Once OSAS Always OSAS

[BarneyFife]

So I don’t think converted is the best word to use there.

.
.
You have me at a definite disadvantage. It appears that, of the most popular English translations, only the King James and the Catholic Douay-Rheims use the word "converted." I only just very recently realized the link between the two verses and didn't take the time to study it thoroughly, thereby relying completely on the veracity of the King James to render the word "converted" correctly.

I'm not a KJV-only-ist, but I do prefer and admire it (just being honest), generally speaking, so I'm reluctant to say they have erred here. Not that I believe they were incapable of erring, but I certainly wouldn't use those two verses to argue against eternal security again until I had done a lot more studying.

I'd say this is a point for you, Sis. Although I'm quite certain you're not in the least bit interested in points.
.
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[Eternally Grateful]

"The cause of sin in man is selfishness." your proposal

I would like to test this with a few perspectives.
It is selfish to desire to be saved, to have peace, to be loved, to have security, food, health, to be blessed.

This is how God made us, He made us to GIVE US THESE THINGS. When we turned from him in sin, WE LOST THESE THINGS.

since this is HOW GOD MADE US, we spend a lifetime of trying to replace God and getting these things on our own. This is selfishness.

God telling us HE WANTS TO GIVE US THESE THINGS is not selfish. It is being humble. it is saying God I can;t do it. I must rely on you. so I am on my knees calling out to you to have mery on me a sinner.

King David wrote lots of Psalms asking God for blessing on himself and not judgement, because he was faithful and
a righteous man doing Gods will. I would suggest the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord, which is very selfish.

So I would suggest self interest by itself is not sin, or the cause of sin.
Scripture appears to say it is sinful for self to dominate over others for selfs benefit.

This is referred to as selfish ambition, or self promotion.
Condemning "I" misses the gospel where Jesus values each individual to make them His brother and sister in faith.
One major failure in ministry is people not listening to their needs, as well as others, so literally burning out, as if
their destruction brings blessing to others. Unless we are lights we do not shine, a dimmed empty light is no use
to anyone.

The command to love your neighbour as yourself, for those who do not listen or care about themselves is actually
to not care about anyone. The command only makes sense if you have a good sense of self, love and life. It is
from strength because of what Jesus has literally done in us that we can minister and help others. A broken
lost counsellor will just simply lose others who are equally lost.

God bless you

selfishness is putting your needs above another's needs..

we love BECAUSE GOD FIRST LOVES US

the only love an unsaved person can give is selfish love.. Because they have yet to experience the love of God.

God fills our tanks. to excess. we take this excess and give or share it with others. Thats why God gets the credit not us

When I rely on God to save me. I am nt putting mny needs above anothers. I am calling out to God that I am hopless and helpless

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who is saying me me me? You couldn't have got that from reading my response.

Well I did. You should ask yourself why I got that from you post

You mentioned the tax collector and the pharisee. But its funny you mention that.

The pharisee was thankful he wasn't like other men.

Sometimes OSAS supporters get a similar attitude where they say, "Thank God Im not like that person over there trusting in their own salvation."

The tax collector spoke of him not beling like the sinner

You wont find an OSAS person praising God he is not like the sinner, he will confess his sin (if he has sincerely repented)

Nevermind that its a false accusation. If you really have the truth and Im in error, you would be restoring me gently (Galations 6:1).

If the Bible showed me today that OSAS was true or that good works was falling away from grace, I'd repent and admit that I was wrong. Are you willing to be wrong about something if it's in the Word of God?

I have been proven wrong a few times

But if you want to prove me wrong about eternal security. You have to prove to me that after God saves me, I must now save myself. That after being found in the spirit (faith) I must perfect my sealvation in the flesh (works)

of you can do this. I will be open.

Are you open to the fact that you could be wrong?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree with this. If all self interest was bad, why are there rewards in heaven? Why would heaven even be a thing?

Rewards are given freely for work we do.

If you look in scripture. you will see Gods people do not work for rewards. Even our crowns we lay back to the feet of Jesus.

I do not work to earn. I work because I what I have been given is fae more precious and valuable than any reward in heaven could possible be. Eternal life. Based not on my worthyness (I am not worthy of anythign but hell) but on Gods mercy through his blood.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

.
.
You have me at a definite disadvantage. It appears that, of the most popular English translations, only the King James and the Catholic Douay-Rheims use the word "converted." I only just very recently realized the link between the two verses and didn't take the time to study it thoroughly, thereby relying completely on the veracity of the King James to render the word "converted" correctly.

