ScottA
Well-Known Member
No, that is not true (not physically). That's an oxymoron.
That doesn't even qualify to be called "resurrection." It just shows you don't actually know the meaning of the word, or that of the first resurrection or the last.
Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ
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That doesn't even qualify to be called "resurrection." It just shows you don't actually know the meaning of the word, or that of the first resurrection or the last.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
ScottA
Well-Known Member
To say nothing of Jesus' warnings to "take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness", or “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
ScottA
Well-Known Member
You have cited the origins of the cutting in two, but I have cited the fulfillment by Jesus, involving the born again.
As for what Christians believe in this life effecting being with God in heaven, it is not what one believes that "defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”
Davy
Well-Known Member
Nope. Those Rev.4 & 5 Chapters are a future-forward view for AFTER Jesus has returned; that's why they are that the throne and have already received their crowns. The rewards, the crowns, are not handed out until after Jesus' future return.
That battle of Armageddon happens on the 7th Vial, which is the same timing as the 7th Trumpet. That means within this present world timing. The 7th Vial and 7th Trumpet happen on the very LAST DAY of this world, which is why Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 that those in Christ still alive will be 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" on that "last trump."
What you have bought into is men's doctrines ADDED to the Scripture, like a false separation of Christ's only one more coming into two more comings.
The 144,000 of Rev.7 are Christians of the 'seed' of Israel. And they are shown there having been prepared to go through... the "great tribulation", because of their being Sealed with God's Seal. Rev.7:9 about the "great multitude" represents the Sealed of the Gentiles.
The Rev.14:1-5 verses are a future-forward view for AFTER Christ's return. It is the same timing as Rev.15:2-4. That song is only sung by the elect AFTER Christ's future return.
I'm not the one with the interpretation problem. I can easily read what Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul both revealed the timing of His future return would be, i.e., AFTER the tribulation like Jesus said, and on the day of the future resurrection like Paul said (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).
You simply are spiritually drunken on a doctrine of men called a Pre-trib Rapture theory that was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Rev 4 and 5 are a future view of what happens when Jesus returns for the Church, His bride, BEFORE the great tribulation. The great tribulation begins the time of Jacobs trouble which are for the Jews. There are 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel and that clock starts when the AOD is set up in the Temple. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened as we see in the Word of God.
Bingo. Davy you got one. You found a nut.
The end of the age occurs at the 6th seal, not the 7th trumpet. Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the second harvest seen here. Then the 7th seal is opened and the trumpets and vials occur which is God's wrath.
Revelation 14
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Nothing added. You are without understanding. There are two raptures........two folds.
John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
The first fold is the Church as we know Him and He knows us. Israel has been blinded. Part of Israel will have their blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The Lord tells us He is coming immediately after the Great Tribulation. That happens at the 6th seal. The Lord also warns us that He is coming in an hour that you think not. You don't seem to understand or believe that.
The Lord also tells us that believers are not appointed to wrath.
1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
And yet in your view you have the Church on the earth during the trumpets and vials of God's wrath.
That alone should be proof that your understanding of end times is not correct.
There are two raptures. Until you understand that, you don't understand.
The 144,000 are of 12 tribes. They are Jews. Yes, they are believers because their blindness has been removed. The Church is already in heaven as we are the first fold.
The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the fig tree at her first time. The fig tree has two harvests, and Israel was to be the first harvest. However, they served Baalpeor, and would no longer be the first harvest. The Gentiles become the first harvest.
Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
This is why there are 144,000 first fruits from 12 tribes. The fathers of Israel were not first fruits. After the Church is raptured we start over. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.
There are two raptures. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you will stop leading believers from the truth.
Also. If you understood what you are reading you would understand that the 144,000 are not sealed to go through the great tribulation. They are sealed because they are believers. You think that the great tribulation which is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God which are the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath are the same thing. They are not.
The 144,000 go through PART of the great tribulation. They are removed from the earth as first fruits. The rest of the 12 tribes across the earth will be hunted and killed. If the great tribulation is not cut short there would be no flesh raptured alive unto salvation at the 6th seal.
Revelation 14:1-5 is Jesus coming for the first fruits of the second harvest. The second harvest occurs at the 6th seal. Those that are raptured are JEWS.
The ones that victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews. The Church is already in heaven before the great tribulation begins. The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble.........not Gentiles trouble.
Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
So you think. Yeah, fair enough, but you're very wrong about that, and you can call that my opinion if you want... I have no issue with that. And I will say, though, "how time actually works" is a complete non sequitur.
