OT saints are they saved ?

[Harvest 1874]

Just pondering

OT saints are they saved in believing in God ? as we do in Jesus
Did they not have a salvation plan for a resurrection ?
What is in their resurrection that is going to be any different from future resurrections ?
Will they not have part in the first resurrection just like the NT saints ?
If they are in the first resurrection, then their salvation was good under the OT Laws. ?

What was better for the NT saints that the OT saints, as pertaining to be saved ?
Did they not both qualify for the resurrection ?

Our friend asks:

1) Were the OT saints saved through their faith in God even as we are saved through our faith in Christ?

What say the scriptures?

In James 2:23 it states: “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.”

Does this not imply that he was saved?


Is it not written, "For by grace are ye saved through faith...? (Eph 2:8)

Yes, but faith in what, in whom?

In Romans Chapter 10 the Apostle makes clear, “That if you confess with your mouth THE LORD JESUS and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved”.

Did the Old Testament saints confess Jesus Christ as Lord?

No they never heard of him, yes they knew of the promised seed that would come and that through him all the families of the earth would be blessed, but they did not know exactly who or what this seed (the Hidden Mystery) would be composed of, that it would encompass Christ Jesus our Lord and the Church his body. So how then could they profess faith, belief in something, in someone they knew not?

Is it not written, “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved?”


“How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?” (Rom 10:14)

“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

God has provided only one way of salvation. There is only the one name given under heaven, only the one faith, only the one door, only the one way of access into the true justified state or condition, and that is through belief in Christ Jesus our Lord and through the imputation of the merit of his righteousness given only to the faithful believers of the Gospel age. In the next age the world will receive actual justification when the merit of the ransom sacrifice is applied to them.

No, although Abraham (as well as the rest of the OT saints) was justified by his faith and thus brought into a close fellowship with God similar to that which was once held by father Adam before he sinned, nevertheless as noble and grand as he was, yet he is merely styled "the friend of God" a member of the house of servants (as were the rest of the OT saints).

The Scriptures very consistently show that God could accept none to be members of his House of Sons until first of all the sacrifice for sins had been offered; more than this, not until it had been presented to the Father and accepted by him.

None were saved as of yet because the race had not yet been redeemed, the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) not having yet been given. (1 John 2:2)

2) Did they not have a salvation plan for a resurrection?

Yes the OT saints had a plan for salvation and for a resurrection from the dead; their belief was that this salvation would come through the promised “seed”.

Job had hope in the salvation of the Lord and in a resurrection when he cried unto the Lord, “Oh, that you would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, till my change comes. You shall call, and I will answer you; you shall desire the work of your hands.” (Job 14:13-15)

Job was looking beyond the period of the permission of this “curse” or “wrath” (the permission of evil) to a time future, when the “curse” would be removed, and instead of it a “blessing” would come to every member of the race, himself included.

As a prophet he recorded his hope of a common Redeemer. “I know that my Redeemer lives, and that He shall stand in the latter day upon the earth,” (Job 19:25) through this Redeemer’s work he realized that the “curse” would be abolished, and his prayer to be hid in Sheol, the grave, the tomb, was merely until the “curse” the “wrath” would be over— until the great blessing time, the millennial reign, should begin. His prayer continuing shows his hope of a resurrection, “that Thou wouldst appoint me a set time and remember me.” Then particularly referring to the resurrection, he says, “Thou shalt call and I will answer Thee, for Thou wilt have regard unto the work of Thy hands.”

The Prophet Daniel refers to the same “seed” when he mentions, Michael, the great prince and the resurrection of the dead in (Dan 12:1, 2)

Continued with next post.

 

[Harvest 1874]

3) What is it about their resurrection that is going to be any different from future resurrections (i.e. from the resurrection of the rest of the world)?