I'm not a KJV-only-ist, but I do prefer and admire it (just being honest), generally speaking, so I'm reluctant to say they have erred here. Not that I believe they were incapable of erring, but I certainly wouldn't use those two verses to argue against eternal security again until I had done a lot more studying.

I'd say this is a point for you, Sis. Although I'm quite certain you're not in the least bit interested in points.
.
.

Yeah, points and having someone at a disadvantage are definitely not what I do. I like to share and listen, learn and discover, and strengthen trust and be strengthened by the trust of others.

And converted isn’t some hideous translation, I just think for English speakers present day, it could convey better, but it can be put together even with the KJV chosen translation/word, when we see Peter denied Him three times out of fear for what might be done to himself too by men. We can see that it’s trust Peter left and then returned to. He did not have the power yet, so it’s what we would expect that he fail and abandon trust in Jesus and fear for his own life.

 

[Wynona]

I have been proven wrong a few times

But if you want to prove me wrong about eternal security. You have to prove to me that after God saves me, I must now save myself. That after being found in the spirit (faith) I must perfect my sealvation in the flesh (works)

of you can do this. I will be open.

Are you open to the fact that you could be wrong?

I have had to unlearn many things over the years by reading the Scriptures and being open. Im willing to be wrong about anything if you show me in the Scriptures.

Eternal security is not necessarily wrong. After all, if we live by faith, nothing can snatch us out of Jesus' hand. I just believe that the Bible is against unconditional eternal security. The Bible does teach that we are initially saved by grace through faith and not by works.

We agree on that much.

But consider this. 1 John 3:3 says And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

1 Corintians 1:7 says


7 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Think about it. We have a responsibility to purify ourselves and cleanse ourselves. God does not automatically do this for us.

Striving to be Holy and Godly is not self-righteousness because God is the one who gives us a measure of faith. God is the one who's blood washed away our past sins when we came to Him. God is the one who gives us grace in a time of temptation. We can't boast about what God has given us the ability to do.

Its not about trusting in self. Its about not neglecting our salvation and not recieving the grace of God in vain.

 

[WalkInLight]

This is how God made us, He made us to GIVE US THESE THINGS. When we turned from him in sin, WE LOST THESE THINGS.

since this is HOW GOD MADE US, we spend a lifetime of trying to replace God and getting these things on our own. This is selfishness.

God telling us HE WANTS TO GIVE US THESE THINGS is not selfish. It is being humble. it is saying God I can;t do it. I must rely on you. so I am on my knees calling out to you to have mery on me a sinner.



selfishness is putting your needs above another's needs..

we love BECAUSE GOD FIRST LOVES US

the only love an unsaved person can give is selfish love.. Because they have yet to experience the love of God.

God fills our tanks. to excess. we take this excess and give or share it with others. Thats why God gets the credit not us

When I rely on God to save me. I am nt putting mny needs above anothers. I am calling out to God that I am hopless and helpless

I am confused with your language. As a child to be selfish is to take something and not share it.
The fall of man was Adams desire for knowledge of good and evil despite being told he would die.

So he chose knowledge over life. The desire in mankind for life, a solution to death, is very much an individual desire.

You are trying it seems to me to fit selfishness into rejecting God. I would use language to say admitting
failure and problems and asking for help is mans problem, staying self reliant and self contained.

In the trinity, Gods three part, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate yet together, distinct yet united.
I realise in Christ He desires we are strong in Him, with a strong sense of self and His blessing and building
in our lives. Jesus affirms who we are, as loving, caring, patient people, healed, restored forgiven.

If Jesus calls us to be on the throne with Him, doing as He does, His ambassadors and servants, executing
His will in his stead, then He desires to build us up to His likeness. That likeness is not a lost broken weak
person without direction, always confused and not able to share and give, but like Jesus, sharing and blessing
others.

Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Rom 8:17

So in gaining salvation we are grafted into the vine, part of the body of Christ, living and breathing as His witnesses to the world.
Some might suggest this is self righteousness, but I would suggest no this is Christ at work in us making
us into His body, which is victorious.

