One of the Best Explanations I've seen on Satan's sin.

[post]

He did not think equality with God was something to be grasped

harpagmos: to be clung to or prized

although He was in substance, God, He did not consider His equality with God something to cling to, but humbled Himself, being found in human form, as a servant, He surpassed all servanthood, being obedient even to death

morphé: the essential intrinsic inner substance of a thing
"being in the morphé of God"

He emptied Himself, in the likeness of a man having become

homoióma: a likeness, a similitude, an outward characteristic, a resemblance



Philippians 2 is powerful. it literally says He is God, having the exact intrinsic substance as God -- the Son of God is 'made of Godhood' it is exactly His fundamental essence
and then it says He, God, humbled Himself, setting aside His glory, making Himself a servant, taking on the form of man. the Substance of God hid Himself in human flesh.
the Word become flesh, and we beheld His glory!



@Aunty Jane you can ignore this since you think He should be stoned to death & don't believe Him.
it's for other people i just used your quote as it's a good starting point for lifting up His name =]

 

[post]

why "few" are on the road to life.

you want to know what few is?
let me challenge you:
go to 100 churches in your town and ask the people there if Christ is God. next year tag or PM me and tell me how many of them deny His deity and how many confess it. tell me how reluctant the ones who admit it were, to confess it. tell me how many try to pass it off like it doesn't matter.

At the time when Jesus walked the earth your trinity did not exist except in paganism.

search your copy of the OT for these phrases:

the LORD
The Angel of the LORD
The Spirit of the LORD

ask an orthodox Jew about them.
no i don't mean poke around Chabad or MyJewishLearning for prooftexts. i mean go talk to an actual devout orthodox Jew.
real talk. an actual conversation. not puffing.
are you ready for him to examine your religion?

 

[post]

this forum is so weird.

 

[Aunty Jane]

so just stick with your mantra "Christ is not God" and the world will 100% be in fellowship with you.

No...if the world was in 100% fellowship with me, I would be part of Christendom....I am no part of Christendom or any of her pagan adoptions.

Since "few" are on the road to life....I would rather be among the "few"......OK? If you wish to be among the "many"...that is your choice. (Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23)

You can believe whatever you wish.....but you can never say that you weren't told....

 

[post]

No...if the world was in 100% fellowship with me, I would be part of Christendom....I am no part of Christendom or any of her pagan adoptions.

You didn't understand a single thing I said?
Whoosh?
Right over your head?

OK I will try harder with the next unbeliever. This place has so many

 

[marks]

John 8:58 has no connection whatsoever to Exodus 3:14.
"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” It makes no grammatical sense. Jesus was answering a question about his age and was telling the Jews that he was in existence before Abraham was even born.....past tense. It should read, as other translations have rendered it...."before Abraham was born, I existed".

I think you've demonstrated your abilities with original languages you must know the fallacy here. You are changing the tense to suit your doctrine.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes...that is what I understand.....but YHWH is not Jesus.

In all your post, you do not address the simplicity of the Scriptures.

God says, there is no other savior than He. You say, there are other saviors. There is ONE to Whom you shall bow. Who is that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God — and righteousness and sanctification and redemption
— that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”
(1 Corinthians 1:3-31)​

That's good!

It was a real eye-opener for me when I realized what Paul was writing when he wrote of the Lord in the New Testament, referring to Jesus Christ.

We know the Jews replaced YHWH with Kurios, Lord, in the Septuagint, from which Paul quoted. When Paul quotes from Isaiah, about how YHWH says, He is the only God, the only Savior, and everyone is going to bow, and to swear to Him, when Paul applies this to Jesus, that to Jesus, every knee will bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Kurios, this Pharisee of Pharisees, this one taught personally by Jesus, this was not some insignificant thing.

No! Fully serious! Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father. That's what Paul was saying.