The OT saints having previously been approved of God, "having obtained a good report" (Heb 11:39)--their trial having already taken place, it will be unnecessary that their restitution out of death and into life should be a gradual work. Their shortcomings went before to judgment (1 Tim 5:24). Therefore their resurrection will be an instantaneous one to human perfection, a “better resurrection”. (Heb 11:35)

Abraham died in faith of the promise (that in his seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed), he knew that in God’s own good time and way the promise was sure, he had faith in God, and the resurrection, and thus a hope of a place in the natural seed to bless all mankind. It is Important to remember that the faithful of the pass had no knowledge of the spiritual seed, and thus no desire for any heavenly reward. God had not promised any heavenly rewards prior to Jesus’ day.

The faithful of the pass suffered much for their faith, and trust in God’s promises, but they had hope of obtaining “a better resurrection”, better, in that they hoped for an awakening from death to instantaneous human perfection. The rest of the world will require a thousand years during which to come back gradually to the original perfection which was lost by Adam.

4) Will they not have part in the first resurrection just like the NT saints?

In a sense they do share in the first resurrection, as the first resurrection is the resurrection of life, the resurrection of the just, however their resurrection consist of a different type in that it is an instantaneous resurrection to human perfection whereas that of the Gospel saints is one of an instantaneous resurrection to spirit perfection.

Even as the Apostle Paul states it, “God gives [to each individual] a body as He pleases, and to each seed (the earthly seed or the spiritual seed) its own body… There are celestial bodies (spiritual bodies) and terrestrial bodies (earthly bodies); but the glory (the perfection) of the celestial is one, and the glory (the perfection) of the terrestrial is another.” (1 Cor 15:38, 40)

5) If they are in the first resurrection, then their salvation was good under the OT Laws?

No one was saved under the OT Law for none could keep it perfectly save Christ. Nor could the blood of bulls and goats take away sin. Their salvation comes by the same means as does ours, through Christ Jesus our Lord and his finished work.

6) What was better about the salvation of the NT saints then that of the OT saints as pertaining to their salvation? Did they not both qualify for the resurrection?

In regards to the first part of this question we have already partially addressed it. The better part of the resurrection of the NT saints pertains to the fact that they will experience an instantaneous resurrection to spirit perfection, and not just too any spirit perfection, but to the highest form of spirit perfection, the divine or immortal plane of perfection something which is presently held by only two individuals, our Lord Jesus Christ and the Father Himself.

All of the OT saints died in faith, having obtained a good testimony, however they have yet to have received the promise of the “better resurrection”, as “God having promised something better for us (the faithful NT saints) that they should not be made perfect (resurrected to human perfection) apart (or prior to) us.” (Heb 11: 39, 40)

Why?

Because all the blessings of the OT saints as well as those of the rest of mankind come through the glorified Christ (Head and body complete). The Church must be complete before any of the OT saints could experience a resurrection and receive their reward. Both the OT saints and the NT saints qualify for a resurrection, however the one is dependent upon the other having first received their resurrection first.

We are covering some of this presently in our blog post entitled, “The Church under the Abrahamic Covenant, not the New Covenant”.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

3) What is it about their resurrection that is going to be any different from future resurrections (i.e. from the resurrection of the rest of the world)?

The OT saints having previously been approved of God, "having obtained a good report" (Heb 11:39)--their trial having already taken place, it will be unnecessary that their restitution out of death and into life should be a gradual work. Their shortcomings went before to judgment (1 Tim 5:24). Therefore their resurrection will be an instantaneous one to human perfection, a “better resurrection”. (Heb 11:35)

Abraham died in faith of the promise (that in his seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed), he knew that in God’s own good time and way the promise was sure, he had faith in God, and the resurrection, and thus a hope of a place in the natural seed to bless all mankind. It is Important to remember that the faithful of the pass had no knowledge of the spiritual seed, and thus no desire for any heavenly reward. God had not promised any heavenly rewards prior to Jesus’ day.

The faithful of the pass suffered much for their faith, and trust in God’s promises, but they had hope of obtaining “a better resurrection”, better, in that they hoped for an awakening from death to instantaneous human perfection. The rest of the world will require a thousand years during which to come back gradually to the original perfection which was lost by Adam.

4) Will they not have part in the first resurrection just like the NT saints?

