them they did not keep the law and they killed him for it,
These people do not think they would do, that, yet look what they do to people who call them out for claiming sinless perfection.

How would you describe the cause of sin in man?
And how would you say we are going to be perfect with Christ on the new earth?

The answer to this question actually dictates our theology and walk with Jesus.
Sometimes we end up discussing things with others which are actually from different root beliefs so are simply the conclusion
of our different world views. The pharisees did not agree with Jesus because they said he blasphemed the Lord by claiming what he did.

If Jesus was not God, they were right, except if He was who He said he was, they were committing sin.
I know we can end up being guilty of the same problem, so I hope, in grace and love we can explore common issues.

God bless you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How would you describe the cause of sin in man?

selfishness. thats why it is called the flesh. It is self seeking

And how would you say we are going to be perfect with Christ on the new earth?

In eternmity future? We will have seen God how he is.. And will NEVER seek to serve self again.

The answer to this question actually dictates our theology and walk with Jesus.
Sometimes we end up discussing things with others which are actually from different root beliefs so are simply the conclusion
of our different world views. The pharisees did not agree with Jesus because they said he blasphemed the Lord by claiming what he did.

If Jesus was not God, they were right, except if He was who He said he was, they were committing sin.
I know we can end up being guilty of the same problem, so I hope, in grace and love we can explore common issues.

God bless you

They also rejected Christ because he said all their hard work at keeping the law could not save them. In their mind, because they rejected the true gospel. and misunderstood the law.. He could not be the Christ. because the Christ would praise them not condemn them

 

[WalkInLight]

Is sin an absolute?

Some believe being human is to be sinful. They put Jesus therefore as never being human, so could be sinless.
If being human is not sinful, what then causes sinful behaviour?
If thoughts are sinful, what thoughts and how is a thought ok and another one sinful?

Scripture gives us a hierarchy of sin,

each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
James 1:14-15

Jesus described thoughts as the things that make us unclean, but not sinful

For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'
Mark 7:21-23

Sin are the actions which are children of our evil desires. If one wants to changes our sinful behaviour
we have to change our response to desires, which have become evil in their focus.
Unfortunately some believe all desires are evil, which is another form of saying being human is sinful.
A common idea is sexual attraction is original sin. Paul spoke about people burning for others, and
it was better to be married than to burn.

But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
1 Cor 7:9

Why does any of this matter? Holiness, our consciences, a desire to walk like Jesus and follow.
Some define sin as merely the wrong attitude to something. So fear can become a sin, as John writes

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18

John in revelation talked about those who will not enter heaven and put among them the cowardly

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death
Rev 21:8

Does this mean those with phobias, anxiousness are sinful and cast out? Or is John meaning those who deny Jesus
when faced with death and destruction or persecution and betray their brothers and sisters, which the readers at the
time of John would know about.

So we cannot talk about Jesus, righteousness, holiness and perfection without addressing these issues, because they are
actually part of our everyday experience.

God bless you

 

[WalkInLight]

selfishness. thats why it is called the flesh. It is self seeking

In eternmity future? We will have seen God how he is.. And will NEVER seek to serve self again.


They also rejected Christ because he said all their hard work at keeping the law could not save them. In their mind, because they rejected the true gospel. and misunderstood the law.. He could not be the Christ. because the Christ would praise them not condemn them

"The cause of sin in man is selfishness." your proposal

I would like to test this with a few perspectives.
It is selfish to desire to be saved, to have peace, to be loved, to have security, food, health, to be blessed.
King David wrote lots of Psalms asking God for blessing on himself and not judgement, because he was faithful and
a righteous man doing Gods will. I would suggest the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord, which is very selfish.

So I would suggest self interest by itself is not sin, or the cause of sin.
Scripture appears to say it is sinful for self to dominate over others for selfs benefit.

This is referred to as selfish ambition, or self promotion.
Condemning "I" misses the gospel where Jesus values each individual to make them His brother and sister in faith.
One major failure in ministry is people not listening to their needs, as well as others, so literally burning out, as if
their destruction brings blessing to others. Unless we are lights we do not shine, a dimmed empty light is no use
to anyone.

The command to love your neighbour as yourself, for those who do not listen or care about themselves is actually
to not care about anyone. The command only makes sense if you have a good sense of self, love and life. It is
from strength because of what Jesus has literally done in us that we can minister and help others. A broken
lost counsellor will just simply lose others who are equally lost.

God bless you

 

[Wynona]

When we say me me me and not God God God,

we need to rethink our repentance. Because we are still self focused, we have not yet become as the tax collector. We are more like the pharisee.

you want to pump your chest, feel free, I will give it all to God

Who is saying me me me? You couldn't have got that from reading my response.

You mentioned the tax collector and the pharisee. But its funny you mention that.

The pharisee was thankful he wasn't like other men.

Sometimes OSAS supporters get a similar attitude where they say, "Thank God Im not like that person over there trusting in their own salvation."

Nevermind that its a false accusation. If you really have the truth and Im in error, you would be restoring me gently (Galations 6:1).

If the Bible showed me today that OSAS was true or that good works was falling away from grace, I'd repent and admit that I was wrong. Are you willing to be wrong about something if it's in the Word of God?

 

[Wynona]

"The cause of sin in man is selfishness." your proposal

I would like to test this with a few perspectives.
It is selfish to desire to be saved, to have peace, to be loved, to have security, food, health, to be blessed.
King David wrote lots of Psalms asking God for blessing on himself and not judgement, because he was faithful and
a righteous man doing Gods will. I would suggest the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord, which is very selfish.

So I would suggest self interest by itself is not sin, or the cause of sin.
Scripture appears to say it is sinful for self to dominate over others for selfs benefit.

This is referred to as selfish ambition, or self promotion.
Condemning "I" misses the gospel where Jesus values each individual to make them His brother and sister in faith.
One major failure in ministry is people not listening to their needs, as well as others, so literally burning out, as if
their destruction brings blessing to others. Unless we are lights we do not shine, a dimmed empty light is no use
to anyone.

The command to love your neighbour as yourself, for those who do not listen or care about themselves is actually
to not care about anyone. The command only makes sense if you have a good sense of self, love and life. It is
from strength because of what Jesus has literally done in us that we can minister and help others. A broken
lost counsellor will just simply lose others who are equally lost.

God bless you

I agree with this. If all self interest was bad, why are there rewards in heaven? Why would heaven even be a thing?