<chuckles> Yeah, you can close your mind if you want, surely...
So you don't think Jesus was bodily resurrected... Wow. Okay. But you know, after His resurrection... Wow. Yeah, so...:
- Before His crucifixion, He told them three times beforehand that He would be crucified and subsequently bodily resurrected
- After His resurrection...
- His body was no longer in the tomb, at the very least
- He was seen by Mary Magdalene (who recognized Him when He called her by name and then fell down at His feet in worship), and the two men on the road to Emmaus shortly after that (and had dinner with those two men, who recognized Him when He had finished explaining to them all that was written about Him in the Scriptures)
- He was seen by the rest of His disciples shortly after that, showing them His hands and feet (with the marks from the nails, of course), inviting Thomas, even, to touch His wounds, and ate (fish) with them
- And He was here on earth for another 40 days, as you know, and seen by many folks... <smile>
LOL! Yeah no. <smile>
Wow. Okay, well, I would turn that right back around and direct it right back at you, Scott. Again, the overwhelming evidence is on my side, not yours.
Resurrection... well I thiiiiiiink... it's a raising up from the dead to life... <chuckles> I hope we're good on that, but maybe not. <smile>
I'm pretty sure, though, we disagree on what the first and second/last resurrections are... <smile> The second/last resurrection is bodily: "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." For us Christians, those of us in Christ, we will be resurrected to life... and we will then be fully ~ not just in spirit, so in part, which is now, for those of us born again of the Spirit, raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ ~ spiritual, meaning of the Spirit, fully of God... one with Christ, even as the Father is in Christ and Christ is in the Father... fully conformed to the image of Christ.
Oh, my...
Right...
Hmmm... well Jesus, the second Person of the triune God, did fulfill that covenant, yes, and it certainly "involved the born again," although that seems a bit of an awkward way to characterize it... Yeah, so this is reeeeeeally important, because it shapes understanding of the rest of Scripture, and for what should be obvious reasons... So, some questions for you:
- What is a covenant, Scott?
- And following from that, Scott, what do you think, God covenanted with Abraham (and his progeny, through Isaac, the child of the promise) to do? By putting Abram into a deep sleep while He walked between the cut-in-two animals by Himself, what was He covenanting to do, regarding both Himself and Abram (and his progeny through Isaac)?
- And so, then, following from the first two questions, how did Jesus, the second Person of the triune God, fulfill this covenant?
Ahhh, that would be 'affecting,' not 'effecting'...
Hmmm... yeah, so, it would actually be supportive of what you were saying if it were not in a completely different context that you are making it out to be or trying to put it in. <chuckles>
Jesus says, virtually in the same breath, "Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?" He's obviously talking about food and referring to the ceremonial (Levitical) food laws, the observing of which the Pharisees thought necessary for and effectual unto salvation. Which was not then and is not now the case at all; what one eats (or doesn't eat) does not make one gain us salvation, cannot make us holy, which no man can do for himself anyway, of course. And then He goes on to say, "But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander." I mean, we're all sinners (which you may or may not believe, and if not, that's another... issue), but nothing I have said in this exchange with you or anywhere else on this board to anyone else even approaches those things. Actually, that might even apply to you, Scott, because you have said some slanderous things... So again, quit with the "gotcha grabs," because, like I said, you are reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bad at it. <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
You have not been listening for some time now, so that's enough ("He who is wrong, let him be wrong still"). You obviously do not know how Jesus fulfills the "cut him in two" prophecy...even though I told you how.So you think. Yeah, fair enough, but you're very wrong about that, and you can call that my opinion if you want... I have no issue with that. And I will say, though, "how time actually works" is a complete non sequitur.
<chuckles> Yeah, you can close your mind if you want, surely...
So you don't think Jesus was bodily resurrected... Wow. Okay. But you know, after His resurrection... Wow. Yeah, so...:
The overwhelming Scriptural evidence is on my side, not yours, Scott. I mean you basically just said, "I don't have a nose on my face." <smile>
- Before His crucifixion, He told them three times beforehand that He would be crucified and subsequently bodily resurrected
- After His resurrection...
- His body was no longer in the tomb, at the very least
- He was seen by Mary Magdalene (who recognized Him when He called her by name and then fell down at His feet in worship), and the two men on the road to Emmaus shortly after that (and had dinner with those two men, who recognized Him when He had finished explaining to them all that was written about Him in the Scriptures)
- He was seen by the rest of His disciples shortly after that, showing them His hands and feet (with the marks from the nails, of course), inviting Thomas, even, to touch His wounds, and ate (fish) with them
- And He was here on earth for another 40 days, as you know, and seen by many folks... <smile>
LOL! Yeah no. <smile>
Wow. Okay, well, I would turn that right back around and direct it right back at you, Scott. Again, the overwhelming evidence is on my side, not yours.
