OSAS being False Doctrine!

[L.A.M.B.]

Sorry I had to join in . It is one of most ludicrous arguments that the bible does not show that there is a difference in the SPIRIT UPON and the SPIRIT WITHIN There is a difference and if you would allow it to be shown you from scripture not man you would be able to clear up a lot of confusion. Acts 19:1-5 verses 6 shows the difference but you cannot see it because you cannot see past your Calvinistic understanding. You want to ignore verse 1-5 where Paul makes it clear that the indwelling was given through the baptism in Christ name and lump verse 6 in there but it is not what the scriptures say they say verse 6 was the empowering of witness as in Mark 16:17-20 and Acts 1:8 the bible makes clear distinction that the spirit upon is not for salvation but for witnessing it is signs to confirm the word it is clearly given the reason you must let go of what you learnt from Calvin and see the truth in scripture for it is given for you to trust in and believe God at his word.

The giving of the promised indwelling spirit is clearly taught comes through the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ as Peter said in Acts 2:38 and Paul confirms in Acts 19:1-5. Read Acts 19:1-5 and tell me Paul is not talking about the indwelling spirit coming through the baptism in Christ name and then once he cleared up the wrong baptism because the baptism of John could not give the spirit it only pointed to the baptism in Jesus name in which that one did give the spirit then he laid hands on them to give them the power to confirm the word they will be preaching is from God.

Many have fallen for the lies, having their understanding darkened.

God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.John 4:24.

Notice the difference in the 2 spirits mentioned, the first is capitalized and is the Holy Spirit of God. The 2nd is the spirit of the individual.
Loving God must be what is our upmost goal in everything we are, we must be loving him.“'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. ' The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself. ' There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31).

God is truly Father, Son & Holy Spirit that we receive at accepting the gift of salvation. He does not withhold any of himself from those who seek him. There is a further desire to be sought; the fullness in the empowerment of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told them to tarry at Jerusalem until they were endued with this power from on high.
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
John 14:16-18
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Men have corrupted the truth of the word in their false teachings & doctrine, infiltrating the churches. Many deny today they are Calvinists yet we see in the beliefs of the members such doctrines.
2 Timothy 3
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH.

The dispensationalists deny to themselves this promise by Jesus, of the Father, saying it is not for today ! Does God change ? Has he now in the end times denied this power into his
children ?
Many quote scripts w/o the knowledge of the Holy Spirit to reveal it unto them. Then it just becomes word salads & is ineffectual!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Quote the verse then.

Prove me wrong.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1. If we say WE have no sin, we are decieved. (again, HE INCLUDES HIMSELF
2. Since we still have sin, IF WE confess our sins.

if we go on, He said if we claim we have never sinned.. But that's another story

James even told us to confess them to one another. How can we do this if we do not sin anymore??

James 5:16
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Men have corrupted the truth of the word in their false teachings & doctrine, infiltrating the churches. Many deny today they are Calvinists yet we see in the beliefs of the members such doctrines.
2 Timothy 3
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH.

The dispensationalists deny to themselves this promise by Jesus, of the Father, saying it is not for today ! Does God change ? Has he now in the end times denied this power into his
children ?
Many quote scripts w/o the knowledge of the Holy Spirit to reveal it unto them. Then it just becomes word salads & is ineffectual!

While no judgment or condemnation there. You have everyone pegged under doctrine types.

please tell me what I deny? Please tell me what I say is not for today? Salvation is for everyone in all days.. If your going to lie about people. you should at least have the guts to talk to them.

 

[Ritajanice]

See here is our problem yes it does make a difference for there is only one truth in Gods word and our interpretation of it does matter. We can not have differing interpretation and both be right we can both be wrong but not both right if we disagree so we must go to the word and study to show ourselves approved. We can never be so confident in our own understanding if it is not according to scripture. when we get in a discussion with others and there is a conflict then we must point to scripture to find the answer.

A Born Again knows in their heart ,that they have been “ birthed in the Spirit “ 100% ....I don’t need to keep trying to convince myself, that I’m Born Again.

But minute you said you think you are the next minute you’re sure you are.....

Sorry, I knew from day one that I was Born of God....which can only happen via the Holy Spirit.

Only HE can birth you in the Spirit.

So either you are or you aren’t...make your mind up.

You must be Born of the Spirit....the water birth is the human birth...being Baptised in water, is symbolic to the spiritual birth...where we are placed down in the water, which is representing the old us, then we can up in the newness of life, as we were birthed in the Spirit...our new life is in Christ..Born from Above by the Holy Spirit.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

 

[JBO]

Born of water' refers to a physical birth, specifically being born a Jew. In John 3:5, this phrase is therefore used by Jesus to refer to the natural birth process, with 'water' referring to the amniotic fluid that surrounds the baby in the womb and is present during the birth process

Just where do you learn that?

