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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
This is what I said:

“ There is no such thing as giving up forgiveness of sins. When one was forgiven of his sins by God, he is forgiven of his sins. That’s a done deed.There is nothing to give up there.
27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.
32...‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me.
34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed. Matthew 18:27-34​

You said no where in the Bible is there the giving up the forgiveness of sins. Well, we're staring right at it in the above passage. And not only is this in the Bible, contrary to your claim it is not, Jesus is saying this is how it is in the kingdom of God! ↓↓↓

the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. Matthew 18:23

That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.” Matthew 18:35
So, no more talk about a person losing the forgiveness of sin not being in the Bible. It's there, and that's how it is in the kingdom of God.
<<<You said no where in the Bible is there the giving up the forgiveness of sins.>>>

And I was commenting on your statement about the idea of a christian choosing to give up the forgiveness of sins or not. And you said that in the context of salvation.

Now you make that passage to support the idea. And I have pointed out to you that the point of the parable isn’t about that. It’s a misuse of the parable to use it to point something it was not given to teach.

If the idea is taught in scriptures, there are other scriptures that clearly speaks about it. Don’t you have any other scripture references to give?

Tong
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Ferris Bueller

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Here is another one you'll have to change:

1 John 3:1-2 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Not that I'm recommending changing it. Just to say, you won't be able to reconcile this passage to your assertions without rewriting it.
I don't need to rewrite it. Who's arguing that the sons of God won't be saved???? What you're ignoring is everything else the Bible says about that promise, even what John himself says about it just a few verses before that....

see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25
See, the condition for having the promise is that the word remain in you and you remain in Christ. I don't care if someone wants to believe the word always will remain in a believer. What I resist is this totally stupid new osas that says the word does not have to remain in you, and you do not have to remain in Christ for you to have the promise of eternal life. Any honest, unbiased person can see that would directly contradict the condition John himself said exists for having the promise of eternal life—the word must remain in you. You can not cast the word of the gospel off in unbelief and still have the promise of eternal life.
 
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mailmandan

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The demons do not trust in Christ. They know about him and the gospel, but they do not trust in it. If you think the believing they do is the believing we do...well...I don't know what to tell you.
Amen! The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) and they also believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened," but they do not trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation. They do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust is in Satan (and not Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continued rebellion against Christ through their evil works.
 
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Tong2020

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You continue to mix the old and new covenants.

Yes . . . righteousness could be lost under the Law. However, we are not under the Law. So our righteousness is not the righteousness of the Law, it is the righteousness by faith, the righteousness of God by faith.

Talk about it, don't talk about it . . . or talk about Colossians 3:1-4. You seem to be avoiding that.

Much love!
It’s good that you mentioned that. That is basically what I also have been telling those who cite scriptures here and there to support their view, to read scriptures in its proper context. If we are arguing about something that falls within the context of the new covenant, it would be a mistake to argue outside of that.

Tong
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Tong2020

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marks said:
Yes . . . righteousness could be lost under the Law.
Don't tell me. Tong is the one who said it was no where in the scriptures. Think what you want about it, but Tong is the one who claimed it was no where in the scriptures.
Misrepresentation again? I did not even talk about that matter.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Just keep believing to the very end. That's all you need to know. And we don't need 10,000 pages to know that because the Bible plainly says to do that. Focus on what counts and let's leave the silly, divisive doctrinal contentions to our own personal 'curious but unimportant' studies.
<<<Just keep believing to the very end. That's all you need to know.>>>

I am beginning to think that that is the gospel you preach.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Pay attention! You agree that the passage is talking about being forgiven and then not being forgiven. I don't care what your thinking is about it. The point is Tong made a bold contention that this did not exist in scripture. Now tell him it does! Don't share your personal opinion about it's application. Because it's not about that. This about Tong saying the concept did not exist in scripture, period.
<<<The point is Tong made a bold contention that this did not exist in scripture.>>>

What I contend is that there is no such thing as choosing to or not to give up the forgiveness of sins. And that is in the context of our conversation under this thread concerning salvation.

Besides, even your misuse of that parable would not support the idea of one giving up the forgiveness of his sins. For even that servant whose debt was forgiven by his master, did not give up what forgiveness he received. He was punished not for his debt, but for what he had done to his fellow servant who owed him and begged for his patience.

Tong
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Ferris Bueller

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I know what was being said. I'm following the discussion. You aren't fooling me.

