Once Saved Always Saved

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marks

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Any honest, unbiased person can see

Back to the ad hominems.

1 John 3:1-2 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This verse is true AS IS. No changes needed.

Much love!
 

marks

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It’s good that you mentioned that. That is basically what I also have been telling those who cite scriptures here and there to support their view, to read scriptures in its proper context. If we are arguing about something that falls within the context of the new covenant, it would be a mistake to argue outside of that.

Tong
R2888
Such confusion results from not rightly dividing between God's covenants.

Much love!
 

marks

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It's okay if you want to believe that the forgiven person will always retain his forgiveness. The important thing is you know that the believer must believe all the way to the end and live a holy life.
What I'm doing is attempting to bring into focus some Scriptures which you don't seem to believe.

BTW . . . your permission for what I believe is meaningless to me. I read the Bible, and I believe what it says.

Much love!
 

marks

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He fails to realize that he is making the passage teach of losing one’s salvation by one’s wrong act, or an act of sin.

Perhaps. I don't know whether that is true or not.

The behavior I see is in misquoting, cherry picking translations, quoting out of context, misrepresenting other people, I don't know whether this is unconcious behavior, or part of an agenda.

Much love!
 

marks

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The original Osas teaching from the 1500's says God chooses what person will be created to be a believer and which person will be created to be an unbeliever. Therefore, if you are a believer it's because God purposely made you to be a believer and so you will always be a believer and you will never stop believing, and you will live a holy life. And, personally, I don't care if someone wants to believe that. The important thing is they know that the believer must believe to the very end, and live a holy life. Many people have changed that and now believe that you remain a believer (a saved person) even if you stop believing, and don't live a holy life and go back to your old life of sin. It's absurd. At least the original Osas teaching had some sense about it. The new one, not so much, lol.

I'd suggest stop trying to insert your ideas of OSAS, and just focus on understanding what the Bible says, and in trusting that it is true.

For instance:

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So then all of this "maybe you will, maybe you won't, maybe you'll stop believing" is put to rest in this passage. You won't stop believing, IF Jesus is in you. Because it's true, when we see Him, we SHALL be like him.

Galatians 2:15-16 KJV
15) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Once we understand the Scriptures, and have believed them, all this doctrines just get sorted out on their own.

The real key is accepting what the Bible says as true - ALL of it.
Much love!
 

Grailhunter

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The behavior I see is in misquoting, cherry picking translations, quoting out of context, misrepresenting other people, I don't know whether this is unconcious behavior, or part of an agenda.

You guys are the ones that do that. Everyone else says read the whole Gospel. Here again, you think people are not noticing this.
You are fooling no one....but maybe yourselves.
 

marks

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No it's not. Faith comes from God. It's the proof the gospel is true. Trusting/believing in the gospel comes from us. And Paul says there is no boast of self righteousness in that trusting. The church says there is.
When you believe, you are accepting the reality of what God says. And God gives you the faith of Jesus, and you are saved.

After that . . . you assert that it is your faith that "keeps you saved".

Galatians 2:15-16 KJV
15) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You would take credit for the work of Christ in you. If it were truly your working, yes, you would fail. But Christ does not fail.

That is salvation! Actually saved!

Much love!
 

Grailhunter

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I'd suggest stop trying to insert your ideas of OSAS, and just focus on understanding what the Bible says, and in trusting that it is true.

For instance:

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So then all of this "maybe you will, maybe you won't, maybe you'll stop believing" is put to rest in this passage. You won't stop believing, IF Jesus is in you. Because it's true, when we see Him, we SHALL be like him.

Galatians 2:15-16 KJV
15) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Once we understand the Scriptures, and have believed them, all this doctrines just get sorted out on their own.

The real key is accepting what the Bible says as true - ALL of it.
Much love!

The Truth has power and you cannot escape it.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1Tm:5:20: Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Hebrews 6:4-8
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10: 26-31
26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2nd Peter 2:4-22
4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment 5: And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they nderstand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Galatians 5:21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Jude:1:15: To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rom:1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Rom:6:12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Pull out your magic markers, you are going to need to get rid of these.
Oh how you wish these scriptures were not in the Bible!
A religion of explaining away scriptures. What type of religion is that?
 

marks

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You guys are the ones that do that. Everyone else says read the whole Gospel. Here again, you think people are not noticing this.
You are fooling no one....but maybe yourselves.
Tell me where.

I'm the guy that's spent literally hundreds of hours looking at every relevant passage in minutest detail, all these ones that are being quoted in this thread. I'll discuss any of them with you, or anyone else.

Yes, you are right, we say the same things, it comes out the same. And it's good to avoid that, for appearance sake if nothing else.

Just the same, a correct view will harmonize with all other Scripture, if understood correctly, and without having to change them.

There are several clearly stated passages which flatly contradict the notion that someone who is born again will fail to be saved in the end.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Do you in fact know this?

