Open Discussion of UR Chapter Four - The Gates of Hell...

[QuantumBit]

What's your perspective on seeking the Kingdom of God Within?
How is this done?

A long time ago, I wondered what 'Kingdom of God Within' meant. Was it our imaginations? Can I imagine virgins chained to a couch and that is the Kingdom of God?

That is when I started studying every verse that contained 'Kingdom of God'. When I added them all up and looked at what they had in common, I concluded that they referred to the Microcosm of Life with an emphasis on the Glorified Body.

The Microcosm of Life includes...

• Particles of Matter
• Four Forces of Nature
• Atoms
• Genomes
• Cells
• Human Anatomy
• Etc.

I began to look for those things in the Bible and ended up finding them all over the place. Now I use that information to 'error check' what others believe. It is like a 'decoder ring'. I can tell who is lying and who is telling the Truth.

 

[Patrick1966]

Question #1) What are the gates of hell?

My understanding is that "Hell" is death but in this context, I believe that Jesus is talking about Satan's worldly system which many people follow and which leads to destruction and death, aka "Hell". I believe that Jesus is saying that Satan and his system will NOT prevail against the church.

 

[Patrick1966]

Question #2) What does it mean to not prevail?

Satan will be unable to prevent ALL of mankind from being saved in the end.

 

[Patrick1966]

How should the church (the Body of Christ) respond to this?

Teach the true message of God that says that ALL of mankind will be saved in the end, as opposed to Satan's deception that God is cruel and sadistic and tortures some of his children FOREVER. Give people hope!

 

[Patrick1966]

Is what that looks like? What a tragic image. Who won?

From the perspective of those that believe Satan's lie that God is puny, uncaring, incompetent, incapable, and eternally vengeful and sadistic, clearly, Satan is the "winner".

 

[Patrick1966]

Universalists are the closest so far to understanding what the Bible teaches. It is no surprise that they are banned on so many Christian forums. People hate Truth.

Amen. Again, my compliments to the ownership and management here that permit people to share, discuss, and advocate differing theological views. @lforrest @GRACE ambassador @Rita @Nancy

 

[Patrick1966]

What is the rock that Jesus will build his church on?
The RCC points to Peter...

Peter is a rock just like all of the apostles are "rocks", The rock, or foundation, or "cornerstone" is God/Jesus and that has ALWAYS been the case.

To believe the Catholic Church is to believe that Moses was referring to the yet-to-come Peter as being "perfect".

Deuteronomy 32:4
“The Rock, his work is perfect,
for all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
just and upright is he.

And while we're at it...

Matthew 16:18 Young’s Literal Translation
And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it

You’ll note that Peter is referred to by Jesus as “a” rock and not the rock.

1 Samuel 2:2 ESV
“There is none holy like the Lord: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:2
He said, “The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer,

Psalm 62:6 ESV
He only is my rock and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be shaken.

Psalm 144:1 ESV
Of David. Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 ESV
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Psalm 18:46 ESV
The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock, and exalted be the God of my salvation—

Matthew 7:24-25 ESV
“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

Psalm 19:14 ESV
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.

1 Peter 2:7-9 ESV
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Isaiah 26:4 ESV
Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord God is an everlasting rock.

Psalm 18:1-2 ESV
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, the servant of the Lord, who addressed the words of this song to the Lord on the day when the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul. He said: I love you, O Lord, my strength. The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

1 Corinthians 3:11-16 ESV
For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Isaiah 51:1 ESV
“Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness, you who seek the Lord: look to the rock from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were dug.


Psalm 61:1-3 ESV
To the choirmaster: with stringed instruments. Of David. Hear my cry, O God, listen to my prayer; from the end of the earth I call to you when my heart is faint. Lead me to the rock that is higher than I, for you have been my refuge, a strong tower against the enemy.

Acts 4:11-13 ESV
This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
(Note: It's interesting to me that the verse in Acts 4:11-13 refers to Jesus as a "stone" rather than a rock).

1Peter 2:4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

 

[Patrick1966]

God/Jesus is THE rock, Peter, Jesus's loyal and faithful servant, is a rock.

 

[lforrest]

Amen. Again, my compliments to the ownership and management here that permit people to share, discuss, and advocate differing theological views. @lforrest @GRACE ambassador @Rita @Nancy View attachment 31993

There are limits, when doctrines start to incorporate new age mysticism and the occult that is not something we want.

 

[Stumpmaster]

That's interesting. Let's test it to see if it works.

I will build my church; and "the Curse of Death" shall not prevail against it.

Does that work? Doesn't seem to.

Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?

 

[Patrick1966]

There are limits, when doctrines start to incorporate new age mysticism and the occult that is not something we want.

At your direction some topics could be relegated to the "unorthodox" sub-forum or perhaps even somewhere in the "non-Christian" forums.

As a follower of Christ I believe that the scriptures teach that Jesus will, eventually, save ALL people. While you may not share that view, you and I are both Christians in that we believe that Jesus is God, that Jesus allowed himself to be crucified as the perfect sacrifice for the sin of mankind, that Jesus was resurrected on the third day, and that all who believe in Jesus and follow his commandments (or at least try) will be saved from damnation.

Is that a fair statement?

 

[Patrick1966]

I just noticed that this thread is in the "unorthodox" sub-forum.

Imagine viewing God's word as "unorthodox", but that is the sad state of the modern Christian church, which views God as an angry, cruel, sadistic, incapable, incompetent, uncaring, forever-vengeful entity.

