OSAS is now teaching faith with works, and not faith alone.
- Thread starter robert derrick
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I... literally don't care. What I've said in my posts has been quite sufficient.
And as I said, you've "accompanied" somebody else down that rabbit hole, apparently just yourself.
That's what I've been telling you all this time, Robert.That seems to be all you, Robert.
Nope. But you can keep foolishly characterizing it as such, silly and stupid as it is. By all means, keep digging.
Is a very accurate description of yourself.
Grace and peace to you.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
I agree sinning with the flesh does not disqualify us forever from the race, because we can repent and be forgiven and run on to the end. This can happen 70 x 7 in the mercy of God. I also agree that continued sinning without repentance does disqualify us.
But, What about while sinning, as I asked, are we not condemned the same as other sinners, while walking after the flesh? Or are we still under no condemnation, as when walking in the Spirit?
He would. The thing is, it is impossible to keep true faith if you constantly choose to commit what we may term ''wilfull'' sin. Your faith will wane, your heart hardens, in the end, you will forego your only righteousness before God. That's how I rationalise it anyway. In saying that, I believe those who have had a more deep spiritual awakening(if I can put it that way) would come to their senses as God chastises them. You could think of the parable of the sower here. In the second example they walked away from the faith when times got hard, due to making a shallow commitment. In the third example people kept getting side tracked from the path they should have been on by worldly things. Jesus didn't say they walked away, only that they did not mature in the faith. For you mature by evermore practising right from wrong
If you have faith in Jesus Christ, what he did on the Cross for us, you are perfect in the sight of God!
If you backslide into sin, you are still His child, you are still perfect in His sight, but He will spank your butt!
No one knows how far one can go until He says, that's it.
Most of the theologians I have read say, and it makes sense, that God knows if you will come back or not.
But even if He knows you won't come back, He will still work to bring you back, they say, as evidence in the judgment.
It is my belief that this is not a very common thing among believers, most all that backslide will come back.
Faith the size of a mustard seed will take you right through the gates of Glory!
But it must be faith in Christ, that faith must be placed in Him, not water baptism, not your church, not your ability to keep laws and commandments, and not a split faith in Christ plus one of the above!
This is the reason the gate is narrow and few there be that find it!
Speaking of theologians. The man who wrote the official biography of Kathryn Khulman said many people asked her why all were not healed in her services. She always shook her head and replied. ''I don't know, but that's the first thing I want to ask Jesus when I get to Heaven.'' The biographer said ''scholars and theologians had the answer, hundreds of them, but they never saw any miracles''
I'm not a scholar nor a theologian, just a poor soul in need of Christ.
I can tell you why there are no miracles.
2 Chron. 7:14
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
God is speaking here to His own children, not the world of sinners who reject Him.
We look around and see all the problems and simply don't believe Him.
We, the children of the Almighty God can't even agree on what constitutes His salvation.
What can we expect from Him beyond His saving grace?
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I know what you mean. But in my experience, the average pew sitter is far more accomodating than most on the internet where that is concerned. We needn't go into why. I have been to many denominational churches and the people there have always accepted me as a christian simply based on my acceptance of Christ as my saviour. I even lived in a christian community for a few months run by catholics. They too happily accepted me as someone who was saved.
Do you believe that Christians can be doing righteousness at all times, and not sinning and falling into transgression against Christ? That we can walk as He walked enduring any and all temptations like He, and without sinning?
I know that man can live with no known sin in his life. That is not by any means sinless perfection.
It's no longer practicing sin you were in before coming to Christ. But that is not an instant thing in most cases.
There are some who never completely lay down all that practicing sin.
But thank God our salvation is not based on our performance, it's based on His.
And He was perfect in everything He did, and His righteousness is the righteousness that I have been given by faith in Him.
That's why I'm perfect in God's sight, I have been granted the righteousness of Christ!
He earned that righteousness through His own life in this world, and gave it to me as free gift!
DSo you believe in being forgiven of all sins past, present, and future, when first believing Jesus to be forgiven of past sinning?
Last question. I'm getting the feel for you full teaching. If you want add more, please do.
We should all learn and know what the other side believes. It is to your advantage to know!
I believe that sin we are aware of, assuming one is honest with himself and God, must be confessed for forgiveness.
If not, you can expect a spanking!
The Grace of God in His righteousness freely given to me is not taken lightly. I don't have a license to sin.
Although through my faith in Christ, there is no sin held against me, even when I sin, I am responsible for that sin.
But whatever sin I may commit, I am still saved through my faith, subject to His correction.
There is only one sin that I can commit and be cut off from God, when my faith no longer exists.
God's salvation is conditional, He promises you everything He has for your faith in His Son. That's all He asks, He takes it from there.
He gives you His Spirit to guide, His Son's righteousness in perfection, He promises He will never leave you or forsake you, all based on your faith, and your faith alone.
When you stumble, He picks you up, when you can't go a step further, He carries you to the finish line, all on your faith in His Son's finished work.
That's why my faith is all in Christ, nothing else, period! The Scripture says, Christ is the author and finisher of our faith!
Ok. Thanks much for straight answers. I'm sorting through it, and will have some response if you want. You've got good stuff here, and I'm pretty much on board with a few tweaks perhaps.
In the meantime, what do you think of the line of the thread, that saving faith alone, is never alone?
And they're not speaking of believing in Jesus only, but in being saved by Jesus through faith alone, without any works ever having to do with it.
They are saying therefore, We are saved by faith alone, that is never alone, just not with works.
