Our desire for Holiness comes in the presence of almighty God.

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marks

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Our opinions are fine...as long as they line up with scripture!

It was a good thing and is why i consider myself a fundamentalist, Yet this movement fell into textualism which is devoid of the Spirit, and a form of doctrinalism which denies the need for Holiness in the believer, which we are seeing debated on this forum continually (Hyper grace).

This is why again that I prefer to immerse into the Bible itself. I read others sometimes, but not very often. The Bible changes us. If we are God's children, and we are willing to submit to what we read, the Bible changes how our minds work, how we feel about things, our opinions of what is happening in the world, in our lives, all of it.

Other books, to the extent that they can bring us more Scripture, will do the same, but only to that extent. So many books perpetuate error. Whether it be legalism or licentiousness, The Bible itself is the One Book that will be right All the Time.

Books will teach you, sometimes, correctly, sometimes not. The Bible not only teaches you, but it changes you, as it forms your mind to match it's words.

As far as denying the need for holiness, naturally God makes us holy as He is holy. To miss holiness is to miss a big part of the reason for which we are saved. To claim that we will only be saved in proportion to our holiness, though, is error, Jesus is able to save to the uttermost. We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of of our selves, it is the gift of God.

Salvation is a gift, when we believe, God rebirths us.

Trying to force holiness by claiming it is required to be saved as though it were some kind of work by which we inform God that He gave us birth is an appeal to the flesh, and will receive a fleshy result.

Any form of "works for salvation" teaching is an appeal from flesh to flesh, and has nothing to do with the God Who saves us in His grace, His kindness towards us in forgiving our sins. Not because we convince Him we're "oh so holy!" That would be getting back to our opinions, and we don't always have the right opinion, at least, imo.

Much love!
 
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Truman

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I think there are sometimes things that can impede a believer from receiving all the Lord has for them. But yeah, it is Christ's finished work on the cross that enables it all.
 
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amigo de christo

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I spent some time considering whether I should write that or not, but I'm telling you my perceptions, and what they mean to me. It's anything but snide. Take it as you will. My hope is that it would cause you to reflect.

Much love!
JESUS ONLY SAVES . so my hope is that folks would examine and make sure its the BIBLICAL VERSION OF JESUS they really do love and follow .
Many folks can claim , as did i , they believe in JESUS . But i am sure you already realize that not everyone who lips His name
is truly HIS . ANd its not that crying out to JESUS does not save us , IT DOES . FAITH IN JESUS IS WHAT SAVES .
ITS what version of said JESUS is one following that matters . Cause the emergents have one version , the prosperity gospel another
the sin embracing another and etc . WHO WE LOVE , WHO WE OBEY , SHOWS THE PROOF OF WHOSE WE TRULY ARE .
JESUS aint nor wasnt just some wise prophet , some wise man . GOD IN FLESH . Let us all remember this .
AM i saying that IF JESUS said something that this means GOD DID . YEAH I AM SAYING THAT . AND I TAKE IT TO MY GRAVE .
JESUS is not just a way to GOD , BUT RATHER IS THE ONLY WAY . I TAKE THIS TO MY GRAVE . No matter how dumb it makes me
look to such wise scholars and well esteemed preachers . I STAND ON IT . AND I BANK ON IT .
 
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amigo de christo

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You are my friend and I love you.

@Blood Bought 1953 may not have the most palettable manner. He's not like me, I know that. And maybe that's good, and maybe not, I'm not the judge.

I find that telling the children of God that they still have to fear the possibility of coming spiritual death to be debilitating to the faith that allows us to live godly lives.

Hebrews 2:11-15 KJV
11) For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12) Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13) And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Tell me . . . should we still fear that we could yet die?

Much love!
Tell them TO TRUST ONLY IN CHRIST and to test all other doctrines of men . And tell them the same things paul did .
The gospel by which you are saved , IF YOU KEEP THAT IN MEMORY , lest you have believed in vain .
IT aint a sin to tell folks they gotta continue in Christ . JESUS SAID IT FIRST . This is the problem with lots of folks .
THEY act like telling folks we must endure to the end is some kind of sin . YET JESUS said it both on earth and IN HEAVEN TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES . SO why is it a sin to do so today . That is the real question .
 

marks

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I think there are sometimes things that can impede a believer from receiving all the Lord has for them. But yeah, it is Christ's finished work on the cross that enables it all.

What I've seen to be the greatest obstacle is the feeling of our own disqualification. When we think we aren't being good enough for God. If we get the idea that sins will now once again separate us from God, then as we are aware of sins in our lives, then we draw back from God.

No, only holding firmly to the finished work of Christ on the cross will keep us from sin. Doubt in the efficacy of Jesus' death is not faith. And Romans 5:1-2 make it clear the same faith that saves us is the same faith that let's us stand in grace.

"If our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things". What is it that He knows, that we are forgetting, when our heart condemns us?

And this condemning heart, is that the spiritual heart of the new man? Or the fleshy heart of man?

It's the fleshy heart of man that says you cannot come before the throne, at any time, all times, in times when we are most needing. Sin no longer separates us from God, because God has separated us from sin.

