Our desire for Holiness comes in the presence of almighty God.

[Addy]

@amigo de christo .. the post you just made on this thread about BB is slanderous... and it's gossip.
You could at least have the decency to include him in the conversation rather than talking behind his back.
Just sayin...

 

[Truman]

Munch, munch...

 

[David H.]

But it's a lot easier for you to attack your opponent than to show a Scriptural response. Claims of bias based in assumptions are a way to avoid profible discussion.

No one is attacking anyone here. So please get over it.... we are having a civil discussion/ Debate, when You debate you counter the arguments presented to others. Amongst those counter points is questioning the assumptions the other holds.

Assumptions and worldview determine each and everyone of our beliefs. Atheists begin with the assumption there is no God, and that influences their science of uniformitarianism. People in different countries believe differently than you do because of the ingrained assumptions in those cultures. For example, English religious beliefs are determined by their monarchial culture more so than American Beliefs which are rooted in democratic assumptions. Chinese Christians disagree with American Christians who believe in the Pre trib rapture because of the ingrained persecution they have experienced.

 

[David H.]

@marks ... I see you have met David.... LOL

@amigo de christo .. the post you just made on this thread about BB is slanderous... and it's gossip.
You could at least have the decency to include him in the conversation rather than talking behind his back.
Just sayin...

Such Hypocrisy....

Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?(Matthew 7:4)

 

[Addy]

Such Hypocrisy....

Hello to you too David...

I have taken note that you are not impressed with my sarcasm... and I've made note to look at WHO starts a thread.

As for slandering someone on a thread they know nothing about and have not been TAGGED... that is a different story... and I addressed that issue.

 

[David H.]

Hello to you too David...

I have taken note that you are not impressed with my sarcasm... and I've made note to look at WHO starts a thread.

As for slandering someone on a thread they know nothing about and have not been TAGGED... that is a different story... and I addressed that issue.

Got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and now trying to plead innocent or rather sarcasm.....
Shows your true character.

 

[Addy]

Got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and now trying to plead innocent or rather sarcasm.....
Shows your true character.

My reference to you was sarcasm... I did not hide in a random thread accusing you of things... and I don't gossip about you.

This is what I said....
@marks ... I see you have met David.... LOL

You have a reputation of twisting words and causing much strife. That's on you... NOT me...

However... I did come into your thread so... MY BAD. Peace be with you.

 

[David H.]

My reference to you was sarcasm... I did not hide in a random thread accusing you of things... and I don't gossip about you.

This is what I said....
@marks ... I see you have met David.... LOL

You have a reputation of twisting words and causing much strife. That's on you... NOT me...

However... I did come into your thread so... MY BAD. Peace be with you.

A sluggard is wiser in his own eyes than seven people who answer discreetly.
Like one who grabs a stray dog by the ears is someone who rushes into a quarrel not their own.
Like a maniac shooting flaming arrows of death
is one who deceives their neighbor and says, “I was only joking!”
Without wood a fire goes out; without a gossip a quarrel dies down. (Proverbs 26:16-20, NIV)

 

[marks]

No one is attacking anyone here. So please get over it....

Like usual, I identify what your behavior is. Take a clue, ignore it, whatever. But you can benefit if you wish.

You are trying to pass of that you have no reply as though I'm just rooted in some baseless assumptions. The fact of the matter is, instead of a refutation, you post ad hominem. I point it out, you continue in the same fashion, and once that starts, you don't seem to stop.

Much love!

 

[marks]

ssumptions and worldview determine each and everyone of our beliefs. Atheists begin with the assumption there is no God, and that influences their science of uniformitarianism. People in different countries believe differently than you do because of the ingrained assumptions in those cultures. For example, English religious beliefs are determined by their monarchial culture more so than American Beliefs which are rooted in democratic assumptions. Chinese Christians disagree with American Christians who believe in the Pre trib rapture because of the ingrained persecution they have experienced.

That you engage in these kinds of generalizations and labeling I think is part of the difficulty in our discussions. I've seen this numerous times, and it's deflection, and logical fallacy.

What it really is, is that you attempt to move the discussion away from the Bible when you cannot support your views, now you want to claim what my "assumptions" are, so you can not have to produce a Scriptural argument.

Different people see things different ways, got that! Now shall we return to the Bible?

Much love!

 

[farouk]

I am reminded - by the title of the thread - of Psalm 73:17:

"Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end."

 

[David H.]

That you engage in these kinds of generalizations and labeling I think is part of the difficulty in our discussions. I've seen this numerous times, and it's deflection, and logical fallacy.

Its not a logical fallacy, it comes from my background in the sociology and Philosophy of Knowledge. It is difficult for you because it gets to the root of how we develop our opinions. Until we see how our culture and upbringing and socialization have molded our opinions we have a hard time rising above them and arriving at the Truth.

What it really is, is that you attempt to move the discussion away from the Bible when you cannot support your views, now you want to claim what my "assumptions" are, so you can not have to produce a Scriptural argument.