Much love!
 

marks

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The Truth has power and you cannot escape it.


Pull out your magic markers, you are going to need to get rid of these.
Oh how you wish these scriptures were not in the Bible!
A religion of explaining away scriptures. What type of religion is that?

I hope you don't mind that I'll take these a few at a time.

Oh how you wish these scriptures were not in the Bible!

Why would you even think that? Much less have the boldness to say it to my face? So untrue! Do you care that you speak falsely of me?

Much love!
 

marks

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Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Not everyone who calls Jesus LORD is born again.

What is the will of the Father?

That we listen to Jesus.

What is Jesus' commandment? That we believe in Him, and love each other. If you don't believe in Jesus, it doesn't matter what you call Him, you won't be saved.

Much love!
 

marks

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1Tm:5:20: Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Yes, but where is the statement about being saved, or being lost, or not truly being saved, or any of these? Rebuke, yes. What here teaches us that the born again may yet be lost?

Much love!
 

marks

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You may find my answers wanting, just the same, the point is, if the passage doesn't make the statement, it just doesn't. And to form doctrine from passages that don't actually say the thing you are asserting, they just don't say it. They need to be removed as support. And when all the passages are shown to not teach this thing, then there is no support.

In my experience, for the most part, people don't care about that.

They will say, "Lord, Lord", see?? and I point out, this doesn't mean they are saved, yet, I never see that passage removed from the list. It's as if it doesn't matter whether it really says that or not, It sounds like it, and by gum that's good enough!

I've run into this consistently over the years, but that's OK. It's good practice to review these things, and I never mind examining Scriptures.

Much love!
 

Grailhunter

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Tell me where.
Read the threads on this topic. I know I have told you guys this a few times.

I'm the guy that's spent literally hundreds of hours looking at every relevant passage in minutest detail, all these ones that are being quoted in this thread. I'll discuss any of them with you, or anyone else.

I cannot help with reading comprehension. I just sent you scriptures that have been posted before. You can spend your life explaining away scriptures that you do not like...it only works in your head...everyone else notices and it definitely is not going to work for Christ when you are standing before Him.

There are several clearly stated passages which flatly contradict the notion that someone who is born again will fail to be saved in the end.

This is your failure...harmonizing the Bible as a whole. Everybody has explained this to you in so many ways. On Judgment Day, Christ will know that they tried to help you. People tell you about Acts 2:38 and if you want to go to heaven, be good, because there will be no career evildoers in heaven. The people that have lived a life of sin...a life style of sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

When you are standing in front of Christ...trying to explain away the scriptures, it is not going to work...

See I do not have to worry about that. I tell Christians to be good. There will be no lost souls that I have to answer for.

You want to believe that you can sin all you want and still go to heaven...it is not going to work for you and if people believe you, will be answering to Christ for their damned souls. Preaching false beliefs is a double edged sword.
 

marks

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I cannot help with reading comprehension. I just sent you scriptures that have been posted before. You can spend your life explaining away scriptures that you do not like...it only works in your head...everyone else notices.
You know . . . nevermind. Maybe I'll exegete your verses for you, and maybe not, I'll see how the day goes.

Much love!
 

marks

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You want to believe that you can sin all you want and still go to heaven...
Who wants to believe this?

:eek:

Personally, I find stuff like this offensive. But then, I'm not here to be offended or not offended. Just sayin'.

Much love!
 

marks

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This is your failure...harmonizing the Bible as a whole. Everybody has explained this to you in so many ways.
No. I'm saying we need to harmonize more than what some appear to want to do.

We have to accept passages like Colossions 3, and I John 3, just like all the others.

Much love!
 

Wrangler

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see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25
John is saying you can take it, or you can leave it. But if you leave it, you don't get to remain in the Son and the Father and in the promise of eternal life. I'm good if you think the real believer will always keep the word in them and believe to the very end. The important thing is you believe that the word must remain in a believer all the way to the very end.

You've referenced this 1 John 2:24-25 verse several times. Sadly, the OSAS crowd ignores verses that do not support their doctrine.

I think it would be more humble and Christ-like to admit there are verses in the Bible that support opposing doctrines even though no verse explicitly teaches the doctrine in question. (I think I'll start a thread along this line of inquiry for I saw an outstanding video on point).

IMO, this 1 John 2:24-25 verse, like the Hebrews 10:26 verse, OSAS crowd seems to deny this 'received knowledge' and 'hearing' are equivalent expressions to required ongoing action on the part of the saved. (It's cultural, the way they talked then. We don't say today 'don't have ears to hear'. Today we say 'willful ignorance.' Same meaning) Jesus is the Savior. He alone saves. However, we have the burden to turn to him (including whatever variation of 'believe, put faith in, trust, accept' one might prefer) initially and thereafter.


Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.
Hebrews 10:26
 
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