Jesus teaches us to forgive while torturing people for eternity. Yea. That is mainstream Christian theology. Amazing.

 

[lforrest]

I just noticed that this thread is in the "unorthodox" sub-forum.

Imagine viewing God's word as "unorthodox", but that is the sad state of the modern Christian church, which views God as an angry, cruel, sadistic, incapable, incompetent, uncaring, forever-vengeful entity.

Jesus teaches us to forgive while torturing people for eternity. Yea. That is mainstream Christian theology. Amazing.

Imagine an interpretation of God's word that is supposedly modern, but is not because it has Origens in the third century. It was later denounced as heresy. It is an interpretation that disregards the full council of God revealed in the scriptures. Because God is a person he can get angry, but he is slow to anger. His perfect sense of justice will not let him simply forget an offence, it must be covered by the Blood or paid in full by one's self. He restrains the assertion of his will, and does not rape the minds of the disobedient to bring them into submission. God is incapable of telling a lie, so one should believe him and the clear meaning of his word. And if you are more competent than God at saving the world I invite you to do it without throwing up your hands and saying everyone is already saved. We have no comprehension of forever, to God forever may be as a drop of water in an ocean. Or it may be an ocean next to another ocean, who is to say there isn't much information regarding timelessness. A soul may be in the deep abyss but they could drown in two inches of water.

 

[Patrick1966]

...and saying everyone is already saved.

I believe that the scriptures teach that those that faithfully believe in Christ will be saved from damnation and from death. In other words, when you and I die we will go straight to Heaven and we will NEVER again die. The ungodly will remain DEAD in the ground until their resurrection in Revelation 20. Thereafter it seems that some of them will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Where you and I differ is that you apparently believe that they're thrown in there to be "punished" for eternity whereas I believe that their visit to the LOF will be punitive but punitive for the purpose of correction, purification, and restoration.

I think your belief is based on what I believe are faulty translations that says that people will be thrown into the LOF for "eternity" whereas I believe that the original scriptures intended for the reader to understand that those who went to the LOF are sent there only for a period of time or for an age.

After all, the plethora of scriptures found elsewhere in the Bible SUPPORTS the theology that ALL people, in the end, will be with God!

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:28
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

There are many more, but this should suffice. It can't be any clearer than this. ALL people that ever lived will be with God in his kingdom on the new Earth. Why, because that is God's will! If anyone has a problem with this then their problem is with God.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

 

[Patrick1966]

And if you are more competent than God at saving the world...

I don't know from where you're coming with all this but I've always said that the only path to redemption is through Jesus. My sharing the believe of universal salvation is ALWAYS scriptural. After all, why would I share my own words when I can instead share the word of God, as I did in the post above?

On the contrary, my brother, it was your post that was full of your own opinions and devoid of God's word.

 

[St. SteVen]

My understanding is that "Hell" is death but in this context, I believe that Jesus is talking about Satan's worldly system which many people follow and which leads to destruction and death, aka "Hell". I believe that Jesus is saying that Satan and his system will NOT prevail against the church.

When I launched this topic I had a couple of things in mind. Still percolating in my noggin.
The first thought was, as you wrote, that the gates of hell (or hell) "is talking about Satan's worldly system".

Interesting that it refers to the GATES. In ancient warfare, to breach the gate was a primary offensive task.
The attacking army would even bring a battering ram with them to break the gate. And those inside hoped that
their gate was strong enough to prevail. If that GATE did not prevail, the advancing army would take possession.

In that sense, Jesus would be telling us that he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevent us
from taking possession of its inhabitants. Those under the aforementioned worldly system. (the realm of Satan)

My second thought was that the gates of hell represent the gatekeepers of the hell doctrine. (ECT)
That in the end, they will not prevail. The shift away from the hell doctrine is obvious.

The gates are crumbling. Most churches have pulled back to "eternal separation from God"
as their stated position. Thus leaving room for interpretation. The second indicator is the surge
in the position of Annihilationism. Which also denies ECT. (eternal conscious torment)

Satan will be unable to prevent ALL of mankind from being saved in the end.

Agree.

Teach the true message of God that says that ALL of mankind will be saved in the end, as opposed to Satan's deception that God is cruel and sadistic and tortures some of his children FOREVER. Give people hope!

Agree.

From the perspective of those that believe Satan's lie that God is puny, uncaring, incompetent, incapable, and eternally vengeful and sadistic, clearly, Satan is the "winner".

Agree.
Perhaps both of my thoughts stated above have some validity. Not one or the other. ???

 

[Patrick1966]

In that sense, Jesus would be telling us that he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevent us
from taking possession of its inhabitants. Those under the aforementioned worldly system. (the realm of Satan)

That's a GREAT take!

 

[Patrick1966]

Yes, Jesus's church will overcome the gates of Hell! Brilliant analogy.

 

[St. SteVen]

Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?

Okay.
What would the practical application be?

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, Jesus's church will overcome the gates of Hell! Brilliant analogy.

Yes. Thanks.
I take it as marching orders. To enter the realm of the enemy and take captives.
Jesus was criticized for associating with sinners. What was he doing? Plundering hell.

And furthermore, Jesus demonstrated this well in the three days before his resurrection
from the realm of the dead. (even inside the gates of the lowest "hell") It will happen again.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, Ephesians 4:8-10 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Romans 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.