Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[CrowCross]

Revelation 8
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Are you now going to claim this also is the sixth seal?

 

[The Light]

Are you now going to claim this also is the sixth seal?

No. Why would I do that? Revelation 8 occurs in the 7th seal ONE YEAR wrath of God.

 

[Truth7t7]

Are they each God in their own right?

I believe in three separate persons and one "Godhead" Father, Son, Holy Spirit

What does that tell you, read it real slow

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Scott Downey]

Falling away from what?

I would say a better word is what the older translations used...departure.

The antichrist according to 2 Thes is revealed after the departure which is the gathering or when the restrainer is removed.

Apostasy is a departure from the faith, and the faith was delivered to the saints by God back in the days of Christ and the apostles, 2000 years ago, but corrupt men changed it even back then, nothing new today. All the apostles and Christ warned the church, apostasy was coming.

Jude
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord [b]God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Trying to redefine 2 Thessalonians 2:3 to mean a physical "departure" or rapture rather than a spiritual falling away requires twisting the actual linguistic and historical usage of the term.

Here is the breakdown of the original intent and the Greek behind Paul's words to dismantle that argument completely:

1. The Greek Word: Apostasia (ἀποστασία)​

• The Root: The noun apostasia comes from the verb aphistēmi (apo = "away from", and histēmi = "to stand"). While it carries a literal root meaning of a spatial "leaving from a previous standing," in actual Koine Greek usage—both secular and biblical—it overwhelmingly denotes a defiant revolt, defection, or moral/religious rebellion.
• Biblical Usage: The word apostasia only appears twice in the entire New Testament.
  1. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ("the falling away" / "rebellion")
  2. Acts 21:21, where the Jerusalem elders tell Paul that he is teaching Jews to forsake (apostasia) Moses, meaning a deliberate turning away from the law and covenant tradition.
• Old Testament Background (The Septuagint): Whenever the Greek translators rendered Hebrew terms for rebellion or treachery against God (such as in Joshua 22:22 or 2 Chronicles 29:19), they used apostasia or its cognates to indicate a religious revolt or breach of covenant faith, not a physical airplane-style departure.

2. Context Shuts Down the "Rapture" Interpretation​

• The Immediate Context: Read the rest of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 alongside the verse: "...unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." Paul is warning the Thessalonians that a major, visible moral and theological collapse—a revolt against God—must manifest before the Antichrist takes center stage.
• The Timeline Collision: If apostasia meant the rapture, Paul would be telling them that the church has to be taken out of the world so that the Antichrist can be revealed. But Paul's entire point to a panicked church was precisely the opposite: Don't let anyone deceive you into thinking the Day of the Lord is already here; those dark markers of lawlessness and deception have to happen first.

3. The Danger of Inventing a "Two-Stage" Escape​

Trying to manufacture a multi-phase exit strategy by splitting Paul’s vocabulary to prop up a pre-tribulation system! But as I correctly pointed out with Jude 3–4, the battle has always been about holding fast to "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints," while guarding against ungodly men who creep in and twist grace.

When people try to turn apostasia into a secret rapture code word, they are missing the solemn warning Paul was giving: a massive, end-time spiritual defection from the truth is coming, and believers need to stay anchored to the pure Word, not looking for a backdoor escape hatch that Jesus and Paul never taught.

In essence, CrowCross, you're a living example of what the apostles and Christ warned the church would come!

 

[PeterAndroz]

I see the trib beginning when the antichrist is revealed after the restrainer is removed.

7 year trib starts after the restrainer is removed.
GREAT trib after a/c is revealed
Your thoughts ?

 

[Truth7t7]

7 year trib starts after the restrainer is removed.
GREAT trib after a/c is revealed
Your thoughts ?

It's a 3.5 year great trib and it starts when the AC is revealed to the world in Jerusalem, and the (Two Witnesses) take their stand against him day for day, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, Plagues from God upon The Beast and his kingdom

 

[Scott Downey]

It's a 3.5 year great trib and it starts when the AC is revealed to the world in Jerusalem, and the (Two Witnesses) take their stand against him day for day, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, Plagues from God upon The Beast and his kingdom

Cool thought there, yes, what is old is new again.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Mary isn't mentioned as having male friends

We live in the 21st century, it's only been roughly in the past 125 years that unsaved women have pushed to be in the town square, let alone Christian women that are taking care of the home and their husband's

A Christian woman has no place or part in having "Male Friends" in a Christian Marriage, it's that simple

Let's just assume that when it was said she knew not a man, she truly never met another man, and even her father was not known to her.