The point is, you are using apples to object to his oranges. You know it and I know it. You could do much better to stay on point, but I don't think that serves your agenda.

You blend the old and new covenants, casting doubt against the salvation from God. That's all there is to it.

We'll go round and round til kingdom come, and that won't change. The old covenant, a covenant made with Israel, is not like the new covenant, which is based on better promises.



Where do you see someone in the Bible "give up forgiveness of sins"?

Where do you see God having forgiven someone their sins, that God later took back His forgiveness?

You cite parables taught by Jesus, teaching and instructing those who were under the Law. And you dissect the details of parables, and derive doctrine from that, parables, and hold to those doctrines even though they are flatly contradicted by passages given to establish our faith in the new covenant.

Apples and oranges.

The thing with parables, they are stories not unfamiliar to the hearer, which contains a truth within it's lines, but not every element is meant to express doctrine.

Consider the "Parable of the Unjust Judge". Jesus compares our Heavenly Father to an "unjust judge". Of course we know that our Father is not in the slightest unjust!

Much love!
It's okay if you want to believe that the forgiven person will always retain his forgiveness. The important thing is you know that the believer must believe all the way to the end and live a holy life.
 

Tong2020

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marks said:
You keep talking OSAS. You do. You.

I'm talking Scriptures.

Like this one.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Good grief! This doesn't prove anything about Osas, lol! Everybody knows that if you are risen with Christ (and not backslidden into unbelief) that you will appear with him in glory!
Would you say you were risen with Christ when you believed Him back then?

If not, when do you think you were risen with Christ?

If it was not in the past, how about today, would you say you are risen with Christ today? And if you say you are, then as the passage says, you shall also appear with him in glory. Do you believe that or not?

Now if you believe that, do you take that as being real or just only in your mind?

Let me guess. Considering your belief, that you could lose your salvation anytime you decide to reject Jesus Christ, the matter of having risen with Christ is just in the mind and not real. Well,...

Tong
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Ferris Bueller

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If the idea is taught in scriptures, there are other scriptures that clearly speaks about it. Don’t you have any other scripture references to give?
see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25
John is saying you can take it, or you can leave it. But if you leave it, you don't get to remain in the Son and the Father and in the promise of eternal life. I'm good if you think the real believer will always keep the word in them and believe to the very end. The important thing is you believe that the word must remain in a believer all the way to the very end.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Would you say you were risen with Christ when you believed Him back then?

If not, when do you think you were risen with Christ?

If it was not in the past, how about today, would you say you are risen with Christ today? And if you say you are, then as the passage says, you shall also appear with him in glory. Do you believe that or not?

Now if you believe that, do you take that as being real or just only in your mind?

Let me guess. Considering your belief, that you could lose your salvation anytime you decide to reject Jesus Christ, the matter of having risen with Christ is just in the mind and not real. Well,...

Tong
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The indwelling Holy Spirit is a real thing. The important thing here is that a person continue to believe so that the Holy Spirit remains in them. I don't care if someone thinks that will automatically happen. The important thing is that it does.
 
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Tong2020

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Every person that debates you two is opposed to cherry picking....this is what you two do. Everybody tells you to read the whole Bible. I award everyone's patience that has dealt with you two, because you guys have absolutely no regard or respect for the scriptures. Besides Calvinism, which is somewhere between blasphemy and Satanic, your beliefs are brand new. A new fad....a response to social and political views and values...the new denomination. Other than that, OSAS beliefs are not represented in the Bible or Christens history. None of the early Christian writers, some of which were disciples of the Apostles, wrote of the OSAS beliefs. Its all under the influence of the mad man John Calvin and modern social and political values. No body pays any attentions to history! LOL If someone would have preached the OSAS rubbish in the 1600's they would have either tarred and feathered them or burn them at the stake. This is strictly a slithering religion that has snuck in to support sinning.

The neat thing is they lurk in the shadows....Your not going to see them on TV actually preaching their beliefs. RA! RA! Sin some more! You are not going to see them around a kitchen table on one of these TV ministries as they search the Bible looking for scriptures that justify sin....Kids gather around the TV, it is Pastor Sin and his Power of Sin Hour!.... So he sits at the table and reads to the kids, Here ya go kids....this is the scripture that justifies doing drugs....it will be fun! Here is the scripture that justifies murdering millions of babies. Here is the scripture that justifies being a homosexual and look here, here is one for cross dressing! Little Suzie, take your brother in your bedroom and dress him up as a girl and do'em... See here it is all justified....See here don't worry about working, you can always steal...work is too hard kids. Tune in next week for the Power of Sin Hour and we will talk about what you can do with your pets!