Resurrection... well I thiiiiiiink... it's a raising up from the dead to life... <chuckles> I hope we're good on that, but maybe not. <smile>
I'm pretty sure, though, we disagree on what the first and second/last resurrections are... <smile> The second/last resurrection is bodily: "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." For us Christians, those of us in Christ, we will be resurrected to life... and we will then be fully ~ not just in spirit, so in part, which is now, for those of us born again of the Spirit, raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ ~ spiritual, meaning of the Spirit, fully of God... one with Christ, even as the Father is in Christ and Christ is in the Father... fully conformed to the image of Christ.
Oh, my...
Right...
Hmmm... well Jesus, the second Person of the triune God, did fulfill that covenant, yes, and it certainly "involved the born again," although that seems a bit of an awkward way to characterize it... Yeah, so this is reeeeeeally important, because it shapes understanding of the rest of Scripture, and for what should be obvious reasons... So, some questions for you:
- What is a covenant, Scott?
- And following from that, Scott, what do you think, God covenanted with Abraham (and his progeny, through Isaac, the child of the promise) to do? By putting Abram into a deep sleep while He walked between the cut-in-two animals by Himself, what was He covenanting to do, regarding both Himself and Abram (and his progeny through Isaac)?
- And so, then, following from the first two questions, how did Jesus, the second Person of the triune God, fulfill this covenant?
Ahhh, that would be 'affecting,' not 'effecting'...
Hmmm... yeah, so, it would actually be supportive of what you were saying if it were not in a completely different context that you are making it out to be or trying to put it in. <chuckles>
Jesus says, virtually in the same breath, "Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?" He's obviously talking about food and referring to the ceremonial (Levitical) food laws, the observing of which the Pharisees thought necessary for and effectual unto salvation. Which was not then and is not now the case at all; what one eats (or doesn't eat) does not make one gain us salvation, cannot make us holy, which no man can do for himself anyway, of course. And then He goes on to say, "But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander." I mean, we're all sinners (which you may or may not believe, and if not, that's another... issue), but nothing I have said in this exchange with you or anywhere else on this board to anyone else even approaches those things. Actually, that might even apply to you, Scott, because you have said some slanderous things... So again, quit with the "gotcha grabs," because, like I said, you are reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bad at it. <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
As for what I "think"--you wrongly assume and accuse, for I have said nothing of what I think.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The future return of Jesus, the second coming, occurs at the 6th seal. Believers are not appointed to wrath.
Jesus comes first for the Church, in an hour that we think not. That is why we are told to watch. The Church will be raptured before the great tribulation as the great tribulation is when God turns his attention to the Jews.
The Jews will know EXACTLY when Jesus is coming. He will come for them immediately AFTER the great tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God. He will come for them at the 6th seal at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. God's feasts are a shadow of things to come.
Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. Believers are not appointed to wrath. The only people on earth will be the two witnesses, those in Israel that flee to a place of protection as they are protected from Gods wrath and unbelievers. All believers, the first fold and the second fold are in heaven and become ONE FOLD, the great multitude.
Believers are in heaven during the ONE YEAR wrath of God. We are at the marriage supper of the Lamb. We return to the earth after one year as part of the armies of heaven for Armageddon.
1 Thessalonians 4 is about the rapture of the Church. This is when the dead in Christ rise at the SECRET RAPTURE. The world will claim the aliens have come and believe the lie. The Jews won't believe the alien story, those whose eyes are opened, as they will know exactly what happened.
Jeremaih 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.
Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27 are talking about the gathering from heaven and earth. This occurs at the 6th seal and is the second coming. The Lords sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 twelve tribes across the earth gathered from the earth BEFORE the wrath of God.
You are simply a blind man, that speaks against truth and doesn't know it. You are Paul before he had the Damascus experience and had His eyes opened. Paul had His eyes opened to Jesus. You need your eyes opened to the FACT that Jesus is coming in an hour that you think not. This is why we are told to WATCH. To those that watch, He will appear a second time.
Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Until you understand that the great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same thing, you are blind.
Until you understand He is coming in an hour that you think not, you are blind.
Until you understand that there are two folds, two raptures, two harvests, you are blind.
As for the John Nelson Darby nonsense, if you were seeking the truth, you would RE-SEARCH this.