There ya go.
Run along now.

 

[rebuilder 454]

See post 242 I answered that:Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

I know you falsely believe that error.
That was not even close to my question.
Way way off.
Never asked that and never will.
The bible destroys it, but you go against the bible.
So no, i am not asking you anything to do with that error.

The error i have addressed TWICE ALREADY, Is what you implied earlier.
I have asked you twice if you are implying that the AC is not a man, but something else.

So simple, and you made the statement.
If you rather not answer , just tell me." I CANT ANSWER, I MUST BE WRONG"

 

[rebuilder 454]

7 year trib starts after the restrainer is removed.
GREAT trib after a/c is revealed
Your thoughts ?

Pretty much so.
No brainer actually.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There are 24 elders in heaven with crowns. These 24 elders have crowns because Jesus has returned.

2 Timothy 4
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

I would say so.
Close enough.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yeah that stands, the Man of sin is unredeemed man and his religious philosophies that override the revelation of God as to how God saves sinners. Rev 13:8

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Remember when Eve had Cain the child of wicked one ? Notice what she called him Gen 4:1

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Cain brought a offering that God rejected, he didnt bring it in Faith as Abel did. Scripture presents the way of cain as evil Jude 1:11

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Cain was of the wicked one 1 Jn 3:12

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Man unredeemed, unregenerated is the Man of sin !

There is nothing there for you to jump to that conclusion.
Junk the bible, and all sorts of garbage emerges to replace it.

This is one of the worst concepts I have ever encountered.
Appalling what you guys manufacture

 

[rebuilder 454]

I know you falsely believe that error.
That was not even close to my question.
Way way off.
Never asked that and never will.
The bible destroys it, but you go against the bible.
So no, i am not asking you anything to do with that error.

The error i have addressed TWICE ALREADY, Is what you implied earlier.
I have asked you twice if you are implying that the AC is not a man, but something else.

So simple, and you made the statement.
If you rather not answer , just tell me." I CANT ANSWER, I MUST BE WRONG"

Edit..nevermind brightflame actually does believe that made up mess.

.....maybe too embarrassed to admit it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No. Why would I do that? Revelation 8 occurs in the 7th seal ONE YEAR wrath of God.

The ac inaugurates the AOD in the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK.
MIDDLE OF 7 YEARS.
That leaves 3.5 years AFTER THE HARVEST OF JEWS in revelation 14.
The wrath part is 3.5 years and commences in Rev 15.

 

[William Barton]

1. The Greek Word for "Coming" (Parousia) Does Not Allow an "Invisible" Return​

Pre-trib and mid-trib theories often rely on dividing Christ's return into two phases: a quiet, secret, or "invisible" coming for the church, followed later by a public, visible "Second Coming" in judgment.

• The Problem: The New Testament uses the word Parousia (presence/arrival) for Christ's return, and it consistently describes it as loud, visible, and unmistakable.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16 explicitly says He descends with a "cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God." That is the exact opposite of quiet or invisible.
• Furthermore, Revelation 1:7 declares: "Behold, every eye will see him, even those who pierced him..." There is no biblical category for a secret, invisible extraction of believers where the rest of the world misses the event entirely.

2. The "Last Trumpet" Destroys a Mid-Trib or Pre-Trib Timeline​

Paul specifically anchors the resurrection and transformation of living believers to a very specific chronological marker: the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52).

• If a group of believers is raptured mid-tribulation, and another group is raptured at the end of the tribulation (at the visible Second Coming), how can there be a "last" trumpet for the second group?
• If trumpets are still sounding for a subsequent gathering of "tribulation saints" years later, the first trumpet wasn't the last one. Paul uses "last" to signify the final punctuation mark of human history, leaving no room for a repeat performance.

3. The New Testament Knows Only One "Gathering Together"​

When Paul addresses the exact concern of believers being confused about the timing of being gathered to Christ, he explicitly ties it to one major event.

• In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3, Paul begs the church not to be shaken by the idea that the Day of the Lord has already come, reminding them that the gathering together to Christ will not happen until the "man of lawlessness" is revealed. He treats the gathering and the revelation of Christ as a single, simultaneous event, not split across two separate timelines years apart.

4. Where Does Scripture Invent "Tribulation Saints" Separated from the Church?​

The idea that God has two separate groups of redeemed people with two entirely different destiny timelines—one body raptured early, and another group of "tribulation saints" caught up later—violates the core New Testament unity of the Body of Christ.