Much love!
 

David H.

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As far as denying the need for holiness, naturally God makes us holy as He is holy. To miss holiness is to miss a big part of the reason for which we are saved. To claim that we will only be saved in proportion to our holiness, though, is error, Jesus is able to save to the uttermost. We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of of our selves, it is the gift of God.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. (1 Corinthians 3:6)

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (James 2:18)

We are justified by faith (Galatians 2:16) But works follow faith... works are the result of the seed of justification being watered by the Spirit. Thus faith grows. This is what holiness teaching is all about... not justification but maturation and growth SPIRITUALLY. The doctrines some espouse keeps the believer in a perpetual state of immaturity being satisfied that they have the seed planted, having never been watered, like the man who was given one talent who hid it in the ground....

This is the full counsel of Scripture for the Christian. What happened to the person who hid the talent in the ground which he was given? This is why Jesus hates the Nicolaitans deeds and doctrines, because they keep the new believer in a perpetual state of infancy spiritually, dependent on those lording over them, and why the complacency of the believer is such an evil in the site of God and the Laodicean church....

I Hope and pray, you and others reading this see and understand what is said here.... or as scripture says: "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
 
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Truman

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What I've seen to be the greatest obstacle is the feeling of our own disqualification. When we think we aren't being good enough for God. If we get the idea that sins will now once again separate us from God, then as we are aware of sins in our lives, then we draw back from God.

No, only holding firmly to the finished work of Christ on the cross will keep us from sin. Doubt in the efficacy of Jesus' death is not faith. And Romans 5:1-2 make it clear the same faith that saves us is the same faith that let's us stand in grace.

"If our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things". What is it that He knows, that we are forgetting, when our heart condemns us?

And this condemning heart, is that the spiritual heart of the new man? Or the fleshy heart of man?

It's the fleshy heart of man that says you cannot come before the throne, at any time, all times, in times when we are mos - t needing. Sin no longer separates us from God, because God has separated us from sin.

Much love!
When I am here with You alone, kneeling before Your throne, my heart has found it's home...in You! - Truman Coates
What an awesome God we serve!
 
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marks

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We are justified by faith (Galatians 2:16) But works follow faith... works are the result of the seed of justification being watered by the Spirit. Thus faith grows. This is what holiness teaching is all about... not justification but maturation and growth SPIRITUALLY. The doctrines some espouse keeps the believer in a perpetual state of immaturity being satisfied that they have the seed planted, having never been watered, like the man who was given one talent who hid it in the ground....
You seem perpetually focused on the first principles. Or it's your affection of innuendo.

You wrote before that you believe in eternal security of the believer, but that you think the new Christian shouldn't be taught that, and instead should be taught to think they have to do good works to keep themself saved. Do you still think that?

Is it your view that Christians require threats so that they will apply themselves to growth?

And do you ever get tired of boxing the air (ie Straw Men "believers who don't think they mature")?

This is poor logic to try to refute my assertion that we aren't waiting for Second Pentacost, but in fact, God has already given us what we need. Is if in saying, God has given us what we need, as if to say, we don't use it?

The logic is comparable to me saying, we are to run this race, and you say, but I don't have shoes! To which I reply, yes, you do, they are on your feet, and you answer, "What! You think we don't have to run!!" It's Non-Sequitor.

That God has given us all we need for life and godliness is a matter of Scripture. Plain and clear statements. Your objection in claiming that if someone believes this that they don't go on to avail themselves of those promises is absurd. Non-Sequitor. Meaningless.

Belief that this is true is in the faith that opens the door to partaking in His holy nature.

Much love!
 

David H.

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You seem perpetually focused on the first principles. Or it's your affection of innuendo.

You wrote before that you believe in eternal security of the believer, but that you think the new Christian shouldn't be taught that, and instead should be taught to think they have to do good works to keep themself saved. Do you still think that?

Incorrect. Eternal security comes with Spiritual maturity, the seed has to be watered and grow. You have a deep misunderstanding of what I believe. Justification is by faith.... the seed planted.... Consecration is by the Spirit.... the plant being watered. A seed planted is good for nothing until it grows. Keeping believers in a perpetual state of complacency with their justification is detrimental to the believer and to the church, and this is done by DEEDS and DOCTRINES of the Nicolaitans. Nicolaitans are not just found in the Catholic church, but all the denominations and in the hyper grace camps in particular of fundamentalism.

God bringeth the growth of the seed. None of it is "OUR" work, but the Work of the Holy Spirit, God with us, His presence is the IMPETUS for Growth as this OP discusses. To water that seed is to encourage its growth which is what He sent me to do.
 

marks

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Eternal security comes with Spiritual maturity, the seed has to be watered and grow.
So to be clear, you do not believe that a person being born again will always remain forever born again? I didn't know that.

Much love!
 

marks

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A seed planted is good for nothing until it grows. Keeping believers in a perpetual state of complacency with their justification is detrimental
This would show the logical fallacy of false dichotomy, as if these were your only options.

