ScottA
Well-Known Member
No, that is not true (not physically). That's an oxymoron.
That doesn't even qualify to be called "resurrection." It just shows you don't actually know the meaning of the word, or that of the first resurrection or the last.
Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ
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That doesn't even qualify to be called "resurrection." It just shows you don't actually know the meaning of the word, or that of the first resurrection or the last.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
ScottA
Well-Known Member
To say nothing of Jesus' warnings to "take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness", or “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
ScottA
Well-Known Member
You have cited the origins of the cutting in two, but I have cited the fulfillment by Jesus, involving the born again.
As for what Christians believe in this life effecting being with God in heaven, it is not what one believes that "defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”
Davy
Well-Known Member
Nope. Those Rev.4 & 5 Chapters are a future-forward view for AFTER Jesus has returned; that's why they are that the throne and have already received their crowns. The rewards, the crowns, are not handed out until after Jesus' future return.
That battle of Armageddon happens on the 7th Vial, which is the same timing as the 7th Trumpet. That means within this present world timing. The 7th Vial and 7th Trumpet happen on the very LAST DAY of this world, which is why Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 that those in Christ still alive will be 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" on that "last trump."
What you have bought into is men's doctrines ADDED to the Scripture, like a false separation of Christ's only one more coming into two more comings.
The 144,000 of Rev.7 are Christians of the 'seed' of Israel. And they are shown there having been prepared to go through... the "great tribulation", because of their being Sealed with God's Seal. Rev.7:9 about the "great multitude" represents the Sealed of the Gentiles.
The Rev.14:1-5 verses are a future-forward view for AFTER Christ's return. It is the same timing as Rev.15:2-4. That song is only sung by the elect AFTER Christ's future return.
I'm not the one with the interpretation problem. I can easily read what Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul both revealed the timing of His future return would be, i.e., AFTER the tribulation like Jesus said, and on the day of the future resurrection like Paul said (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).
You simply are spiritually drunken on a doctrine of men called a Pre-trib Rapture theory that was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Rev 4 and 5 are a future view of what happens when Jesus returns for the Church, His bride, BEFORE the great tribulation. The great tribulation begins the time of Jacobs trouble which are for the Jews. There are 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel and that clock starts when the AOD is set up in the Temple. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened as we see in the Word of God.
Bingo. Davy you got one. You found a nut.
The end of the age occurs at the 6th seal, not the 7th trumpet. Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the second harvest seen here. Then the 7th seal is opened and the trumpets and vials occur which is God's wrath.
Revelation 14
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Nothing added. You are without understanding. There are two raptures........two folds.
John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
The first fold is the Church as we know Him and He knows us. Israel has been blinded. Part of Israel will have their blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The Lord tells us He is coming immediately after the Great Tribulation. That happens at the 6th seal. The Lord also warns us that He is coming in an hour that you think not. You don't seem to understand or believe that.
The Lord also tells us that believers are not appointed to wrath.
1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
And yet in your view you have the Church on the earth during the trumpets and vials of God's wrath.
That alone should be proof that your understanding of end times is not correct.
There are two raptures. Until you understand that, you don't understand.
The 144,000 are of 12 tribes. They are Jews. Yes, they are believers because their blindness has been removed. The Church is already in heaven as we are the first fold.
The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the fig tree at her first time. The fig tree has two harvests, and Israel was to be the first harvest. However, they served Baalpeor, and would no longer be the first harvest. The Gentiles become the first harvest.
Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
This is why there are 144,000 first fruits from 12 tribes. The fathers of Israel were not first fruits. After the Church is raptured we start over. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.
There are two raptures. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you will stop leading believers from the truth.
Also. If you understood what you are reading you would understand that the 144,000 are not sealed to go through the great tribulation. They are sealed because they are believers. You think that the great tribulation which is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God which are the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath are the same thing. They are not.