• Paul states in Ephesians 4:4–5 that there is "one body and one Spirit... one hope to which you were called."
• Splitting the redeemed into separate classes with separate extraction dates turns the "one hope" into two entirely different hopes.

Parousia (Greek Dictrebellion

1. The Greek Word for "Coming" (Parousia) Does Not Allow an "Invisible" Return​

Pre-trib and mid-trib theories often rely on dividing Christ's return into two phases: a quiet, secret, or "invisible" coming for the church, followed later by a public, visible "Second Coming" in judgment.

• The Problem: The New Testament uses the word Parousia (presence/arrival) for Christ's return, and it consistently describes it as loud, visible, and unmistakable.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16 explicitly says He descends with a "cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God." That is the exact opposite of quiet or invisible.
• Furthermore, Revelation 1:7 declares: "Behold, every eye will see him, even those who pierced him..." There is no biblical category for a secret, invisible extraction of believers where the rest of the world misses the event entirely.

2. The "Last Trumpet" Destroys a Mid-Trib or Pre-Trib Timeline​

Paul specifically anchors the resurrection and transformation of living believers to a very specific chronological marker: the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52).

• If a group of believers is raptured mid-tribulation, and another group is raptured at the end of the tribulation (at the visible Second Coming), how can there be a "last" trumpet for the second group?
• If trumpets are still sounding for a subsequent gathering of "tribulation saints" years later, the first trumpet wasn't the last one. Paul uses "last" to signify the final punctuation mark of human history, leaving no room for a repeat performance.

3. The New Testament Knows Only One "Gathering Together"​

When Paul addresses the exact concern of believers being confused about the timing of being gathered to Christ, he explicitly ties it to one major event.

• In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3, Paul begs the church not to be shaken by the idea that the Day of the Lord has already come, reminding them that the gathering together to Christ will not happen until the "man of lawlessness" is revealed. He treats the gathering and the revelation of Christ as a single, simultaneous event, not split across two separate timelines years apart.

4. Where Does Scripture Invent "Tribulation Saints" Separated from the Church?​

The idea that God has two separate groups of redeemed people with two entirely different destiny timelines—one body raptured early, and another group of "tribulation saints" caught up later—violates the core New Testament unity of the Body of Christ.

• Paul states in Ephesians 4:4–5 that there is "one body and one Spirit... one hope to which you were called."
• Splitting the redeemed into separate classes with separate extraction dates turns the "one hope" into two entirely different hopes.

o Parousia (Greek παρουσια) = "presence, arrival."
o "Last trump"= seventh ("last" of seven) trump. See Revelation 7:15.

IMO the sequence here is:
o. Trumpets sound, signaling an announcement.
o. Scroll is read aloud, describing the rebellion and the punishment for it.
o. Bowl (hot oil torture) executes the punishment

Parousia (Green παρυσια = "arrival") is described in Revelation 19:11-21.

We compare ourselves with one another, and thereby feel we are not so bad, because we have never experienced sinless perfection.

 

[CrowCross]

No. Why would I do that? Revelation 8 occurs in the 7th seal ONE YEAR wrath of God.

They both describe a situation with the sun where it's dark.
When you apply the same criteria that you derive a sixth seal rapture...you can also apply the same comparison to Rev 8 and arrive at the same conclusion.

 

[JimKnox]

You have said you are midtrib - believing in 2 future coming of Christ.

And still you call me pretrib, dispensational and a Jesuit.

 

[CrowCross]

Trying to redefine 2 Thessalonians 2:3 to mean a physical "departure" or rapture rather than a spiritual falling away requires twisting the actual linguistic and historical usage of the term.

There in NO mentioning of a "spiritual falling away" in the verse....YOU, YOU, YOU add it to the verse assuming it is there when it isn't.

 

[CrowCross]

7 year trib starts after the restrainer is removed.
GREAT trib after a/c is revealed
Your thoughts ?

I agree.
I see the tribulation increasing in tribulation as time moves on. Surely the 4 horsemen create a tribulation when one reads the description...war, famine, pestilence, poverty, 1/4 of the population dies....but when the Antichrist sits in the temple and declares himself as god I see an increase of tribulation. Some consider this increased tribulations as the GREAT tribulation portion of the 7 year tribulation.

 

[WPM]

And still you call me pretrib, dispensational and a Jesuit.

The "2 future comings of Christ" belief was invented by the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza in the early 1800s to infiltrate evangelical Protestantism. You have sadly bought into that lie. Sad!

Also, you have been unable to support this from the Old Testament, the New Testament, or the book of Revelation. I wonder why?