God bless you

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Bible does teach that we are initially saved by grace through faith and not by works.

Think about it. We have a responsibility to purify ourselves and cleanse ourselves. God does not automatically do this for us.

How have you purified and cleansed yourself and made yourself more holy. Some examples would help.

What came to my mind when I read these sentences of yours is that it sounded like what began by trust which led to receiving of the Spirit, must now be finished by the self effort and strength of the man rather than by continued and growing trust.
Of course I don’t think you really believe that, having read your posts for some time in here.

 

[WalkInLight]

Selfishness is evil - a concept theology

It strikes me certain groups focus on one idea and then make everything sound like it comes from this idea.
So anything to do with ourselves is rejecting God and asserting self righteousness.
Perfect love casts out fear, so fear is sinful.
Everything not from faith is sin.

Cowardise is deemed as worthy of the lake of fire, in terms of denying Jesus.
The more I learn of Jesus, the more difficult isolated statements are without a lot of context.
You must hate all relationships in comparison to loving God.
So you could take the phrase

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:26

For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
he is not to 'honor his father 'with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition
Matt 15:4-6

Language has contextual meaning beyond the simple words, which matter as much as the words themselves.
Jesus spoke in parables, because it takes time, life experience, emotions to perceive what He means.
And in the process of working it out, thinking things through, we change.

Little wonder then if our focus is on ideas outside scripture, we end up missing the true meaning Jesus wishes
to bring to us.

God bless you

 

[Michiah-Imla]

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1)

what began by trust which led to receiving of the Spirit, must now be finished by the self effort and strength

Why does everything the Bible tell
you to do is frowned upon and deemed “self-effort”?

What spirit is this attitude of?

 

[Wynona]

How have you purified and cleansed yourself and made yourself more holy. Some examples would help.

Hey stunnedbygrace!

For a long time, I looked at pornography and steamy lit. I was hooked. The Bible says to renew your mind, so I had to stop listening to lustful music, stop going on certain websites. I had to create a nighttime routine that was intentional to avoid slipping up.

I didn't do this out of trusting myself. I did this because of faith. Believing that God would give me a way of escape out of temptation. My contention with OSAS and people who answer everything with "just rest in the finished work of the cross" is that these sins do not fall off by resting. They are put to death by taking every thought captive.

What came to my mind when I read these sentences of yours is that it sounded like what began by trust which led to receiving of the Spirit, must now be finished by the self effort and strength of the man rather than by continued and growing trust.
Of course I don’t think you really believe that, having read your posts for some time in here.

The Spirit is a teacher. But the Spirit does not force us to do anything. We have to act on and obey what The Spirit shows us. Thats why we can grieve the Spirit.

Trust in Jesus is doing what He says, not trusting that if we don't do what He says, He's still our Lord.

 

[WalkInLight]

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1)



Why does everything the Bible tell
you to do is frowned upon and deemed “self-effort”?

What spirit is this attitude of?

I suspect the whole structure is emotional language of reality, and people trying to do something they do not want to do,
but feel God is asking them to.

If as people everything in our lives is pinned down, and we know God is asking us to "love" our enemies, we can try very
hard to do it, without shifting. The lost know this tension, of wishing they were different and finding when they tried, it failed.

So every command of Jesus they wince at, not say Amen, praise the Lord, I will work it through, pray for them, understand
them, know how and why they are lost and do not work properly and see their sin is a consequence of their sinful prison.
And when I see things in me that I hate in others, I will sort it, unpin it, in Christ work it through letting His love and forgiveness
make me whole.

No they stand static, caught, unable to shift and believe, literally everyone else is stuck like them or liars.
So they believe only by a magical wand does anything good happen or they change, its literally out of their hands.

Some go to far as to condemn people who claim freedom from the prison as real enemies of Jesus, which is very odd,
that those living in love, praise and victory are actually denying Jesus and His resurrection and power of the Holy Spirit.

God bless you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have had to unlearn many things over the years by reading the Scriptures and being open. Im willing to be wrong about anything if you show me in the Scriptures.

Eternal security is not necessarily wrong. After all, if we live by faith, nothing can snatch us out of Jesus' hand. I just believe that the Bible is against unconditional eternal security. The Bible does teach that we are initially saved by grace through faith and not by works.

