Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[WPM]

The ac inaugurates the AOD in the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK.
MIDDLE OF 7 YEARS.
That leaves 3.5 years AFTER THE HARVEST OF JEWS in revelation 14.
The wrath part is 3.5 years and commences in Rev 15.

1. Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation?
2. Is Revelation 19 your 3rd rapture?
3. Where is your tribulation period following Matthew 24:44 (or any other rapture passage)?
4. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
5. Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
6. Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
7. Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
8. Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
9. Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
10. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
11. Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
12. Show us any Scripture that teaches there are "two" future "raptures"?
13. Where in the Bible does it teach that "the fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures”?
14. Where in the Scriptures does it teach that “the two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures”?
15. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?
16. Show us any Scripture that teaches "the Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing"?
17. Show us any Scripture that teaches there is a "one-year wrath of God"?

 

[CrowCross]

The "2 future comings of Christ" belief was invented by the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza in the early 1800s to infiltrate evangelical Protestantism. You have sadly bought into that lie. Sad!

Reference please.

 

[WPM]

7 year trib starts after the restrainer is removed.
GREAT trib after a/c is revealed
Your thoughts ?

How about actually showing us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming, instead of always voicing personal opinions?

 

[CrowCross]

1. Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation?
2. Is Revelation 19 your 3rd rapture?
3. Where is your tribulation period following Matthew 24:44 (or any other rapture passage)?
4. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
5. Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
6. Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
7. Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
8. Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
9. Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
10. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
11. Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
12. Show us any Scripture that teaches there are "two" future "raptures"?
13. Where in the Bible does it teach that "the fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures”?
14. Where in the Scriptures does it teach that “the two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures”?
15. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?
16. Show us any Scripture that teaches "the Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing"?
17. Show us any Scripture that teaches there is a "one-year wrath of God"?

In your 17 cut and paste questions I see a lot of strawman assumptions.

 

[CrowCross]

How about actually showing us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming, instead of always voicing personal opinions?

2 Thes 2 would be the rapture described in 1 Thes 4....I assume you means that to be the second coming with the advent of baby Jesus as the first coming and Jesus returning on a white horse as the 3rd coming.

Is that correct?

 

[Davy]

There in NO mentioning of a "spiritual falling away" in the verse....YOU, YOU, YOU add it to the verse assuming it is there when it isn't.

Most certainly is the idea of a FALLING AWAY FROM CHRIST idea by Apostle Paul in that 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Scripture.

That phrase "falling away" (KJV) is the Greek apostasia, and is where our English word 'apostasy' comes from:



NT:646
apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]:
KJV - falling away, forsake.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Definition of apostasy noun from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

apostasy​

noun
/əˈpɒstəsi/ /əˈpɑːstəsi/[uncountable] (formal)

1. the act of rejecting your former religious or political beliefs
   • Apostasy was punishable by death under the country's strict religious laws.

 

[JimKnox]

Falling away from what?

I would say a better word is what the older translations used...departure.

The antichrist according to 2 Thes is revealed after the departure which is the gathering or when the restrainer is removed.

Well I suppose you would naturally need to change the word so it supports your view, huh?
Lots of people do that.
(Rant coming)
They change (sodomy) into (sexual sin) so they can avoid the implications of the correct word. Not saying you are a (sodomist); but it's the first thing to come to mind due to the current environment in the liberal churchianity. Mess with the Book and you get a messed up mind. ( rant over)

The word that was used is "falling away".
Paul calls is THE falling away. Apostasia: it is where we get the transliterated word: apostasy. Apostasy is NOT the Rapture, my friend. It is THE falling away from the true faith.

The "2 future comings of Christ" belief was invented by the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza in the early 1800s to infiltrate evangelical Protestantism. You have sadly bought into that lie. Sad!

Also, you have been unable to support this from the Old Testament, the New Testament, or the book of Revelation. I wonder why?