It's like the quote you posted there. IF "Lord" in that place were NOT referring to YHWH, then you have to do this mental "flip" so that when you read, "As it is written . . . in the LORD", you have to disconnect from the use within where he's quoting from, and then transfer it to Jesus.

And the question is, in Whom shall you glory? Shall you glory in YHWH? In Jesus? These are One and the Same.

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think you've demonstrated your abilities with original languages you must know the fallacy here. You are changing the tense to suit your doctrine.

Much love!

It amazes me the blindness that exists especially with regard to John 8:58.

Let’s examine that verse in context and see who has altered the tense....?

John 8:52-59.....
“Then the Jews said, “Now we know You have a demon. Abraham died and so did the prophets. You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste death—ever!’ Are You greater than our father Abraham who died? Even the prophets died. Who do You pretend to be?” 54 “If I glorify Myself,” Jesus answered, “My glory is nothing. My Father—you say about Him, ‘He is our God’—He is the One who glorifies Me. 55 You’ve never known Him, but I know Him. If I were to say I don’t know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day; he saw it and rejoiced.” The Jews replied, “You aren’t 50 years old yet, and You’ve seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am.” At that, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple complex. (HCSB)

What question was Jesus answering?
“Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day; he saw it and rejoiced.” The Jews replied, “You aren’t 50 years old yet, and You’ve seen Abraham?”
Jesus answered “I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am.”
“I am” makes no sense here as Jesus is referring to the past, not the present. He was telling the Jews that he existed before Abraham.....

You talk about simplicity? There it is.... pure and simple. There is not even a hint of a trinity in his response. There is no connection to Exodus 3:14 in any way, unless you want to force his words to say what he never did.

 

[marks]

“I am” makes no sense here as Jesus is referring to the past, not the present. He was telling the Jews that he existed before Abraham.....

I'm not talking about Trinity, I'm talking about your handling of the Word of God. You can't just change the tense of a word because what it says doesn't make sense to you. That's not right.

Rather, you should change your POV - whatever that may be - towards what DOES make sense when you let the Bible say what it says. Whatever that may be.

In saying, Before Abraham was, I am, not looking at a trinitarian perspective, but only what Jesus says about Himself in this statement, He was saying that He exists in a present tense before Abraham existed in a past tense. Existing in a present tense prior to someone else's past tense can only be said by someone eternal, that is, who lives outside of this space/time continuum, which includes heaven, where the angels live.

The point here is not that Jesus existed before Abraham, but that Jesus exists before Abraham. He could know Abraham not by virtue of pre-existance, but by virtue of eternal existance. There is a big difference, though it seem such a small change.

This is a passage that seems to trip a lot of people up, and many seem to be tempted to do the same thing you've done, to not take seriously, fully, what Jesus said.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

At times, in the Old Testament, God appears as “the angel of the Lord”. This is not the Father but the Son. This can be seen when God told Abraham he was to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac (Genesis 22:1-2). In the book of Genesis it says “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.” Genesis 22:1-2 In verses 11-12 it says “And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.” Genesis 22:11-12 In verse 1 it says it was God who spoke to Abraham whilst in verses 11-12 (after Abraham had proved his faithfulness to God by being willing to sacrifice Isaac) it says that “the angel of the Lord” spoke to him saying “now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me”. From this we can see that whilst this angel of the Lord is Christ, He is also God. This means that if He is “of the Lord” – and that He is also God, then this must be the Son of God.

