Our desire for Holiness comes in the presence of almighty God.

[David H.]

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. (Isaiah 6:3-5)

When God makes his presence known, and the Believer experiences the Holiness of God, His presence will put them on the ground in repentance. Revivals are such, when the Presence of God is seen and known, and men and women become conscious of their wickedness and impurity and come seeking God's cleansing. This includes unbelievers and believers alike. Like Isaiah above, We must become undone with ourselves for us to serve almighty God. It is Only then that God anoints a vessel for His workmanship.

Amongst those in the Holiness movements this is known as the "second work of Grace". It is the throwing away of Original sin in our lives, and The subsequent "entire sanctification" and infilling of the Holy Ghost.

"The Largest Holiness Denomination, the Nazarene Church explains that:

We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect. It is wrought by the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service. Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness."
Holiness movement - Wikipedia

Have you been in the presence of Almighty God, and experienced your unworthiness? Many in this generation have not as there have been no large revivals since the Hebrides revival in the middle of the last century. Our desire to submit to the sanctifying work of the Holy Ghost will lead to that Revival.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. (Isaiah 6:3-5)

When God makes his presence known, and the Believer experiences the Holiness of God, His presence will put them on the ground in repentance. Revivals are such, when the Presence of God is seen and known, and men and women become conscious of their wickedness and impurity and come seeking God's cleansing. This includes unbelievers and believers alike. Like Isaiah above, We must become undone with ourselves for us to serve almighty God. It is Only then that God anoints a vessel for His workmanship.

Amongst those in the Holiness movements this is known as the "second work of Grace". It is the throwing away of Original sin in our lives, and The subsequent "entire sanctification" and infilling of the Holy Ghost.

"The Largest Holiness Denomination, the Nazarene Church explains that:

We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect. It is wrought by the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service. Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness."
Holiness movement - Wikipedia

Have you been in the presence of Almighty God, and experienced your unworthiness? Many in this generation have not as there have been no large revivals since the Hebrides revival in the middle of the last century. Our desire to submit to the sanctifying work of the Holy Ghost will lead to that Revival.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

I have been baptized by the Holy Spirit and have had experienced His presence many times. Not once did I feel unworthy; since it is Christ's righteousness that I am clothed with. He washed me spiritually.
Sanctification is both instant spiritually but also a gradual process that transforms the individual into a Christ-like person. We have our moments of perfection when we are doing God's will, but it this possible be completely perfected in character while we still possess the flesh (where sin dwells)?
We have this dual nature, one that has been perfected and yet the other that has not, the old self we are supposed to die to - everyday. We still sin, though it is not sin unto death, we just aren't finished yet, until we get rid of our flesh, physically die and/or are resurrected. Then we will been perfect. As much as we see Christians who appear almost perfect, they still have flaws that come out. The apostles were not perfect, they made mistakes. Paul rebuked Peter for his errors. Was Mother Teresa perfect? She was unselfish, a godly servant, loved God and others to the end - but not perfect. Billy Grahamn claimed he was a sinner.
It is impossible to live a 100% life of perfection. The spirit wars against the flesh and vice versa.
We will be glorified someday soon.

 

[David H.]

I have been baptized by the Holy Spirit and have had experienced His presence many times. Not once did I feel unworthy; since it is Christ's righteousness that I am clothed with. He washed me spiritually.
Sanctification is both instant spiritually but also a gradual process that transforms the individual into a Christ-like person. We have our moments of perfection when we are doing God's will, but it this possible be completely perfected in character while we still possess the flesh (where sin dwells)?
We have this dual nature, one that has been perfected and yet the other that has not, the old self we are supposed to die to - everyday. We still sin, though it is not sin unto death, we just aren't finished yet, until we get rid of our flesh, physically die and/or are resurrected. Then we will been perfect. As much as we see Christians who appear almost perfect, they still have flaws that come out. The apostles were not perfect, they made mistakes. Paul rebuked Peter for his errors. Was Mother Teresa perfect? She was unselfish, a godly servant, loved God and others to the end - but not perfect. Billy Grahamn claimed he was a sinner.
It is impossible to live a 100% life of perfection. The spirit wars against the flesh and vice versa.
We will be glorified someday soon.

Yes it is Christ's righteousness we are clothed with, But His Holiness should be an impetus for our surrender to the work of sanctification of the Holy Ghostsss.