You can;t say we have eternal security IF we do this. or then turn around and say it can be lost.

Thats not eternal security, it contradicts itself.

Jesus said no one is able to snatch us out of his hands. We are somebody.. He did not say we had to continue to do anything, He also said we have eternal life (not conditional) He also said we have the seal of the spirit (3 times in fact) and this seal lasts until the day of redemption (ressurection day)

The bible teaches eternal security, it is not against it.. I do not see how you can say it considering the above

We agree on that much.

But consider this. 1 John 3:3 says And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

1 Corintians 1:7 says

7 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Think about it. We have a responsibility to purify ourselves and cleanse ourselves. God does not automatically do this for us.

Striving to be Holy and Godly is not self-righteousness because God is the one who gives us a measure of faith. God is the one who's blood washed away our past sins when we came to Him. God is the one who gives us grace in a time of temptation. We can't boast about what God has given us the ability to do.

Its not about trusting in self. Its about not neglecting our salvation and not recieving the grace of God in vain.

If your trying to purify to save yourself are you not trying to save yourself? (I have yet to have anyone answer this question in a way that makes sense)

How do we wash ourselves?

Ephesians 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

the question is

are we made white through our work. or through the blood of Christ.

Are we redeemed through blood. or through our works.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am confused with your language. As a child to be selfish is to take something and not share it.
The fall of man was Adams desire for knowledge of good and evil despite being told he would die.

So he chose knowledge over life. The desire in mankind for life, a solution to death, is very much an individual desire.

You are trying it seems to me to fit selfishness into rejecting God. I would use language to say admitting
failure and problems and asking for help is mans problem, staying self reliant and self contained.

In the trinity, Gods three part, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate yet together, distinct yet united.
I realise in Christ He desires we are strong in Him, with a strong sense of self and His blessing and building
in our lives. Jesus affirms who we are, as loving, caring, patient people, healed, restored forgiven.

If Jesus calls us to be on the throne with Him, doing as He does, His ambassadors and servants, executing
His will in his stead, then He desires to build us up to His likeness. That likeness is not a lost broken weak
person without direction, always confused and not able to share and give, but like Jesus, sharing and blessing
others.

Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Rom 8:17

So in gaining salvation we are grafted into the vine, part of the body of Christ, living and breathing as His witnesses to the world.
Some might suggest this is self righteousness, but I would suggest no this is Christ at work in us making
us into His body, which is victorious.

God bless you

why do you think God calls a transgressor someone in the flesh.

I think we need to sit down and discover what sin is. Sin or more than just committing adulty. We have sinned LONG before we commited the act.

Far to many people look at the commands and think, I do not break them, so I am sinless

When in reality. while they may not do the deed. They are still sinning everything they chose to serve self.

I did not say selfishness is rejecting God (Although it is selfish)

I said when we are selfish, we are in sin.. We may not even know we are in sin, But we are.. To many people through the ages do not realise how sinful they are because they do not know this point. This point brought me to my knees a second time. it is one thing to call out to God for salvation. But the more I get to know God and who he is. the more I realize what a sinner I am.

I can not contemplate anyone who thinks they are sinless.. Not even paul made that state. who thinks they are better than paul

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I suspect the whole structure is emotional language of reality, and people trying to do something they do not want to do,
but feel God is asking them to.

If as people everything in our lives is pinned down, and we know God is asking us to "love" our enemies, we can try very
hard to do it, without shifting. The lost know this tension, of wishing they were different and finding when they tried, it failed.

So every command of Jesus they wince at, not say Amen, praise the Lord, I will work it through, pray for them, understand
them, know how and why they are lost and do not work properly and see their sin is a consequence of their sinful prison.
And when I see things in me that I hate in others, I will sort it, unpin it, in Christ work it through letting His love and forgiveness
make me whole.

No they stand static, caught, unable to shift and believe, literally everyone else is stuck like them or liars.
So they believe only by a magical wand does anything good happen or they change, its literally out of their hands.

Some go to far as to condemn people who claim freedom from the prison as real enemies of Jesus, which is very odd,
that those living in love, praise and victory are actually denying Jesus and His resurrection and power of the Holy Spirit.

God bless you

lol..

I do not know anyone like this.

well wait. yes I do

people who claim to be sinless and refuse to acknowledge their own sin.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I can not contemplate anyone who thinks they are sinless.. Not even paul made that state.