Is Jesus coming down to the 1 The 4.17 clouds just a brief stop before He lands in Rev 19.11?
1 The 4.17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 19.11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
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I don't think a landing is found in Rev 19. He eventually lands but not during that battle.
Help me with the verses that describe the 1 Thes 4.17 cloud meeting as a stop over on the way down to Jesus landing on the earth
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I would like to read the verses that teach Jesus coming down into the 1 Thes 4.17 clouds is a short ? stop over on the way down to landing on the ground.
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Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
He went from the Earth to Heaven, and will come down from Heaven to the Earth again.
He stays on the Earth as well:
Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
+++++He went from the Earth to Heaven, and will come down from Heaven to the Earth again.
Yes yet what are the verses that confirm the 1 Thes 4.17 cloud gathering of believers is part of the same journey back down to ground.
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There is one coming left and that's it in that verse and to complete the prophecy he has to return to the ground...so everyone follows him. They don't all just live in the clouds forever, and no scripture says Jesus takes anyone to heaven, or even that he ever returns back to heaven.
The Light
Well-Known Member
No. 1 Thes 4 is talking about the rapture of the Church. The rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened, before the great tribulation. The Lord Himself comes for His bride.
After the great tribulation God turns His attention to Israel. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits from 12 tribes as the Jews will be the second harvest of the fig tree. Immediately after the great tribulation the Lord will come for the 12 tribes across the earth who are the seed of the woman Israel. They will be raptured at the 6th seal. This is the second coming. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. Those raptured go to heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb and are the great multitude.
Then the 7th seal is opened and it is the day of vengeance which is the ONE YEAR wrath of God. At the end wrath, 7th trumpet / 7th vial, the Lord returns for the Day of the Lord with the armies of heaven for Armageddon. After that He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives which is the second advent.
Then it is the time of judgement.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, not what that Scripture shows. Look at what Revelation 11:18 shows once the 7th Trumpet sounds and all the nations of this world become those of The Father and The Son. It is only then that the 'rewards' are handed out to His Church.
No, the "great tribulation" will be upon ALL... nations, specifically the "very elect" of Christ's Church, i.e., those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. That is what the Revelation 13:4-8 and Revelation 17:8 reveals. Everyone else in the WHOLE WORLD will be deceived by the false-Messiah which comes first.
Nope, the symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9:27 has not started yet today. It is represented a a 7 year period, two 1260 day halves. Only the latter half of 1260 days represents the time of "great tribulation". The "abomination of desolation" idol is placed in a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem at the mid point of that 7 years, and that is what will kick off the "great tribulation" of the latter 1260 day period.
Nope again. Per Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4, Lord Jesus gathers His resurrected saints from heaven on the last day, and they descend to earth with Him, with the saints still alive "caught up" to Jesus and the resurrected Church, and ALL... go with Jesus to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, ON EARTH. They do NOT go to Heaven. And that resurrection will only happen on the LAST DAY of this world, like Jesus showed in John 6.
I don't have time to spend all day to show what God's written Word actually says.
And you can try... to put your own words in my mouth, but it will only show dishonesty.
Davy
Well-Known Member
The false Pre-trib Rapture school loves to take Bible Scripture and twist it to fit their pet doctrine. What you did above shows that, as the 6th Seal Scripture and the 1 Thessalonians 5 Scripture are covering different aspects of Christ's future 2nd and only coming.
BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
1 Thessalonians 5:9 is where The Light is pulling from with that idea that the Church is not appointed to wrath. The problem with the Pre-trib Rapture theory, it does not properly know just WHICH WRATH Paul was speaking about.
For example -- Pre-trib wrongly teaches the "wrath" of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is about Satan's wrath during the "great tribulation". It is NOT... about Satan's wrath.
The "wrath" Apostle Paul was pointing to is about GOD's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked on the last day of this world, on the "last trump" and "7th Vial". That is the specific 'wrath' we in Christ are not appointed to. HOW do I know for sure Paul was pointing to GOD's cup of wrath there in verse 9?
It is because at the first of the 1 Thessalonians 5 Chapter, Paul is talking about events to occur on the "day of The LORD", which is the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church. Leading up to that day, Paul shows the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety". Then Paul shows when they start believing that, then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. WHERE did Paul get that idea from?
Paul got that "sudden destruction" idea on the LAST DAY, the "day of The LORD", from the Old Testament prophets. That is how we KNOW Paul was pointing to GOD's cup of wrath poured out on the "7th Vial" upon the wicked. And we, Christ's Church, are not appointed to that.
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