In a sense they do share in the first resurrection, as the first resurrection is the resurrection of life, the resurrection of the just, however their resurrection consist of a different type in that it is an instantaneous resurrection to human perfection whereas that of the Gospel saints is one of an instantaneous resurrection to spirit perfection.

Even as the Apostle Paul states it, “God gives [to each individual] a body as He pleases, and to each seed (the earthly seed or the spiritual seed) its own body… There are celestial bodies (spiritual bodies) and terrestrial bodies (earthly bodies); but the glory (the perfection) of the celestial is one, and the glory (the perfection) of the terrestrial is another.” (1 Cor 15:38, 40)

5) If they are in the first resurrection, then their salvation was good under the OT Laws?

No one was saved under the OT Law for none could keep it perfectly save Christ. Nor could the blood of bulls and goats take away sin. Their salvation comes by the same means as does ours, through Christ Jesus our Lord and his finished work.

6) What was better about the salvation of the NT saints then that of the OT saints as pertaining to their salvation? Did they not both qualify for the resurrection?

In regards to the first part of this question we have already partially addressed it. The better part of the resurrection of the NT saints pertains to the fact that they will experience an instantaneous resurrection to spirit perfection, and not just too any spirit perfection, but to the highest form of spirit perfection, the divine or immortal plane of perfection something which is presently held by only two individuals, our Lord Jesus Christ and the Father Himself.

All of the OT saints died in faith, having obtained a good testimony, however they have yet to have received the promise of the “better resurrection”, as “God having promised something better for us (the faithful NT saints) that they should not be made perfect (resurrected to human perfection) apart (or prior to) us.” (Heb 11: 39, 40)

Why?

Because all the blessings of the OT saints as well as those of the rest of mankind come through the glorified Christ (Head and body complete). The Church must be complete before any of the OT saints could experience a resurrection and receive their reward. Both the OT saints and the NT saints qualify for a resurrection, however the one is dependent upon the other having first received their resurrection first.

We are covering some of this presently in our blog post entitled, “The Church under the Abrahamic Covenant, not the New Covenant”.

Thanks Harvest for all your inputs.
Not saying I agree with all of everything.
Some are worth looking into.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Interesting that some are saying the OT Mosaic laws did not save anybody.
It was by faith believing that God is. ?????

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:13-15
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.

If they did not keep these laws were they saved ?

Would not their faith be, in believing that God would bless them if they kept the laws,
isn't that what God said he would do, and if they didn't he would curse them ?
The law did not give eternal life but it kept them from eternal death and they would get a resurrection for life.
The laws was good if a man kept them, Paul said.
Some of those laws kept a good relationship with God the Father if a man would keep them.
When they did sin they offered up a sacrifice to cover those sins but it did not keep them from doing it again, the law was weak.
So when they were under the laws they had to also have faith in that it was God's commandments to be safe.
They needed Faith in God and faith in what God says written down.
The laws was no good without faith believing in God. You can't separate those two in the OT concerning salvation.

More thoughts to think about.

 

[Earburner]

Thank you for sharing. We can always hope for the Lord to minister to each of us in this iron sharpens iron exchanges.



When the O.T. saints were resurrected that was in Paradise aka Abraham's bosom, it was temporary. When Jesus had ascended, He had taken Paradise up to the third heaven where their spirits are today, awaiting the resurrection of the firstfruits.



I believe because of verse 8 and the small season referenced in verse 11 is referring to left behind unrepentant saints that were killed by that calamity of fire in that third part in the world ( I believe it is the entire western hemisphere ) which sets up the hour of temptation for the coming great tribulation to either get the mark to buy and sell and be damned to the lake of fire or suffer and die by not taking the mark to survive. So that small season is in reference to the coming great tribulation of those left behind saints and new saints that did not die in that fire on earth.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I am not really seeing anything that could be referred to David being under that altar.