 

[Brakelite]

In Genesis 31:11 we read that in a dream it was “the angel of the Lord” who had appeared to Jacob. This ‘angel’ then identified Himself as “the God of Bethel”. This is the place where Jacob had anointed the pillar of stones and where he had made a vow to God (see verse 13). Another example of the ‘angel of the Lord’ being God is in Exodus 3:2. We are told “And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.” Exodus 3:2 In verse 4 this “angel of the LORD” is identified as “the Lord” and “God” (see also verse 11) whilst later we then find this same person identifying Himself as the “I AM”. When Moses asked for the “name” of the One who had sent him we are told “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” Exodus 3:14 From this we can see that the “I AM” is “the angel of the Lord”, yet because He is “of” the Lord He is not the Father but the Son. The Son therefore (as well as the Father) is the “I AM”– meaning that as described in these verses, the angel of the Lord is God in the person of the Son (see also John 8:58). It can only be concluded therefore that ‘the Old Testament God’ – the one who led and spoke to the patriarchs of old - is none other than Christ Himself– or to put it another way – God Himself in the person of the Son.

 

[marks]

John 1:18 KJV
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Exodus 24:9-11 KJV
9) Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10) And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11) And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

It's Jesus!



Much love!

 

[post]

There is not even a hint of a trinity in his response. There is no connection to Exodus 3:14 in any way

why did they try to kill Him for saying this?


do some research:
https://www.mohrsiebeck.com/uploads/tx_sgpublisher/produkte/leseproben/9783161470981.pdf

 

[post]

In Genesis 31:11 we read that in a dream it was “the angel of the Lord” who had appeared to Jacob. This ‘angel’ then identified Himself as “the God of Bethel”. This is the place where Jacob had anointed the pillar of stones and where he had made a vow to God (see verse 13). Another example of the ‘angel of the Lord’ being God is in Exodus 3:2. We are told “And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.” Exodus 3:2 In verse 4 this “angel of the LORD” is identified as “the Lord” and “God” (see also verse 11) whilst later we then find this same person identifying Himself as the “I AM”. When Moses asked for the “name” of the One who had sent him we are told “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” Exodus 3:14 From this we can see that the “I AM” is “the angel of the Lord”, yet because He is “of” the Lord He is not the Father but the Son. The Son therefore (as well as the Father) is the “I AM”– meaning that as described in these verses, the angel of the Lord is God in the person of the Son (see also John 8:58). It can only be concluded therefore that ‘the Old Testament God’ – the one who led and spoke to the patriarchs of old - is none other than Christ Himself– or to put it another way – God Himself in the person of the Son.

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(1 Corinthians 10:1-4)​

if a person cannot understand what you just pointed out in Genesis & Exodus, that the visible manifestation of the invisible God throughout the OT is Himself God while distinct from the invisible God ((whom Jesus called 'Father')), and that it is Christ Himself, being called God and calling Himself God and speaking of Himself exactly equal with God -- then they will never make heads or tails out of John 8 or of this passage in 1 Corinthians or an hundred other things in the NT. they will have to try to change the language or suppose that the apostles are only using metaphors.
if they will not believe, most of the Bible will make no sense. but if they would believe, all of this comes into focus.

 

[Brakelite]

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(1 Corinthians 10:1-4)​

if a person cannot understand what you just pointed out in Genesis & Exodus, that the visible manifestation of the invisible God throughout the OT is Himself God while distinct from the invisible God ((whom Jesus called 'Father')), and that it is Christ Himself, being called God and calling Himself God and speaking of Himself exactly equal with God -- then they will never make heads or tails out of John 8 or of this passage in 1 Corinthians or an hundred other things in the NT. they will have to try to change the language or suppose that the apostles are only using metaphors.
if they will not believe, most of the Bible will make no sense. but if they would believe, all of this comes into focus.

More than that. John wrote his gospel and his letters for the sole purpose of refuting the errors that were entering into the church during his lifetime, one of which today's JWs continue to persist with, that error being that the Father sent a created angel to become a man, as opposed to the Father sending His only begotten Son to become a man and atone for man's transgression of a law equal in holiness and sacredness to the Godhead itself. No angel or created being could atone for transgression to a law to which he was obligated himself to obey. Only divinity could make the Atonement. Only divinity could die. But divinity had to become human/mortal in order to do so. If an angel or a mere man died, it was but a human sacrifice.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm not talking about Trinity, I'm talking about your handling of the Word of God. You can't just change the tense of a word because what it says doesn't make sense to you. That's not right.