 

[JBO]

You cannot even be honest with Acts 10:43-47 and I'm supposed to trust you? I would trust AT Robertson over you any day.

How have I been dishonest with Acts 10:42-47?

And I haven't asked you to trust me. I wouldn't expect you to. However, trust A T Robertson all you want. Just know that there are many other Greek "experts" who would not.

 

[JBO]

One of the most ludicrous arguments from church of Christ folks that I have ever heard in a desperate effort to "get around" the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 had received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism is that Balaam's donkey (in Numbers 22) also spoke in tongues, but that does not prove the donkey was saved either. In the first place, the Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. The donkey did not get saved and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit or the spiritual gift of tongues, which is for believers only.

Who said anything about Balaam's ass being saved?

Do you have the spiritual gift of tongues? What do you think it is? The spiritual gift of tongues is just one of the many signs, wonders and miracles given by God to all manner of folks throughout time. The first recorded one seems to be Exodus 7:20 when Moses turned the water of the Nile into blood.

Such signs, wonders and miracles really have nothing to do with salvation directly. The purpose is almost universally to accredit or authenticate the speech of the one performing the signs, wonders and miracles. There is no indication at all that such abilities were reserved for believers only. The speaking by Balaam's ass seems to demonstrate that quite nicely.

 

[JBO]

You mean like adding your own words that born of water = being baptized in water?

I think the connection of salvation with being water baptized is well documented in the NT. It began with John the Baptist's preaching a water baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. At least that is the first recorded occasion.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think the connection of salvation with being water baptized is well documented in the NT. It began with John the Baptist's preaching a water baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. At least that is the first recorded occasion.

So its ok for you to add words?

I think if water in John 3 was water baptism, Jesus would have said so when Jesus told Nicodemus HOW to be born again.

He did not say the word baptise. because the word water has nothing to do with baptism.

 

[mailmandan]

Sorry I had to join in . It is one of most ludicrous arguments that the bible does not show that there is a difference in the SPIRIT UPON and the SPIRIT WITHIN There is a difference and if you would allow it to be shown you from scripture not man you would be able to clear up a lot of confusion. Acts 19:1-5 verses 6 shows the difference but you cannot see it because you cannot see past your Calvinistic understanding. You want to ignore verse 1-5 where Paul makes it clear that the indwelling was given through the baptism in Christ name and lump verse 6 in there but it is not what the scriptures say they say verse 6 was the empowering of witness as in Mark 16:17-20 and Acts 1:8 the bible makes clear distinction that the spirit upon is not for salvation but for witnessing it is signs to confirm the word it is clearly given the reason you must let go of what you learnt from Calvin and see the truth in scripture for it is given for you to trust in and believe God at his word.

The giving of the promised indwelling spirit is clearly taught comes through the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ as Peter said in Acts 2:38 and Paul confirms in Acts 19:1-5. Read Acts 19:1-5 and tell me Paul is not talking about the indwelling spirit coming through the baptism in Christ name and then once he cleared up the wrong baptism because the baptism of John could not give the spirit it only pointed to the baptism in Jesus name in which that one did give the spirit then he laid hands on them to give them the power to confirm the word they will be preaching is from God.

Actually, I'm not a 5-point Calvinist but I can see that you are unable to see anything beyond your church of Christ (Campbellism) indoctrination. In Acts 19:2, Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith in Christ, they were then (afterwards) baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10, so this is the exception, not the rule, just as it was in Acts 8).

These Gentiles in Acts 10 believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues (which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ -1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) You can try to spin this any way you want but the truth still stands. Acts 10:43-47 is a major stumbling block for your false teaching on salvation by water baptism. The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[mailmandan]

Who said anything about Balaam's ass being saved?

Do you have the spiritual gift of tongues? What do you think it is? The spiritual gift of tongues is just one of the many signs, wonders and miracles given by God to all manner of folks throughout time. The first recorded one seems to be Exodus 7:20 when Moses turned the water of the Nile into blood.

Such signs, wonders and miracles really have nothing to do with salvation directly. The purpose is almost universally to accredit or authenticate the speech of the one performing the signs, wonders and miracles. There is no indication at all that such abilities were reserved for believers only. The speaking by Balaam's ass seems to demonstrate that quite nicely.