There ya go again: you eisegete the Bible and then you eisegete my posts.
How am I expected to reply to your junk when you have it in your head that I said or believe things I never said? I am not even an Evangelical.
Again, you use the wrong word. You say UNABLE when obviously I have been UNWILLING. Ever since my first interaction with you I saw that you ascribe things to me that I never said. I have never been one who argues with a liar.
Poke, poke, poke.

 

[JimKnox]

1. Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation?
2. Is Revelation 19 your 3rd rapture?
3. Where is your tribulation period following Matthew 24:44 (or any other rapture passage)?
4. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
5. Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
6. Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
7. Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
8. Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
9. Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
10. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
11. Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
12. Show us any Scripture that teaches there are "two" future "raptures"?
13. Where in the Bible does it teach that "the fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures”?
14. Where in the Scriptures does it teach that “the two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures”?
15. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?
16. Show us any Scripture that teaches "the Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing"?
17. Show us any Scripture that teaches there is a "one-year wrath of God"?

Attention K-Mart shoppers:
The preceding post was not expecting answers. It was a exercise is self-congratulatory back slapping.

 

[Davy]

I agree.
I see the tribulation increasing in tribulation as time moves on. Surely the 4 horsemen create a tribulation when one reads the description...war, famine, pestilence, poverty, 1/4 of the population dies....but when the Antichrist sits in the temple and declares himself as god I see an increase of tribulation. Some consider this increased tribulations as the GREAT tribulation portion of the 7 year tribulation.

The coming Antichrist whacking everyone during the "great tribulation" is not what God's Word shows how the tribulation will be. Jesus showed there will be no more wars in that time; the beast will have power over all nations and peoples (Rev.13:4-8). The majority of the world, including deceived Christian brethren, will bow to that coming false-Messiah thinking he is God having come. They would not be fooled into believing that if the coming false-Messiah went around whacking everyone. That is why Lord Jesus was warning us that when they shall say, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", to not believe it (Matthew 24:23).

Thus the idea of "tribulation" per the actual Bible descriptions about the end is about a time of world peace and prosperity for the deceived, their being fooled being their 'tribulation'.

But for Christ's elect who are sealed with God's Seal and will NOT be deceived, it's those of us that will reject that coming false-Messiah which he and his deceived servants will come after. And we shall be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan to give a WITNESS against the beast with The Holy Spirit speaking through us (Mark 13). Jesus said for us to not premeditate what we will say beforehand, because it won't be us speaking, but God through The Holy Spirit. And that... is what the end of Joel 2 is actually pointing to for during the coming tribulation, which Peter quoted in Acts 2 about the cloven tongue. The TRUE cloven tongue is going manifest through Christ's servants when delivered up, and each peoples will hear us speaking in the very dialects of their languages of birth!

 

[JimKnox]

Falling away from what?

I would say a better word is what the older translations used...departure.

The antichrist according to 2 Thes is revealed after the departure which is the gathering or when the restrainer is removed.

Well I suppose you would naturally need to change the word so it supports your view, huh?
Lots of people do that.
(Rant coming)
They change (sodomy) into (sexual sin) so they can avoid the implications of the correct word. Not saying you are a (sodomist); but it's the first thing to come to mind due to the current environment in the liberal churchianity. Mess with the Book and you get a messed up mind. ( rant over)

The word that was used is "falling away".
Paul calls is THE falling away. Apostasia: it is where we get the transliterated word: apostasy. Apostasy is NOT the Rapture, my friend. It is THE falling away from the true faith.

 

[The Light]

The ac inaugurates the AOD in the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK.
MIDDLE OF 7 YEARS.
That leaves 3.5 years AFTER THE HARVEST OF JEWS in revelation 14.

Yes, the AOD is set up in the middle of the week.

How can there be 3.5 years after the harvest of the Jews.

The AOD is set up in the middle of the week. That is when the time of Jacobs trouble begins. That means from the time the great tribulation begins there are 3.5 years remaining.