First and foremost, there will be NO survivors (escapees) upon the Lord's Glorious return in flaming fire!! If you believe that there will be "escapees" , then you will have to explain HOW people who are flesh and blood only, shall inherit the KoG! 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 1 Corinthians 15:50.
It is apparent, that you and many others love to express the religiosity of your OWN thoughts and ways.
However, the simplicity of the Lord's thoughts and ways (Isaiah 55:8-9) have been conveyed to you, but you can't hear it.
There is no hope for correct understanding, when so much preconceived religious nonsense is already deep rooted in your head.

"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner.

 

[Enow]

First and foremost, there will be NO survivors (escapees) upon the Lord's Glorious return in flaming fire!! If you believe that there will be "escapees" , then you will have to explain HOW people who are flesh and blood only, shall inherit the KoG! 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 1 Corinthians 15:50.
It is apparent, that you and many others love to express the religiosity of your OWN thoughts and ways.
However, the simplicity of the Lord's thoughts and ways (Isaiah 55:8-9) have been conveyed to you, but you can't hear it.
There is no hope for correct understanding, when so much preconceived religious nonsense is already deep rooted in your head.

"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner.

Well, it is best to address the scripture for where e get these "thoughts" from.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Now if those who depart from iniquity becomes the vessels unto honor, then those that do not are what? The vessels unto dishonor. Both still in His House? Even former believers that err from the truth and had their faith overthrown as the evolution theory has done to many believers?

Yep. Then we have this;

Matthew 5:9 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

They that teach error as called least in the kingdom of heaven? They are still saved? Yes, but they will be sorry for why the vessels unto dishonor are vessels of wood and earth meaning not the same thing as the vessels unto honor that never die because only the power of the second death wll not be over those resurrected after the great tribulation for why it is necessary for them to eat from the tree of life for the healing of the nations. So there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of that first inheritance, but like the prodigal son, he ma never get that inheritance back, but he is still son.

It certainly will not be any picnic for those left behind. Another proof that they are still His is by how He addresses them as servants still for why they are getting stripes. If the were no longer His servants, they would not be getting any stripes per the knowledge for not being ready.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

That fire is what Peter explained as coming on the earth like the global flood did for why believers are called to be ready t escae that fire that will burn up one third of the earth as prophesied in the Book of Revelations which has to be the entire western hemisphere for why all those armies marching on Jerusalem has been prophesied as coming from the 2 /3 rd rest of the world.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

So that is where I got these notions from. Scripture. Now if you wish to edify me by rightly dividing the word of truth, then explain those references that supports the belief that I have if it is wrong. No need to go to other scripture, just explain those references to show it is not what I am seeing as truth in His words. Or concede that you need time to study them with the Lord before you can adequately respond for my edification.

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Earburner]

So the question remains:
Of the "many" saints whose graves were opened, and arose from the dead after Christ's resurrection, why was David "left behind", according to Peter's testimony that David was still dead and buried in his unopened grave?
Ans. Not ALL the OT saints were in that resurrection, but are stiil " under the altar", awaiting for the glorious Day of Christ's return in flaming fire.

 

[Earburner]

Well, it is best to address the scripture for where e get these "thoughts" from.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Now if those who depart from iniquity becomes the vessels unto honor, then those that do not are what? The vessels unto dishonor. Both still in His House? Even former believers that err from the truth and had their faith overthrown as the evolution theory has done to many believers?

Yep. Then we have this;

Matthew 5:9 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

They that teach error as called least in the kingdom of heaven? They are still saved? Yes, but they will be sorry for why the vessels unto dishonor are vessels of wood and earth meaning not the same thing as the vessels unto honor that never die because only the power of the second death wll not be over those resurrected after the great tribulation for why it is necessary for them to eat from the tree of life for the healing of the nations. So there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of that first inheritance, but like the prodigal son, he ma never get that inheritance back, but he is still son.

