Open Discussion of UR Chapter Four - The Gates of Hell...

[St. SteVen]

Yes, Jesus's church will overcome the gates of Hell! Brilliant analogy.

Here's the flip side...

What is the church doing instead?

We hold up in our buildings in a tight-knit social construct that prevents meaningful interaction with the outside world.

We are irrelevant to the world. They need a decoder ring to even understand what we are saying.

Last week at work I was walking back from break with my workmates.
One is a Christian, the other a religion iconoclast. (self-described)

The Christian gal was talking about being indwelt by Jesus and covered in His blood.
I said it was good that we couldn't see that. She said this was her protection, exclaiming,
"You can't touch me!" The iconoclast immediately started touching her around the head.
I just laughed with both of them.

Note: A "religion iconoclast" is one that is actively opposed to ALL forms of religion.
I built a bridge by informing him that there is good reason for his position.
We have had some very interesting discussions. (inside the gates of hell)

 

[Patrick1966]

Yes. Thanks.
I take it as marching orders. To enter the realm of the enemy and take captives.
Jesus was criticized for associating with sinners. What was he doing? Plundering hell.

And furthermore, Jesus demonstrated this well in the three days before his resurrection
from the realm of the dead. (even inside the gates of the lowest "hell") It will happen again.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, Ephesians 4:8-10 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Romans 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

My brother, your takes are brilliant and it's evident to me that the Spirit of Truth is in you and this community is fortunate to have your participation.

 

[St. SteVen]

My brother, your takes are brilliant and it's evident to me that the Spirit of Truth is in you and this community is fortunate to have your participation.

I appreciate your supportive attitude. The feeling is mutual, brother.

 

[QuantumBit]

Imagine viewing God's word as "unorthodox"...

Soon, God's Word will be considered 'hate speech' because the "Ancient Council of YouTube and Facebook declared it heresy".

 

[Patrick1966]

Here's the flip side...

What is the church doing instead?

We hold up in our buildings in a tight-knit social construct that prevents meaningful interaction with the outside world.

We are irrelevant to the world. They need a decoder ring to even understand what we are saying.

Last week at work I was walking back from break with my workmates.
One is a Christian, the other a religion iconoclast. (self-described)

The Christian gal was talking about being indwelt by Jesus and covered in His blood.
I said it was good that we couldn't see that. She said this was her protection, exclaiming,
"You can't touch me!" The iconoclast immediately started touching her around the head.
I just laughed with both of them.

Note: A "religion iconoclast" is one that is actively opposed to ALL forms of religion.
I built a bridge by informing him that there is good reason for his position.
We have had some very interesting discussions. (inside the gates of hell)

We are very blessed to have faith and to know the truth. We must remember that and remain humble and gently share God's truth with others and after that it's really up to the Holy Spirit.

 

[QuantumBit]

St. SteVen said:
What's your perspective on seeking the Kingdom of God Within?

I should also mention that the Kingdom of God Within is synonymous with the Third Heaven and Paradise...

2 Corinthians 12:4
"How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Paul visited the Third Heaven and called it 'Paradise'. Jesus said that the Thief would be with him in Paradise...

Luke 23:43
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

So, where is this Paradise that Jesus and the Thief went to? Right here...

Revelation 4:2
"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

The Throne Room is Paradise, the Third Heaven, where those that are Saved are absent from the Body, but present with the LORD...

2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Can we increase our understanding and quantify this a little more? How is 'Paradise' inside of the Body?

​

Paradise... aka... the Kingdom of God Within... aka... the Throne Room is none other than Abraham's Bosom, where the Saved 'rest' with the LORD until the 'Bride' descends...

​

The two become one.

Paradise is now merged with the Tree of Life...

Revelation 2:7
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

And they all lived happily ever after.

 

[St. SteVen]

We are very blessed to have faith and to know the truth. We must remember that and remain humble and gently share God's truth with others and after that it's really up to the Holy Spirit.

That's good.
Although I was giving serious thought to what the truth is today.
Or, better put, what most Christians declare as "the truth".

Which is typically their questionable doctrinal opinion.
Usually delivered like this...

"Should I believe you, or God's TRUTH in the Bible?"
(usually done to end the discussion)
To which I might reply...
"Since when is YOUR doctrinal opinion God's TRUTH in the Bible?"

I avoid using the word "truth" all together.
There is so little that we know for sure.
And I even question that. - LOL

Here's my problem...
I'm a recovering evangelical, Pentecostal, Universalist, and Theistic Agnostic.
At the moment anyway. - LOL
Send help.

 

[St. SteVen]

I should also mention that the Kingdom of God Within is synonymous with the Third Heaven and Paradise...

2 Corinthians 12:4
"How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Paul visited the Third Heaven and called it 'Paradise'. Jesus said that the Thief would be with him in Paradise...

My understanding is that Paul was describing a very unique situation about someone he knew.
Probably not something we can expect of everyone. (or anyone actually)
Not allowed to tell anyone anyway. See vs 4.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 NIV
I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained,
I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven.
Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—
4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

 

[QuantumBit]

My understanding is that Paul was describing a very unique situation about someone he knew.
Probably not something we can expect of everyone. (or anyone actually)
Not allowed to tell anyone anyway. See vs 4.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 NIV
I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained,
I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven.
Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—
4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

I believe that Paul was referring to himself. That is of course debatable.

BTW, did you catch the subtle hint Paul gave?

2 Corinthians 12:3
"And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)"

Although it could be understood to mean that Paul was not sure if he had an 'out of Body experience', there could be an allusion to something else...

• 'Within the Body' = Microcosm of Life
• 'Without the Body' = Macrocosm of Life

I feel like Paul chose those words, in the context of Paradise/Third Heaven, to remind us of something Jesus taught...

Luke 11:39-40
"And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?"

'Within' means 'inward part'. Hmmm...

 

[St. SteVen]

BTW, did you catch the subtle hint Paul gave?

2 Corinthians 12:3
"And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)"

Although it could be understood to mean that Paul was not sure if he had an 'out of Body experience', there could be an allusion to something else...

• 'Within the Body' = Microcosm of Life
• 'Without the Body' = Macrocosm of Life

I did notice that he wrote it twice. For emphasis?

And it could be taken as the one man, or he and Paul.
One was "caught up to the third heaven" and Paul was "caught up to paradise". ???
Two different places, or the same place?

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 NIV
I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained,
I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven.
Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—
4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

 

[Hisman]

Re Opening post -

GOD WINS, HE ALWAYS DOES!!

As in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive. …

 

[Stumpmaster]

Okay.
What would the practical application be?

Deliverance from the curse of death.

Isa 25:8-9 He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken. (9) And it will be said in that day: "Behold, this is our God; We have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the LORD; We have waited for Him; We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."

1Co 15:50-55 Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. (51) Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— (52) in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (53) For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. (54) When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” (55) “Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?”

2Co 5:4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

 

[St. SteVen]

Re Opening post -

GOD WINS, HE ALWAYS DOES!!

As in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive. …

Agree.
We would be interested to read your answers to the four question in the OP. (Post #1) Thanks.