The Jews are harvested in Revelation 14 after the tribulation which we can prove here. The following verse is the great tribulation.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Then Jesus comes for the harvest.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle

Here is what happens at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

We can see this event in Isaiah 34.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

We can also see that the wrath of God which is the 7th seal lasts one year.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Until you understand that coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal you are not going to get it. You are able to understand that there are two raptures. Few get that far. Why are you having trouble understand that the second rapture occurs at 6th seal? The righteous believing Jews of the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured at the 6th seal as believers are NOT appointed to wrath.

The wrath part is 3.5 years and commences in Rev 15.

As I have shown repeatedly wrath one year.

Wrath begins when the 7th seal is opened and first trumpet sounds. Wrath also begins when the 7th seal is opened and the first vial is poured. The trumpets and vials happen in the same timeframe. When you are reading Revelation 16 you are a different view with different information of Revelation 8-11.

 

[The Light]

They both describe a situation with the sun where it's dark.
When you apply the same criteria that you derive a sixth seal rapture...you can also apply the same comparison to Rev 8 and arrive at the same conclusion.

No you can't. The sixth seal has Jesus returning immediately after the great tribulation. There is a harvest, the second harvest, to remove the righteous from the earth as believers are not appointed to wrath. The events of Rev 8 occur in the 7th seal wrath of God.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, the AOD is set up in the middle of the week.

How can there be 3.5 years after the harvest of the Jews.

The AOD is set up in the middle of the week. That is when the time of Jacobs trouble begins. That means from the time the great tribulation begins there are 3.5 years remaining.

The Jews are harvested in Revelation 14 after the tribulation which we can prove here. The following verse is the great tribulation.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Then Jesus comes for the harvest.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle

Here is what happens at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

We can see this event in Isaiah 34.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

We can also see that the wrath of God which is the 7th seal lasts one year.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Until you understand that coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal you are not going to get it. You are able to understand that there are two raptures. Few get that far. Why are you having trouble understand that the second rapture occurs at 6th seal? The righteous believing Jews of the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured at the 6th seal as believers are NOT appointed to wrath.


As I have shown repeatedly wrath one year.

Wrath begins when the 7th seal is opened and first trumpet sounds. Wrath also begins when the 7th seal is opened and the first vial is poured. The trumpets and vials happen in the same timeframe. When you are reading Revelation 16 you are a different view with different information of Revelation 8-11.

Like I said
The 2nd coming is on white horses IN POWER AND GLORY. Rev 19.
That is the ONLY coming in power and glory.
The ONLY ONE.

Go back and fix that.
That one thing is overwhelming.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No you can't. The sixth seal has Jesus returning immediately after the great tribulation. There is a harvest, the second harvest, to remove the righteous from the earth as believers are not appointed to wrath. The events of Rev 8 occur in the 7th seal wrath of God.

Rev 6 is LOOKING FORWARD TO REV 19, the second coming.

 

[CrowCross]

Most certainly is the idea of a FALLING AWAY FROM CHRIST idea by Apostle Paul in that 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Scripture.

That phrase "falling away" (KJV) is the Greek apostasia, and is where our English word 'apostasy' comes from:



NT:646
apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]:
KJV - falling away, forsake.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Definition of apostasy noun from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

apostasy​

noun
/əˈpɒstəsi/ /əˈpɑːstəsi/[uncountable] (formal)

1. the act of rejecting your former religious or political beliefs
   • Apostasy was punishable by death under the country's strict religious laws.

There's more than your simple explanation...

When it comes to the proper interpretation of 2 Thes 2:1-8 we MUST remember CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT.

This post will show the proper context.

Here's the scripture for easy reference....

1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion DEPARTURE comes first, and the man of lawlessnesss revealed, the son of destruction,4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

In verse 1 and 2 the Thessalonians Paul was writing to had received a letter saying they were currently in the "day of the Lord"


Paul straightened that out with his simple explaination. In fact Paul said it TWICE in different words.

The first time Paul said...this must happen concerning "our being gathered together to him," which is the rapture "catching up" of the church which the Thessalonians had learned about in 1 Thes 4 ...and then the "day of the Lord" will occur.


Paul said this is the order in verse 3.


Here is the order...

1) Departure. (apostacy....646. apostasia)
2) Man of lawlessnesss revealed.
3) Day of the Lord.