It certainly will not be any picnic for those left behind. Another proof that they are still His is by how He addresses them as servants still for why they are getting stripes. If the were no longer His servants, they would not be getting any stripes per the knowledge for not being ready.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

That fire is what Peter explained as coming on the earth like the global flood did for why believers are called to be ready t escae that fire that will burn up one third of the earth as prophesied in the Book of Revelations which has to be the entire western hemisphere for why all those armies marching on Jerusalem has been prophesied as coming from the 2 /3 rd rest of the world.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

So that is where I got these notions from. Scripture. Now if you wish to edify me by rightly dividing the word of truth, then explain those references that supports the belief that I have if it is wrong. No need to go to other scripture, just explain those references to show it is not what I am seeing as truth in His words. Or concede that you need time to study them with the Lord before you can adequately respond for my edification.

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

And there is the religiosity of your beliefs, all jumbled together, and not once did you mention the determing factor of any of the Lord's thoughts.
Luke 18:8
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
John 3:18
Romans 8:8-9, which is shown for the OT saints in "white robes" Revelation 6:9-11

 

[Earburner]

"White robes" is symbolic of the Gift of the Holy Spirit, being given, NOT the resurrection!

 

[Enow]

So the question remains:
Of the "many" saints whose graves were opened, and arose from the dead after Christ's resurrection, why was David "left behind", according to Peter's testimony that David was still dead and buried in his unopened grave?
Ans. Not ALL the OT saints were in that resurrection, but are stiil " under the altar", awaiting for the glorious Day of Christ's return in flaming fire.

I did say that they were "temporarily" resurrected. Therefore their dead bodies are down here while their spirits are up there with the Lord in Paradise which was taken to the third Heaven when Jesus had ascended, awaiting the first fruit of the resurrection.

 

[Enow]

And there is the religiosity of your beliefs, all jumbled together, and not once did you mention the determing factor of any of the Lord's thoughts.

I clicked on those scriptural references and found nothing to the contrary of what I had shared. I did not say David's resurrected body was in Heaven, but I did say that this resurrection was temporary. That is why their bodies are still down here but because Jesus took Paradise up to Heaven, taking the captivity captive, all the spirits of the O.T. went up there with Him in Paradise.

Luke 18:8
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
John 3:18

None of those verses above reprove anything that I have shared.

Romans 8:8-9, which is shown for the OT saints in "white robes" Revelation 6:9-11

Did it say David was there? No. Look at the telltale mark of who those saints are by taking all of the breaking of the seals together and you will see it as referring only to the saints that have died when left behind during calamity that sets up the great tribulation. You are only reading the fifth seal.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If you consider the many saints left behind that will die in that third part of the earth, that is why they were told to wait for a small season for the coming great tribulation when they will be resurrected after the great tribulation. Read on to the next chapter and ask the Lord if these be the same ones under the altar that was given white robes.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Then what you see next is applicable to them being resurrected after the great tribulation to serve the King of kings in representing Him all over the world in the coming new heaven and new earth where they can come to New Jerusalem and worship Him at His throne at various times during the millennium reign of Christ.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

We prophesy in part and know in part, but I do not believe I have shared anything contrary when I did not say they were ascended in their resurrected body at all.

 

[Earburner]

I clicked on those scriptural references and found nothing to the contrary of what I had shared. I did not say David's resurrected body was in Heaven, but I did say that this resurrection was temporary. That is why their bodies are still down here but because Jesus took Paradise up to Heaven, taking the captivity captive, all the spirits of the O.T. went up there with Him in Paradise.

Luke 18:8
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
John 3:18

None of those verses above reprove anything that I have shared.



Did it say David was there? No. Look at the telltale mark of who those saints are by taking all of the breaking of the seals together and you will see it as referring only to the saints that have died when left behind during calamity that sets up the great tribulation. You are only reading the fifth seal.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If you consider the many saints left behind that will die in that third part of the earth, that is why they were told to wait for a small season for the coming great tribulation when they will be resurrected after the great tribulation. Read on to the next chapter and ask the Lord if these be the same ones under the altar that was given white robes.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Then what you see next is applicable to them being resurrected after the great tribulation to serve the King of kings in representing Him all over the world in the coming new heaven and new earth where they can come to New Jerusalem and worship Him at His throne at various times during the millennium reign of Christ.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

We prophesy in part and know in part, but I do not believe I have shared anything contrary when I did not say they were ascended in their resurrected body at all.