Show me one single passage where Jesus said "I am" without stating what he was.....
John 6:48-51...
"I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down out of heaven, so that anyone may eat from it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give for the life of the world also is My flesh.” (NASB)

John 13:34...
" I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another."

John 7:28-29...
" Then Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, “You both know Me and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know. 29 I do know Him, because I am from Him, and He sent Me.”

How many times did Jesus say "I am" without qualifying what he said?
Before Abraham was "I am"......I am what?

In saying, Before Abraham was, I am, not looking at a trinitarian perspective, but only what Jesus says about Himself in this statement, He was saying that He exists in a present tense before Abraham existed in a past tense. Existing in a present tense prior to someone else's past tense can only be said by someone eternal, that is, who lives outside of this space/time continuum, which includes heaven, where the angels live.

Gobbledygook. In context, Jesus is answering a question about his age. You are twisting his words to say what you want them to say.

The point here is not that Jesus existed before Abraham, but that Jesus exists before Abraham. He could know Abraham not by virtue of pre-existance, but by virtue of eternal existance. There is a big difference, though it seem such a small change.

Again, you are applying your own spin to his words......its not that complicated....Jesus was not saying that he was God. He was saying that he existed before Abraham....simple. No conflated explanation necessary.Jesus existed in heaven as a created spirit. He is "the beginning of God's creation" (Revelation 3:14) "The firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15)

Jesus did not have to be God to pay the ransom for mankind.....all he had to be was the equivalent of Adam....a sinless human being. If he was God, then he was immortal...and immortals cannot be put to death by any means, let alone at the hands of mere humans.

This is a passage that seems to trip a lot of people up, and many seem to be tempted to do the same thing you've done, to not take seriously, fully, what Jesus said.

Go to Strongs and see how this error gets perpetuated by bad translation.

Exodus 3:14....
"And God H430 said H559 to Moses H4872, “H1961 I AM WHO H834 ”; I AM H1961”; ,and He said H559, “This H3541 is H3541 what H3541 you shall say H559 to the sons H1121 of Israel H3478: I AM ‘H1961 has sent H7971 me to you.’”

There are three footnotes attached to the expression "I AM WHO I AM"
I AM....."Related to the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be"

The word "WHO" is "'ăšer" which can be translated as any of the following...which, wherewith, because, when, soon, whilst, as if, as when, that, until, much, whosoever, whereas, wherein, whom, whose."
Which is why the Complete Tanakh translates Exodus 3:14 as...
"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

We can see who has fiddled with the translation to fit a trinity can't we? It wasn't the Jews.....but the pro-trinitarian translators who messed with the meaning of the words.
The Jews already knew who their God was, but not this aspect of his name....he would "BE" or "BECOME" whatever he needed TO BE in the future in order to accomplish his purpose.

But if you cannot let go of this blasphemy, that is on you. You cannot ever say that no one told you.....

 

[post]

Show me one single passage where Jesus said "I am" without stating what he was....

• John 8:24: ean gar me pistuesete hoti Ego Eimi
• John 8:28: tote gnosesthe hoti Ego Eimi
• John 8:58: prin Abraam genethai Ego Eimi
• John 13:19: hina pisteusete hotan genetai Ego Eimi
• John 18:5: legei autois Ego Eimi
• John 18:6: hos oun eipen autois Ego Eimi
• John 18:8: eipon humin hoti Ego Eimi

 

[post]

If he was God, then he was immortal...

why do you keep talking about The Living One in 'past tense' ???
do you imagine He's dead?

another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, Who has become a priest,
not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.
(Hebrews 7:15-16)​

 

[post]

..and immortals cannot be put to death by any means, let alone at the hands of mere humans.

With men, impossible, but not with God;
for with God all things are possible.
(Mark 10:27)

No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself.
I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
(John 10:18)​