Not at all, I am merely trying to get you to rise above those ingrained assumptions that influence your understanding of the Word of God. Many of your doctrines are right and truthful, But when You actually question them and come to the conclusion of their veracity, a whole new appreciation emerges for them. You will no longer question them but have assurance of them. In so doing you will grow Spiritually.

For example, for me personally, I was taught the doctrine of eternal security from child hood. But in encountering conditional security people and their scriptural support for this doctrine and they being strong brothers and sisters in Christ, I myself had to walk through this valley of doubt until I received assurance of salvation, and lived the doctrine..... This is what I hope to instill in you is the living doctrines of the Word of God. With that comes an appreciation for the doctrine of conditional security and why God has placed this in scripture That it would force us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling till we come to the full assurance of the faith.

 

[marks]

It is difficult for you because it gets to the root of how we develop our opinions.

I'm here to discuss the Bible. I have seen, yes, that you like to get into your opinions a lot. This kind of psychology stuff is fairly academic to me. I've studied these things a long time, but at the end of the day, I'm more interested in study of the Bible, and that's linguistic. From the language of the Bible we go on to base our thoughts. But first comes determining the intended meaning of the Scriptures.

The best, and to me, only proper basis for our opinions is God's Word. For instance any world view not reflected by Ecclesiastes is erroneous. And that book will shine a light an any false world view. To continue the example, we could talk about how world views are formed, and why people have the one they have, you grew up here, that was happening. Sure. Those things happen.

But I'm more interested in just learning the correct world view from the Bible itself. When you have the true, you know every false way.

This is where your thread title is 100% correct. As we learn Who God Is, we become transformed into His image. In His presence is fulness of joy, being holy as He is Holy. We learn Who God is both by learning rightly from His Word - not just any idea, the right idea, truth sets free, not error - and putting what we learn into how we make the choices of our lives. How we live.

The more we see of Him, in His Word, and in ourselves, the more we will want Him, which is the desire for holiness. To be pure to be with Him. This is where we remember we are reconciled in Christ, and not how we feel about ourselves at the moment. When we remember Christ is our righteousness, and our sanctification, we are free to in fact be with God, and in His presence be made pure.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

I'm here to discuss the Bible. I have seen, yes, that you like to get into your opinions a lot. This kind of psychology stuff is fairly academic to me. I've studied these things a long time, but at the end of the day, I'm more interested in study of the Bible, and that's linguistic. From the language of the Bible we go on to base our thoughts. But first comes determining the intended meaning of the Scriptures.

The best, and to me, only proper basis for our opinions is God's Word. For instance any world view not reflected by Ecclesiastes is erroneous. And that book will shine a light an any false world view. To continue the example, we could talk about how world views are formed, and why people have the one they have, you grew up here, that was happening. Sure. Those things happen.

But I'm more interested in just learning the correct world view from the Bible itself. When you have the true, you know every false way.

This is where your thread title is 100% correct. As we learn Who God Is, we become transformed into His image. In His presence is fulness of joy, being holy as He is Holy. We learn Who God is both by learning rightly from His Word - not just any idea, the right idea, truth sets free, not error - and putting what we learn into how we make the choices of our lives. How we live.

The more we see of Him, in His Word, and in ourselves, the more we will want Him, which is the desire for holiness. To be pure to be with Him. This is where we remember we are reconciled in Christ, and not how we feel about ourselves at the moment. When we remember Christ is our righteousness, and our sanctification, we are free to in fact be with God, and in His presence be made pure

The more we are understanding of and honest with our assumptions, and environment, the more unbiased our Biblical studies become, and the more we arrive at truth. That is what I have found to be true anyway. It is from this perspective we are able to appreciate those with diverse views and to love those who think differently than we do. For example, I see both Calvinists and Arminians as brothers in Christ, Or Pentecostals and fundamentalists, Or Jew and Gentile.... It is in my opinion, and i know you don't like opinions, that this understanding opens up unity in the church.

 

[marks]

The more we are understanding of and honest with our assumptions, and environment, the more unbiased our Biblical studies become, and the more we arrive at truth.

To me that goes without saying. Either we're putting out our own ideas there, or we are learning from the Bible.

That's why I'm such a stickler for showing doctrine from Scritpure. So many people get so many ideas! We just need to be well versed in the Word so we know which of those ideas don't match up.

As far as our unity goes, we have unity if we have the Holy Spirit, and we express unity when we are humble and trusting.

Much love!

 

[Truman]

To me that goes without saying. Either we're putting out our own ideas there, or we are learning from the Bible.

That's why I'm such a stickler for showing doctrine from Scritpure. So many people get so many ideas! We just need to be well versed in the Word so we know which of those ideas don't match up.

As far as our unity goes, we have unity if we have the Holy Spirit, and we express unity when we are humble and trusting.

Much love!

Our opinions are fine...as long as they line up with scripture!