Paul then went on to say it again expanding on the events with different words in verses 6-8.


Here is the order..

1) Restrainer must be removed. (The Christians working through the power of the Holy Spirit are removed...raptured.)
2) The lawless one will be revealed.
3) Then Jesus will kill the lawless one when He comes. (at the end of the Day of the Lord)

No where in the two descriptions that follow the same order presented above is there a mention of a spiritual departure..... It's just not there.

The Amillennialist must show where each of the two descriptions present a spiritual revolt

To continue...

As we know, the word 646. apostasia is used in verse 3.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand")


The word apostasía means....stand away from.


"Stand away from" has a physical meaning to it. A physical departure is implied.

As I said NO WHERE is there a mentioning of a spiritual revolt or falling away. These verses are about the "gahering". That's the context.

In fact the earliest translations used the word DEPART...

The 4th generation Latin Vulgate used the word DEPARTURE.
The 1384 Wycliffe bible used DEPARTURE
The 1388 Wycliffe Purvey bible used DEPARTURE
The 1526 Tyndale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1535 Coverdale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1539 Crammer bible used DEPARTURE
The 1540 Great bible used DEPARTURE
The 1560 Geneva bible used DEPARTING
The 1576 Breeches bible used DEPARTING
The 1582 Rhiems bible used REVOLT...The first complete English Catholic translation.
The 1583 Beza bible used DEPARTING
The 1608 Geneva bible used DEPARTING



If you noticed the word was improperly changed in 1582.

Note: The Rheims translators explicitly rejected "departing" because they wanted to frame the text as a prophecy against the Protestant Reformation. By using "revolt," they directly accused the Protestants of causing the end-times apostasia by revolting against the Roman Catholic Church and the authority of the Pope.

The changing of the world was a theological bias based reason ...rather than a literal direct translation.

The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard or perception of the word "apostate" seen in modern bibles.

The joy of an Amillennialist should have is that as christians if we are alive at the resurrection/rapture event...we will depart, be taken, caught up, stand away from with Jesus and not experience the wrath of the "day of the Lord"

We should encourage each other with those words. 1 Thes 4:18

 

[WPM]

In your 17 cut and paste questions I see a lot of strawman assumptions.

I agree. These are some of the claims these men have made. I am not saying all Pretribs believe this. BTW, I never addressed them at you.

Now, will you address the questions I addressed to you?

 

[WPM]

Attention K-Mart shoppers:
The preceding post was not expecting answers. It was a exercise is self-congratulatory back slapping.

These are some of the claims these men have made. I am not saying all Pretribs believe this. BTW, I never addressed them at you.

Now, will you address the questions I addressed to you?

 

[WPM]

2 Thes 2 would be the rapture described in 1 Thes 4....I assume you means that to be the second coming with the advent of baby Jesus as the first coming and Jesus returning on a white horse as the 3rd coming.

Is that correct?

Yes.

 

[CrowCross]

Like I said
The 2nd coming is on white horses IN POWER AND GLORY. Rev 19.
That is the ONLY coming in power and glory.
The ONLY ONE.

Go back and fix that.
That one thing is overwhelming.

besides the white horse issue....Jesus says He will return when the times will be like the days of Noah and Lot...the description tells os people getting married, buying and selling, planting and harvesting....and in no way does this fit the description of the end of the tribulation. It does fit exactly what the times will be like prior to the beginning of the tribulation.

 

[CrowCross]

Well I suppose you would naturally need to change the word so it supports your view, huh?
Lots of people do that.
(Rant coming)
They change (sodomy) into (sexual sin) so they can avoid the implications of the correct word. Not saying you are a (sodomist); but it's the first thing to come to mind due to the current environment in the liberal churchianity. Mess with the Book and you get a messed up mind. ( rant over)

The word that was used is "falling away".
Paul calls is THE falling away. Apostasia: it is where we get the transliterated word: apostasy. Apostasy is NOT the Rapture, my friend. It is THE falling away from the true faith.

See post 415 in this thread.