I don't interpret the OT and NT scriptures through Revelation, but rather Revelation through the OT and NT scriptures.
For example, in Revelation 7:13-14, I don't view the words "of great tribulation", as being specific by that religious view of a great tribulation for a period 3.5 years.
I see that MANY Christians have endured "great tribulation", ever since the Lord Ascended.

That concoction of a 3.5 year great tribulation is derived through severe error, by misunderstanding the entirety of the 70 weeks in Daniel.

 

[Earburner]

I clicked on those scriptural references and found nothing to the contrary of what I had shared. I did not say David's resurrected body was in Heaven, but I did say that this resurrection was temporary. That is why their bodies are still down here but because Jesus took Paradise up to Heaven, taking the captivity captive, all the spirits of the O.T. went up there with Him in Paradise.

Are you sure it was temporary? I mean, the scriptures do make it very clear, that the Saints that rose after His Resurrection, were physical and were seen by many! Were they resurrected into New life, or were they only resuscitated, just to die again?
As for the latter, I can't see the Lord being cruel to His people in that way.

 

[Enow]

I don't interpret the OT and NT scriptures through Revelation, but rather Revelation through the OT and NT scriptures.
For example, in Revelation 7:13-14, I don't view the words "of great tribulation", as being specific by that religious view of a great tribulation for a period 3.5 years.
I see that MANY Christians have endured "great tribulation", ever since the Lord Ascended.

That concoction of a 3.5 year great tribulation is derived through severe error, by misunderstanding the entirety of the 70 weeks in Daniel.

We are in tribulation where the times of the Gentiles will end because of the falling away from the faith for why God has to come as the Bridegroom to judge the House of God first. That is why the dispensation of the gospel will go back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses after the rapture.

The great tribulation is not about when God pours out His wrath, but when the hour of temptation comes that shall try all upon the earth when the devil will wage war on the saints after that calamity of fire destroys one third of the earth, the entire western hemisphere. That sets the stage for why the rest of the world has to pool resources and place the mark of the beast system on everyone to buy & sell or else starve and die. The mark of the beast is that biochip for buying and selling which is being done now in Europe but it is not the mark of the beast yet until that becomes the only means to buy & sell which it will be during the great tribulation. Those who take that mark, are destined to the lake of fire, no matter what. The 3 angels in Revelations 14th chapter sets up that hour of temptations that shall try all upon the earth, by the first angel spreading the everlasting gospel everywhere, the second angel heralding the destruction of USA in that part of the third of the world that will get destroyed, and then the third angel telling everyone the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire so no one will be without excuse as that is the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth as that is the great tribulation by which the devil wages war on the saints that refuse the mark. This war during the great tribulation will intensifies when that peace treaty falls away halfway thru the great tribulation whereby the devil will chase after the Jews fleeing for their lives when the son of perdition reveals himself in that Third Temple. Then at that time during the great tribulation, it will be really bad for the Jews; so bad, there would be no other horrid time like it, but it is the devil persecuting the people of God more so at that moment in time.

So there is tribulation and then there is the great tribulation. We are only living in tribulation times where keeping the faith is the good fight. Those resurrected after the great tribulation are identified as those saints that did not take the mark nor bow to him for part of the reasons why they were killed, but that also includes the saints that got killed by that calamity of fire that destroyed the third of the earth; the western hemisphere, or so I am led to believe. Since we prophesy in part and know in part, we will know the truth face to face when we see Him one day. Amen.

 

[Enow]

Are you sure it was temporary? I mean, the scriptures do make it very clear, that the Saints that rose after His Resurrection, were physical and were seen by many! Were they resurrected into New life, or were they only resuscitated, just to die again?
As for the latter, I can't see the Lord being cruel to His people in that way.