 

[David H.]

To me that goes without saying. Either we're putting out our own ideas there, or we are learning from the Bible.

That's why I'm such a stickler for showing doctrine from Scritpure. So many people get so many ideas! We just need to be well versed in the Word so we know which of those ideas don't match up.

As far as our unity goes, we have unity if we have the Holy Spirit, and we express unity when we are humble and trusting.

So many people have different ideas because God created each of us unique. No one man knows the fulness of God But together, in the unity of Spirit and the fellowship we can see the whole of God and his creation more broadly.... for we know in part.

God Bless.

 

[marks]

So many people have different ideas because God created each of us unique. No one man knows the fulness of God But together, in the unity of Spirit and the fellowship we can see the whole of God and his creation more broadly.... for we know in part.

God Bless.

This is why I focus so much on the Bible itself. Tozer, others, all are just fine I'm sure! The Holy Spirit can lead us through man's opinions.

But to have the Bible ingrained in the mind through constant repetition! Then whatever is false comes along, and you know the Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit brings to mind those passages which show the truth in the face of error.

As we see we have a common faith in a single God, and we humble ourselves before Him, and before each other, then we can have that unity. Pride is the divider, I think.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So many people have different ideas because God created each of us unique.

The unique quality, that leads us all in different directions, that's the flesh. The Spirit leads closer together.

The reason one person looks at a passage claims it means one thing, while another looks at the same passage and claims it means another, the simple truth is that shows one or both simply are not interpretting by the Holy Spirit. Truth does not contradict.

Not ever Christian is intended to be a teacher, or a shepherd, or a prophet, or any of the other roles. It's given as Jesus intends, not what we intend for ourselves.

Many try to "be the one" to lead the way, the teacher of the flock, the speaker for God. Every word is to edify. Every word. None are to be false!

If God is behind the teaching, we will say the same things. God is not the author of confusion, people do that.

I don't look at Christian teaching and discipleship as a collection of believers getting together to "figure it all out". For me, these things are found in being led of the Spirit with Spirit led teachers. I believe we can know who these are by two key ways, a person's agreement with the text, and the agreement of their lifestyles with the text. And that includes what they say, and how they say it.

The Bible shows us the way of life. By correctly understanding the Bible, we can know this Way. The Bible shows us Who God is, and by knowing Him, we become like Him.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

This is why I focus so much on the Bible itself. Tozer, others, all are just fine I'm sure! The Holy Spirit can lead us through man's opinions.

But to have the Bible ingrained in the mind through constant repetition! Then whatever is false comes along, and you know the Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit brings to mind those passages which show the truth in the face of error.

As we see we have a common faith in a single God, and we humble ourselves before Him, and before each other, then we can have that unity. Pride is the divider, I think.

I Agree that the Word of God is first and foremost. For me personally I had to throw away all my man taught doctrines and begin with what I call Pauline ignorance (A play on Socratic ignorance) "To know nothing save Christ and Him Crucified", It was then that I immersed myself in the word of God and what the Holy Ghost was teaching me, when you do the word of God comes to life.... It is quick(Alive) and powerful.... This was my wilderness experience, And the outcome of this experience should be that we realize how little we know, and how we only Know in Part. There is no pride in this position.

There are other men of God who have walked this path in the past and currently, and it is in fellowship with them that we see more of the fulness of God. Tozer for me is one of these People. I Do not worship him nor see eye to eye on everything he wrote, But he adds depth to the things I Know, He has parts I do not have.... this is how fellowship brings growth. It is truly a blessing when we can read of, and have fellowship with these past and present brothers in the faith even when we do not see eye to eye with their doctrines, many of them were born to oppose certain heresies in the church at the time, with the light they had to do so, for example fundamentalism was born out of opposition to rational secularism of the teachings of Darwin etc. It was a good thing and is why i consider myself a fundamentalist, Yet this movement fell into textualism which is devoid of the Spirit, and a form of doctrinalism which denies the need for Holiness in the believer, which we are seeing debated on this forum continually (Hyper grace).

It is the same with the reformers, who reacting to the false veneration of the saints in the catholic church, came to the doctrine thst all believers are saints, thus disregarding the plain common sense text of scripture.... thus they threw the baby out with the bathwater.... This happens very frequently... and is human nature to bounce between two opinions rather than to arrive at the truth. The adversary knows this as well and keeps us bouncing between two opinions and why this is a mark of the maturity of the believer not to do so. "For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?" (1 Corinthians 3:4) In todays battles it is "I am of Calvin, I am of Arminius", "I am a fundamentalist, I Am A Pentecostal" etc.

Paul planted the seed, Apollos watered the seed. salvation is not of works, But works follow salvation.... the teaching of the journey to sainthood is exactly that, not to divide, to water the Body, to show you there is more to having Christ as your savior, Which comes from making him Lord of your life. That we do not fall into complacency and come to see we need more of Jesus, each and every day of our Spiritual journey.

God bless