The 144,000 go through PART of the great tribulation. They are removed from the earth as first fruits. The rest of the 12 tribes across the earth will be hunted and killed. If the great tribulation is not cut short there would be no flesh raptured alive unto salvation at the 6th seal.
Revelation 14:1-5 is Jesus coming for the first fruits of the second harvest. The second harvest occurs at the 6th seal. Those that are raptured are JEWS.
The ones that victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews. The Church is already in heaven before the great tribulation begins. The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble.........not Gentiles trouble.
Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
So you think. Yeah, fair enough, but you're very wrong about that, and you can call that my opinion if you want... I have no issue with that. And I will say, though, "how time actually works" is a complete non sequitur.
<chuckles> Yeah, you can close your mind if you want, surely...
So you don't think Jesus was bodily resurrected... Wow. Okay. But you know, after His resurrection... Wow. Yeah, so...:
- Before His crucifixion, He told them three times beforehand that He would be crucified and subsequently bodily resurrected
- After His resurrection...
- His body was no longer in the tomb, at the very least
- He was seen by Mary Magdalene (who recognized Him when He called her by name and then fell down at His feet in worship), and the two men on the road to Emmaus shortly after that (and had dinner with those two men, who recognized Him when He had finished explaining to them all that was written about Him in the Scriptures)
- He was seen by the rest of His disciples shortly after that, showing them His hands and feet (with the marks from the nails, of course), inviting Thomas, even, to touch His wounds, and ate (fish) with them
- And He was here on earth for another 40 days, as you know, and seen by many folks... <smile>
LOL! Yeah no. <smile>
Wow. Okay, well, I would turn that right back around and direct it right back at you, Scott. Again, the overwhelming evidence is on my side, not yours.
Resurrection... well I thiiiiiiink... it's a raising up from the dead to life... <chuckles> I hope we're good on that, but maybe not. <smile>
I'm pretty sure, though, we disagree on what the first and second/last resurrections are... <smile> The second/last resurrection is bodily: "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." For us Christians, those of us in Christ, we will be resurrected to life... and we will then be fully ~ not just in spirit, so in part, which is now, for those of us born again of the Spirit, raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ ~ spiritual, meaning of the Spirit, fully of God... one with Christ, even as the Father is in Christ and Christ is in the Father... fully conformed to the image of Christ.
Oh, my...
Right...
Hmmm... well Jesus, the second Person of the triune God, did fulfill that covenant, yes, and it certainly "involved the born again," although that seems a bit of an awkward way to characterize it... Yeah, so this is reeeeeeally important, because it shapes understanding of the rest of Scripture, and for what should be obvious reasons... So, some questions for you:
- What is a covenant, Scott?
- And following from that, Scott, what do you think, God covenanted with Abraham (and his progeny, through Isaac, the child of the promise) to do? By putting Abram into a deep sleep while He walked between the cut-in-two animals by Himself, what was He covenanting to do, regarding both Himself and Abram (and his progeny through Isaac)?
- And so, then, following from the first two questions, how did Jesus, the second Person of the triune God, fulfill this covenant?
Ahhh, that would be 'affecting,' not 'effecting'...
Hmmm... yeah, so, it would actually be supportive of what you were saying if it were not in a completely different context that you are making it out to be or trying to put it in. <chuckles>
Jesus says, virtually in the same breath, "Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?" He's obviously talking about food and referring to the ceremonial (Levitical) food laws, the observing of which the Pharisees thought necessary for and effectual unto salvation. Which was not then and is not now the case at all; what one eats (or doesn't eat) does not make one gain us salvation, cannot make us holy, which no man can do for himself anyway, of course. And then He goes on to say, "But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander." I mean, we're all sinners (which you may or may not believe, and if not, that's another... issue), but nothing I have said in this exchange with you or anywhere else on this board to anyone else even approaches those things. Actually, that might even apply to you, Scott, because you have said some slanderous things... So again, quit with the "gotcha grabs," because, like I said, you are reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bad at it. <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
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