In fact, you can have a person born again, who will forever remain born again, because that's what God does, who then goes on to spiritual maturity. To so narrowly limit this, well, it betrays a predudice in the discussion. That you need to misrepresent the opposing view, so you can argue against your misrepresentation. AKA the Straw Man.

But then, you've also changed the wording. I'm speaking of the one who is reborn, born from above, born from God.

Truth sets us free.

Much love!
 

marks

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Justification is by faith.... the seed planted.... Consecration is by the Spirit.... the plant being watered.
Where do you see justification in terms of rebirth?

To my understanding, this is the same event, being immersed into Christ's death, and being raised with Him. We are raised justified, and reborn. What is your thinking?

Much love!
 

David H.

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Where do you see justification in terms of rebirth?

To my understanding, this is the same event, being immersed into Christ's death, and being raised with Him. We are raised justified, and reborn. What is your thinking?

Watch video again.

 

David H.

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I don't watch videos.

If you wish to share a comment, please, feel free to do so.

Much love!

Too bad.

Point being most people who claim to be born again are not, because they have never been regenerated at conversion. Some Place regeneration as the second move of the Holy Ghost in the believer (Catholic, Lutheran), Others see it as one in the same with being Born again (Methodist), I Think it works both ways depending on where and when the person converted. Regeneration starts the process of renewal by the Holy Ghost (AKA Progressive sanctification). (Titus 3:5)

some place it like this: conversion leads to regeneration (Baptism), followed by renewal. (Lutheran, Catholic)
Others see it as: Conversion is regeneration which leads to renewal. (Methodist)

For me you are not born again until you have been regenerated whenever that occurs. What most who pray the sinners prayer are stuck in is believing with the mind about Jesus, But not with the heart... in other words they are stuck in limbo of believing something mentally but that belief has not changed them.
 

marks

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Where do you see justification in terms of rebirth?

To my understanding, this is the same event, being immersed into Christ's death, and being raised with Him. We are raised justified, and reborn. What is your thinking?

Much love!

Romans 6:3-7 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

These show justification and rebirth to be both accomplished by baptizing us into Christ, to share His death and resurrection.

We are justified being crucified with Jesus, His death becomes our death, satisfying the requirement of righteousness, and releasing us from the body of death. In Christ we are through His death both justified and reborn.

Some people think of rebirth as either a process that happens over time, or something that comes later after we are judged worthy. Both of these errors overlook the fact that we are already crucified, already justified, and already alive in Christ. Rebirth is spoken of throughout the New Testament as something that happens to us once, and is an accomplished fact afterward.

1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

He "has" begetton us again.

We must never let the error of thinking that we are in a spiritual state of "lack". That we lack the ability, the resources, help from God to live godly lives.

By trusting in God's provision for us NOW, we can live godly lives NOW.

We aren't trying to become "more" Christian. We are trying to become more consistenly walking our Christianity. The message of "lack" attacks our faith, and by faith we stand in grace. Grace - God's kindness towards us in forgiving our sins and giving us His Spirit. Grace, given to us Jesus Christ.

The idea of a "process of rebirth" is trying to explain defeat, and we are not intended to live defeated. We fail, so we say, I just don'thave what it takes yet! I sure hope I can get that Second Benefit soon!! I'd sure like to stop this sin!

OK, I know, and very well, that our sanctification will be seen in God's time. I don't say that it will happen, I say, it will be seen. The simple truth is, According to Romans 6, translating literally, "the one who died is justified away from sin". Freed, rebirthed, new person, no longer from the line of Adam. We were in the First Man, who is corrupted in sin, and condemned. We died, and were raised in the Last Man, Who is the Lord of Heaven, and lives eternally. And we share His life.

In the teaching of the renewing of our minds, this is describing how we learn over time to stop thinking according to the way we used to be, and to learn to think according to who we have become in our rebirth.

We shouldn't confuse the renewing of the mind with our becoming "more" born again, or "more" baptized in the Spirit, or anything like that. The reason this is important is that we are to trust God, and to trust His Word.

2 Peter 1:2-4 KJV
2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

When we read passages such as this above, if we don't think it's true, if we think we are waiting for some necessary part, this is a lack of faith that these words are in fact true. We walk by faith. If we aren't trusting, we won't be walking.

We can have a full and complete faith in Christ and in His Word, knowing that He has in FACT given us everything we need to live godly lives. If we will trust that this is true!

And in so trusting, then we are able to choose to do that.

Much love!
 

David H.

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With regeneration comes assurance of salvation, and abiding in the vine leads to Renewal by the Holy Ghost. If you have never been regenerated , Eternal security does not apply.... You can teach them this as a doctrine, but until they have experienced regeneration they cannot claim this as a reality.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (2 Peter 1:8-10)
 

marks

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Our desire for holiness comes in the presence of God.

I keep coming back to your title because I think it's good!! So completely true!

When God comes to live in us, changing us into being like Him, this brings our desire for holiness. When He is in us, we desire holiness.

Much love!
 

marks

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You can teach them this as a doctrine, but until they have experienced regeneration they cannot claim this as a reality.
Very true!

Doctrined of salvation do not apply to the unsaved. Another tautology.

Much love!