Read between the lines:

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Romans 6:6-7)

When a prisoner is freed from prison, is he still a prisoner?

 

[WalkInLight]

why do you think God calls a transgressor someone in the flesh.

I think we need to sit down and discover what sin is. Sin or more than just committing adulty. We have sinned LONG before we commited the act.

Far to many people look at the commands and think, I do not break them, so I am sinless

When in reality. while they may not do the deed. They are still sinning everything they chose to serve self.

I did not say selfishness is rejecting God (Although it is selfish)

I said when we are selfish, we are in sin.. We may not even know we are in sin, But we are.. To many people through the ages do not realise how sinful they are because they do not know this point. This point brought me to my knees a second time. it is one thing to call out to God for salvation. But the more I get to know God and who he is. the more I realize what a sinner I am.

I can not contemplate anyone who thinks they are sinless.. Not even paul made that state. who thinks they are better than paul

I hope I can summarise what you are saying.
Man is in sin without committing sin, so being human is to be in sin.
Selfish means sin.

But what I said was simply to be alive we have needs, which could be called selfish which Jesus equally had.
As Jesus was sinless this definition does not work, at all.

The apostles Jesus called clean, not perfect, but clean.
The Father spoke with Moses, on holy ground, cleansed but not perfect people.
The mark of God is clearly a cleansed people, who will be perfected in the transformation at the last trumpet.

Apart from this I cannot see that you have defined sin in a biblical sense.
Sin is actions that God determines are worthy of punishment or rebuke.

I need to explore this point about being clean, because Jesus talks a lot about cleansing, and the temple was
continually talking about being unclean and being cleansed.

Being made perfect, is something different as Jesus was perfected through His suffering, which is not an idea
I really understand. To me Jesus was already perfect, but the apostles wanted to expand on this clearly.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Trust in Jesus is doing what He says, not trusting that if we don't do what He says, He's still our Lord.

Trust in Jesus does lead to doing what He said. But we go from to trust to trust (faith to faith.) No baby is born and then never soils themselves. We soil ourselves and struggle with sin in us and not trusting some of what He has said and promised. Our trust grows. That does lead to doing what He said. From start to finish, it is all through our trust. We are in a race of trust. It’s not a race of purifying ourselves. Its not a race of getting our theology exact. It’s a race to trust more and more fully and to stumble less in our trust. Anything good God has for us comes through trusting Him, not through our hard efforts in our own strength. It’s through trusting Him and putting no confidence in our own working.

By the way, I also don’t understand the phrase of trusting in His finished work. He is still working in me.

 

[WalkInLight]

lol..

I do not know anyone like this.

well wait. yes I do

people who claim to be sinless and refuse to acknowledge their own sin.

You are right, being caught and not listening to Jesus can happen to anyone, at any time.

Jesus described this as people who were in the vine but no longer abide, they become like a dried up branch,
that is broken off and burnt.

Learning from Jesus is to know we are all vulnerable to sin and failure, even Jesus was tempted and could
have fallen.

Amen, that you love the law of God and with a good heart follow Jesus

God bless you

 

[Davy]

God blesses you for it.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The key of course is being honest with ourselves. It's not by mistake that Jesus says, in an honest and good heart, the seed grows unto righteousness of God without sinning for the devil.

Truly, all God is looking for is honesty first from any soul. He cannot help self-deceiving dishonesty.

Especially with those trained to teach being unrighteous christian sinners, as by grace.

God is love, and so God is not One to force any soul to love Him with singleness of heart and do His will, without also serving the devil.

Those who believe, practice, and teach Romans 7 as standard christianity in this life, cannot at this time, be helped.

There's a standing joke about a certain Christian denomination, which I won't name, even though I was raised in it, that there's this guy who goes to Heaven and meets Peter, and he sees this huge long wall behind Peter, and asks about it.

Then Peter says, "Oh, that's for the xxxxx xx xxxxxt denomination, they like to think they're the only ones here."

So for those who think vanity like they DON'T SIN ANYMORE, even as a believer on Jesus Christ, those might want to be careful about claiming they can't have future sin, because when they are shown their sin they will have no excuse, and will need to learn to repent, asking Lord Jesus Christ to forgive them.