Well, the bones of David is still reported in his tomb so.. yeah.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

That was why Paul was addressing that issue to believers that had thought the resurrection was already past because the O.T. saints were resurrected for why some err from the truth and had their faith overthrown, but nevertheless the foundation and seal is still there for why they should be called to depart from iniquity too to avoid being received by Him as a vessel unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation by their resurrection.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

We do not know what had happened when they appeared unto many. Were they killed by the unbelieving mob and then they found their empty tomb and reburied them again? Or did they just dropped dead when the Lord ascended, taking Paradise with Him along with the souls of those O.T. saints and that thief on that was on the cross? Or both? Or could it be that only some were resurrected that appeared unto many & David was not one of them, because he was king??

We prophesy in part and know in part but apparently their dead bodies are still here for Peter to say so of David. So obviously the firstfruits of the resurrection had not happened yet for they would be in a glorified celestial body, and since they were resurrected when Jesus was, and He had not ascended yet, I tend to believe He had not yet prepare a place for them yet ( that mansion for His disciples in His Father's House ) since He did say He had to go away to prepare a place for us and then He will come back to receive us unto Himself as the Bridegroom does for the bride. John 14:1-3

So I imagine Paradise in the third heaven serves in that capacity for all the spirits of the saints, Old and New, while awaiting for the firstfruits of the resurrection when the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride of Christ so we all sit down at that table with the O.T. saints at that time ( Luke 13:24-30 )

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Amen!

It always makes me chuckle when these guys give out their man made truth (generally false) and mock others for having man made truth. Since their teaching "obviously" came straight from heaven to their brain, why is it almost always unbiblical?

I think that the level of spiritual teaching in many churches is at low tide.
good ideas and teaching are not discussed and fellowshipped around.
When someone offers undiluted teaching, there is little appetite for it. They treat a faithful believer as an enemy, rather than a brother.

 

[Earburner]

That was why Paul was addressing that issue to believers that had thought the resurrection was already past because the O.T. saints were resurrected for why some err from the truth and had their faith overthrown, but nevertheless the foundation and seal is still there for why they should be called to depart from iniquity too to avoid being received by Him as a vessel unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation by their resurrection.

When you think about it, in regards to those saints who arise from their graves, after Christ's Resurrection, its rather disturbing that Matthew, Mark and John never even mention it. Even in the Epistles, its not even hinted at. With only one giving account of it, namely Luke, its easy to say that it might not have happened. Shouldn't there be at least two witnesses of testimony on such an event as that? Its almost as if all the churches, as a whole, don't want to elaborate on it at all. But still, there it is written by Luke, with assurity that it did happen.

Yes, I can see from that how some would think that the resurrection event was past. From that, even if from a negative perspective, its telling of that resurrection.
Could it be that it became such a stumbling block, that in the early church era, they just decided to not mention it, for fear of heresies being developed?

 

[Earburner]

We are in tribulation where the times of the Gentiles will end because of the falling away from the faith for why God has to come as the Bridegroom to judge the House of God first. That is why the dispensation of the gospel will go back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses after the rapture.

The great tribulation is not about when God pours out His wrath, but when the hour of temptation comes that shall try all upon the earth when the devil will wage war on the saints after that calamity of fire destroys one third of the earth, the entire western hemisphere. That sets the stage for why the rest of the world has to pool resources and place the mark of the beast system on everyone to buy & sell or else starve and die. The mark of the beast is that biochip for buying and selling which is being done now in Europe but it is not the mark of the beast yet until that becomes the only means to buy & sell which it will be during the great tribulation. Those who take that mark, are destined to the lake of fire, no matter what. The 3 angels in Revelations 14th chapter sets up that hour of temptations that shall try all upon the earth, by the first angel spreading the everlasting gospel everywhere, the second angel heralding the destruction of USA in that part of the third of the world that will get destroyed, and then the third angel telling everyone the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire so no one will be without excuse as that is the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth as that is the great tribulation by which the devil wages war on the saints that refuse the mark. This war during the great tribulation will intensifies when that peace treaty falls away halfway thru the great tribulation whereby the devil will chase after the Jews fleeing for their lives when the son of perdition reveals himself in that Third Temple. Then at that time during the great tribulation, it will be really bad for the Jews; so bad, there would be no other horrid time like it, but it is the devil persecuting the people of God more so at that moment in time.