What is it then, if not with works, that makes our faith alone, to never be alone?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Scripture says the only way for faith to not be alone, is with works.
Or, you may just disagree with the line itself, and don't know what they are talking about.
We are justified and sanctified in the position of the child of God through faith alone, that very second you believe.
Let me say it another way. When Paul said we are saved by Grace through faith, not of works, that is exactly what he meant, faith alone!
At the time James wrote his epistle, the church was under great persecution from the Sanhedrin. They killed James, the first of the 12 to die. Everyone drew back with fear of losing their jobs, being evicted from their homes, etc., this was taking place before James was killed.
James was scolding the believers, even though under persecution he was trying to get them back in fight. This is why he made such a big deal of works. James believed the same as Paul, we don't work to get saved, we work because we are saved. The Jews who believed in Christ were drawing back. His epistle was addressed to "the twelve tribes of Israel scattered abroad." Even they had fears of coming to Jerusalem to keep the feasts, and the Christians in Jerusalem were suffering.
Everyone who is truly born-again will do some type of work for Christ, not for merit of any kind, but because this is how we express our love toward Christ. Some will reap and sow 30, some 50, some 75, etc.
Some are capable of more that others, this is why the scripture says, "of whom much is given, much is required." This applies across the board. And I have shown you, these things we do out of love for Christ are returned with reward.
Works have nothing to do with salvation! I can't stress this enough! All our works come from love of Christ and our neighbor, regardless if they are born-again or not.
We can't let anything interfere with our faith in Christ, that alone is our salvation. Our works is our love toward Christ, and it is our duty, for we were bought with a price! Christ gave His life for us to be reconciled back to God. We had better understand this, because the only thing standing between us and eternal hell, is the Cross of Christ!
And yet OSAS believers are saying your saving faith alone, is never really alone.
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Since Scripture says plainly says the only way for faith not to ever be alone, is with works, then are they not speaking for you? Do you disagree with the what OSAS is saying about your saving faith alone, that it is never alone? Or can you fill in the gap with what makes your saving faith alone, not alone, just not with works?
I've tried 3 times now for an straight answer to this one. You've done so with others, but seem to have a problem with this one.
Try this. Just answer the yes/no question with a yes or a no, or you don't know, and then you can go on explain your answer. Because I'm not seeing an answer one way or the other in your doctrinal essays.
1. Do you agree that your saving faith alone, is never alone, just not with works?
2. If so, what is it that makes your saving faith alone, not alone, if not with works?
I hope you will answer one way or the other, because I really am looking for an honest answer to this OSAS teaching about your saving faith alone.
If you don't want to answer at all, then say so, and that is fine, and I will gladly move on to address some of your good teaching that has much to commend it.
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You've asked 3 times with no answer or you've read my posts and don't see the answer?
Paul plainly said we are saved by faith not of works, lest any man should boast. I've shown you that.
James brings works in the picture in a different way. If faith plus works can justify, then James has something to boast about. His works helped same him. So he can say I helped save myself by my works.
Paul said straight out we are saved by grace through faith, not of works.
Are you going to ignore Paul as the Catholics do, or are you going to reread James to see why he appeared to say just the opposite of Paul?
Robert, there are some who will tell you that you are justified by grace through faith initially, and then works come into the picture through sanctification to keep you saved.
That is not true! I can help you with Scripture for that if you need it.
I tend to see it as Paul was coming at it from a different angle than James, not even sure if James completely understood Paul’s message. Peter said some of the things Paul wrote were hard to understand! To Paul, it was vital a person knew they were saved by faith alone, because: The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56. To Paul, if you know you are righteous before God apart from law/works, the power of sin is removed from your life. With the power of sin removed, you can then lead a much more holy life. IE, Rom6:14.
However, Paul believed change must come, and in a genuine conversion it would, for the convert in their heart would want to see that change. I’m sure you would agree, if a drunk, wife beater, serial adulterer and habitual thief professed to have made a commitment to Christ and three months later say nothing at all had changed in his life, you would either not believe he had saving faith in the first place, or he could not be a Christian. Paul said the romans used to be slaves to sin, but by following the message they had been given, they had crossed over from that state to being a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. For Paul said. If you are a slave to sin it leads to death. I take being a slave of sin to mean when sin totally dominates your life. You live a lifestyle continually of flagrant sin. So to Paul, change must come. And to James, change must come also. The only way you can bring both messages into cohesion, in my view is, if James view was, no change in your life once saved you have no evidence of a true faith, therefore you cannot be justified. Faith without any works/change in your life must be dead faith. The problem is, you can only follow Paul’s formula for Godly living, if you actually believe you are saved by faith alone. It can be a bit tricky, if not impossible, if you concentrate on change must then come.
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Yes, it does make you wonder if James understood.
At the Council at Jerusalem in Acts 15, the apostles came together to decide if the Gentiles being saved were to keep the Law of Moses. Everyone gave their opinion with Peter being outspoken on the matter and Paul agreeing.
The Gentiles were not to be bound by the Law. It's obvious James was the head pastor, it's clear he made the final decree on what would be done. The problem with James' decision is that he said nothing about the Jews being no longer bound to the Law. Feasts, and traditions yes, but not the Law itself. Paul made it clear the Law was a school master that pointed to Christ, and would fade away.
It's obvious at that time James did not understand this. So it makes you wonder. Having studied and read many different opinions on this, I have come to the conclusion that he come to understand by the time he wrote his epistle. But he is coming, as you rightly said, from a different angle with works.