You must be kidding me. Try catching up to the New Testament after the death of Jesus and the Holy Spirit came to permanently indwell believers. (John 7:37-39; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; Ephesians 1:13) Your comparison from the Old Testament does not hold water. The Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. That's it. That has nothing to do with the spiritual gift of tongues for the body of Christ in the New Testament after the death of Jesus. Unbelievers do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit or spiritual gifts. (Romans 8:8-11; 1 Corinthians 12)

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I think the connection of salvation with being water baptized is well documented in the NT. It began with John the Baptist's preaching a water baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. At least that is the first recorded occasion.

Yes and there are passages in the New Testament that indicate that water baptism of repentance is required for the forgiveness of sins with the ONLY exception being like the situation was for their thief on the cross where there was no opportunity to go get water baptized.

Of course the OSAS peoples will sweep those passages under the rug and promptly ignore them as usual.

 

[Jack]

Yes and there are passages in the New Testament that indicate that water baptism of repentance is required for the forgiveness of sins with the ONLY exception being like the situation was for their thief on the cross where there was no opportunity to go get water baptized.

Of course the OSAS peoples will sweep those passages under the rug and promptly ignore them as usual. View attachment 38094

The only exception?

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

As one wise sister-brother said recently, oh boy, do we have to go through this again?

No.

I was going to reply until this let me know why it would be futile to argue with those who disagree with Immanuel Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes and there are passages in the New Testament that indicate that water baptism of repentance is required for the forgiveness of sins with the ONLY exception being like the situation was for their thief on the cross where there was no opportunity to go get water baptized.

Of course the OSAS peoples will sweep those passages under the rug and promptly ignore them as usual. View attachment 38094

I knew you taught works salvation which explains a lot about your anti-OSAS derangement syndrome. Your true colors are obvious for all to see. I have delt with those passages about baptism and have not swept them under the rug. Unlike you I properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

 

[mailmandan]

A common argument used by water-salvationists in an attempt to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith "apart from water baptism" is, "the thief was not subject to baptism because he died under the Old Testament mandate. (Others may argue how do we know he was not already water baptized). I've heard it all.

So let's see, after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, in Acts 2:38, we read - "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.." and before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, we read - John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

So in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, was this baptism of repentance FOR (in order to obtain) the remission of sins or was it or FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) the remission of sins received upon repentance? It would have to be the latter in order to agree with the Old Testament mandate argument from water-salvationists. In Matthew 3:11, we read: I baptize you with water FOR repentance.. If translated "in order to obtain" the verse does not make sense. I baptize you with water FOR (in order to obtain) repentance? or I baptize you with water FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) repentance? Obviously, the latter.

Whatever baptism is "for" in Acts 2:38, it's "for" in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3. Water baptism is "in regards to" remission of sins received upon repentance. So the water baptism is not necessary for salvation under the Old Testament mandate, but is necessary for salvation under the New Testament mandate argument doesn't hold water.

Before AND after Pentecost, salvation is through belief/faith "apart from water baptism" (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The only exception?

That's the only exception we see in scripture where Jesus accepts someone who did not follow the command to get baptized for remission of their sin... and that is because they got got saved while hanging on the cross next to Jesus... so there was no opportunity to go get baptized in water.

Jesus said the man would go on to paradise with Jesus meaning the Lord accepted him.

 

[Jack]

That's the only exception we see in scripture where Jesus accepts someone who did not follow the command to get baptized for remission of their sin... and that is because they got got saved while hanging on the cross next to Jesus... so there was no opportunity to go get baptized in water.

Jesus said the man would go on to paradise with Jesus meaning the Lord accepted him.

What about someone dying who can't get baptized?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

What about someone dying who can't get baptized?

Notice the part where I said... the ONLY exception being like the situation was for their thief on the cross

Someone dying on their death bed and getting saved before croaking is a situation similar to the thief on the cross.

Everyone else though has opportunity to get baptized and many refuse to do so cause they are taught wrong and they believe wrong...

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I think the connection of salvation with being water baptized is well documented in the NT. It began with John the Baptist's preaching a water baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. At least that is the first recorded occasion.

Baptism fulfills the spirit of righteousness as Jesus stated to John.
Christ has not been sacrificed nor risen again at the time of Johns baptism unto repentance.
There was a better way planned of God just ahead.

Ephesians 2:
8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For the preaching, hearing and believing the word is what reveals the forgiveness of our great God and it is only through his NAME that we might be saved!

Romans 10:9-15
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

10 For with the heart man BELIEVERH unto righteousness; and with the mouth CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION.
11 For the SCRIPTURES SAITH, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

The battle of baptism to salvation has been ongoing for 2000 yrs. It is the preaching of the cross and the Lamb's sacrifice upon it, that turns hearts from sin unto God !