All new fad of evil. You are not going to see renaissance paintings of heaven full of evildoers. You are not going to read in the Bible where Christ and Apostles dressed up as girls and went out for a drug party to spread the word.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys have your own stash....druggies have the amazing ability to make themselves thing that no one is noticing. Like that, you guys do not know that you are a neon sign for evil....yes people notice you are preaching evil. You are preaching to the scum of the earth and it is sweet candy on Satan's tongue. How many souls will be damned to hell because of what you preach?
<<<I award everyone's patience that has dealt with you two, because you guys have absolutely no regard or respect for the scriptures.>>>

WDR, may I ask, who are you sir? You sound like one who see himself high up there so far above the, I don’t know where.

Tong
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Grailhunter

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<<<I award everyone's patience that has dealt with you two, because you guys have absolutely no regard or respect for the scriptures.>>>

WDR, may I ask, who are you sir? You sound like one who see himself high up there so far above the, I don’t know where.

Tong
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This is not rocket science. The Bible...and the the examples that Christ and the Apostle set does no condone sinful lifestyles and a guarantee to heaven. Yes I am an educated Christian, but it does to take that to understand the basics of the Bible. Beyond that there is just common sense....why would a good Christian want to go to heaven, if it is full of evildoers. The proof is in the pudding.
 
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JunChosen

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The demons do not trust in Christ. They know about him and the gospel, but they do not trust in it. If you think the believing they do is the believing we do...well...I don't know what to tell you.

True, the demons do not have a "childlike belief" as a believer demonstrates, however; in the sense concerning the word "believe" both words mean the same.
 

JunChosen

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No it's not. Faith comes from God. It's the proof the gospel is true. Trusting/believing in the gospel comes from us. And Paul says there is no boast of self righteousness in that trusting. The church says there is.

The words believe/faith are used interchangeably. If trusting/believing comes from us, why do we need to exercise it?
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Good insights. We sure can take that in a lot of different ways and views. But we could know only as much as scriptures tells us and should take that from there.

If one will observe the preaching of John the baptist, he preached about the Kingdom of God and the Messiah, to repent and believe in Him, for the remission of sins. During his ministry, even after he baptized Jesus and saw signs leading him to think that He was the Messiah, he did not go out to the people telling them that of Jesus, that He is the Messiah. Instead we read that he just went on and continued on doing about his ministry, to call on the people and be baptized with the baptism of repentance. One should consider that when reading about John the baptist. Not that we readily conclude that John the baptist had faith and doubted.
Yes, both John and Jesus continued to preach "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand." What Jesus knew, however, and what John didn't know, is that the fulfillment of the kingdom would be delayed for 2000 years. I always give John and the others the benefit of the doubt seeing that they were attempting to obey and serve God with limited information.

With regard to John's teaching, what do you make of Apollos?
What about Apollos?

Tong
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JunChosen

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The original Osas teaching from the 1500's says God chooses what person will be created to be a believer and which person will be created to be an unbeliever. Therefore, if you are a believer it's because God purposely made you to be a believer and so you will always be a believer and you will never stop believing, and you will live a holy life.

Most people do not believe in "predestination/elect" so they come up with a gospel that Do Not save! They indicate that all they have to do is "believe." They don't realize that this is impossible because there is none righteous no, not one and that there is no one that seeks after God! WITHOUT EXCEPTION!!!

And, personally, I don't care if someone wants to believe that. The important thing is they know that the believer must believe to the very end, and live a holy life

Unlike you, the believer knows that Jesus indwells him and it is He that endures for him to "believe to the end and live a holy life."
 
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marks

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If you want to ignore everything else the Bible says about remaining born again you can claim that passage say Osas is true.
Do I? No I do not.

You are the one who keeps bringing up OSAS.

The fact is, you CANNOT reconcile the Scriptures according to your assertions without re-writing them.

1 John 3:1-2 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Apparently you don't believe this is true in every case. I do. I believe what is written.

Much love!
 

marks

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No, I didn't change it, lol. I read it in the light of everything else the Bible says about this subject.
You rewrote it. You added parts that were not written in the original.

So yes you did. You apparently do not accept the simple statements these passages make, Colossian 3, 1 John 3.

Much love!
 
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