So there is tribulation and then there is the great tribulation. We are only living in tribulation times where keeping the faith is the good fight. Those resurrected after the great tribulation are identified as those saints that did not take the mark nor bow to him for part of the reasons why they were killed, but that also includes the saints that got killed by that calamity of fire that destroyed the third of the earth; the western hemisphere, or so I am led to believe. Since we prophesy in part and know in part, we will know the truth face to face when we see Him one day. Amen.

Enow, I agree to much of what you say. However, I do not hold to a separate event of "the rapture", being prior to Jesus returning in the fullness of His Glory "in flaming fire. I see the rapture as being a simultaneous event of redemption for His church, and destruction upon all unbelievers, of whom none shall escape or be left alive.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Reggie Belafonte,

I would say that the OT Saints were of great faith but not of Grace, Grace only came with Jesus.
Moses did not know Grace.

This is error. All saints were saved by grace in the OT. or the NT.

 

[Enow]

When you think about it, in regards to those saints who arise from their graves, after Christ's Resurrection, its rather disturbing that Matthew, Mark and John never even mention it. Even in the Epistles, its not even hinted at. With only one giving account of it, namely Luke, its easy to say that it might not have happened. Shouldn't there be at least two witnesses of testimony on such an event as that? Its almost as if all the churches, as a whole, don't want to elaborate on it at all. But still, there it is written by Luke, with assurity that it did happen.

A minor correction; it was Matthew, not Luke that had reported that.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

As for Mark, Luke, & John not writing about that, to each their own, but it does lead credence to Matthew because of what was happening in Paul's epistle to Timothy about how some err from the truth and had their faith overthrown for believing that the resurrection had past already in 2 Timothy 2:18, mainly referring to the firstfruits of the resurrection when the Bridegroom comes back after preparing a place for the brides O.T. & N.T. saints.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

So how do we align this with the rest of scripture, including what Paul had written about Jesus descending and then ascending and Peter saying He led the captivity captive whereby the apostle John was in the third heaven where Paradise is now for him to write the Book of Revelations afterwards.

I think the misconception is assuming all bodies of the O.T. saints that were raised when it was many bodies of the O.T. saints that were raised. One may wonder if King David was resurrected, would they recognize him at all? Then there is that problem of being made king again. So the many that were resurrected had to be recent ones that people would recognize like the thief that was with Jesus in Paradise. Then they would have to bury them again when they gave up the ghost when Jesus took Paradise with Him.

I do not know about the what for and how and the who, I can only speculate from what is written when obviously not every O.T. saint were resurrected when the bones of David were still buried.

Some "scholars" believe it was symbolic, but the unexplainable darkness at Jesus crucifixion was a literal event where one secular historian, Thallus, had thought it was an eclipse which another Jew turned Christian historian, Josephus Africanus, said "unlikely" because the passover is 15 days from the new moon; hence a full moon at that time and an eclipse lasts only minutes, not hours. Add the earthquake, one can imagine the terror at that time where people just didn't want to believe what had happened, let alone think about the dead appearing unto many after His resurrection.

Shock. Trauma. Jews made not want to read that, but the Gentiles that were there, might when the Roman guards announced He is the Son of God.

Yes, I can see from that how some would think that the resurrection event was past. From that, even if from a negative perspective, its telling of that resurrection.
Could it be that it became such a stumbling block, that in the early church era, they just decided to not mention it, for fear of heresies being developed?

I believe the Lord led Matthew to testify of that for a reason and that was to declare that He did lead the captivity captive to the surface; the inhabitants of Paradise, before taking Paradise with the spirits of the inhabitants to Heaven where it is now located, still awaiting the firstfruits of the resurrection when the O.T. saints and those that are His disciples to receive their mansion in the Father's House together when the Bridegroom comes. That way, they have a hint on how & when Paradise aka Abraham's bosom was now located in the third Heaven by the apostle John & Paul.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.