There is a lot of debate between the "free grace" People and the "obedience" People in the church.... The Holiness concept is the right way between those two camps. We are HIS workmanship.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yes it is Christ's righteousness we are clothed with, But His Holiness should be an impetus for our surrender to the work of sanctification of the Holy Ghostsss.

There is a lot of debate between the "free grace" People and the "obedience" People in the church.... The Holiness concept is the right way between those two camps. We are HIS workmanship.

I agree. The Holy Spirit leads us towards perfection, and that will come When we are finally rid of our flesh.

>>>"The movement is Wesleyan-Arminian in theology, and is defined by its emphasis on the doctrine of a second work of grace generally called entire sanctification leading to Christian perfection. For the Holiness Movement "the term 'perfection' signifies completeness of Christian character; its freedom from all sin, and possession of all the graces of the Spirit, complete in kind."Wikipedia<<
I think the consummation of His redemptive work will come and be completed when we are resurrected - but not before then.

 

[David H.]

I agree. The Holy Spirit leads us towards perfection, and that will come When we are finally rid of our flesh.

>>>"The movement is Wesleyan-Arminian in theology, and is defined by its emphasis on the doctrine of a second work of grace generally called entire sanctification leading to Christian perfection. For the Holiness Movement "the term 'perfection' signifies completeness of Christian character; its freedom from all sin, and possession of all the graces of the Spirit, complete in kind."Wikipedia<<
I think the consummation of His redemptive work will come and be completed when we are resurrected - but not before then.

I think the consummation of his redemptive work will come shortly before the resurrection in the saints with the latter rain and outpouring of the Spirit.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I think the consummation of his redemptive work will come shortly before the resurrection in the saints with the latter rain and outpouring of the Spirit.

Our resurrection a key part of the consummation, and the fullness of redemption. Judgment Day, destruction of all unbelievers, Death and Hades thrown into the Lake of Fire along with Satan and his horde, the first heaven and earth passes away and then the New Jerusalem is presented - that would be the rest of it.

 

[David H.]

I am a Mid-Trib/Pre-wrath advocate and have been for a long time.

Our resurrection a key part of the consummation, and the fullness of redemption. Judgment Day, destruction of all unbelievers, Death and Hades thrown into the Lake of Fire along with Satan and his horde, the first heaven and earth passes away and then the New Jerusalem is presented - that would be the rest of it.

I Like You am prewrath, mid trib. I see the day of our redemption/Rapture as being the day of Christ, what follows is the time of Jacob's trouble. That being said, I think shortly before the Great tribulation the church age ends, and the church of the saints, the overcomers reaches the fulness of Christ. In other words I see a prophecy in Ephesians 4:11-16 of the time shortly before the Great tribulation starts, Where the church becomes the saints. It is not something many see in scripture, But it is the work of the Holy Ghost, and by this we overcome Satan and cause him to be cast down to earth (Revelation 12:10-11). Yes, Ultimately the consummation is when Christ comes and we are transformed, but that latter rain is what prepares us for his coming.

I Think these two events have been confused which has led to many beliefs in the pretrib rapture by our brothers and sisters in Christ. for me it is at the beginning of the Great tribulation is the latter rain/end of the church age, and at the seventh trumpet is the rapture.

God bless.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I Like You am prewrath, mid trib. I see the day of our redemption/Rapture as being the day of Christ, what follows is the time of Jacob's trouble. That being said, I think shortly before the Great tribulation the church age ends, and the church of the saints, the overcomers reaches the fulness of Christ. In other words I see a prophecy in Ephesians 4:11-16 of the time shortly before the Great tribulation starts, Where the church becomes the saints. It is not something many see in scripture, But it is the work of the Holy Ghost, and by this we overcome Satan and cause him to be cast down to earth (Revelation 12:10-11). Yes, Ultimately the consummation is when Christ comes and we are transformed, but that latter rain is what prepares us for his coming.

I Think these two events have been confused which has led to many beliefs in the pretrib rapture by our brothers and sisters in Christ. for me it is at the beginning of the Great tribulation is the latter rain/end of the church age, and at the seventh trumpet is the rapture.

God bless.

So you say the Church become saints prior to the GT? I always thought a Christian is a saint already. Actually a few people referred to me as a saint! Lol. I don't think so, maybe when I do the Lord's will for that moment - then I turn back into a dirty rotten scoundrel - just kidding.
We are certainly not all saints in the view of Catholics. We will become priests too.

 

[marks]

Our resurrection a key part of the consummation, and the fullness of redemption. Judgment Day, destruction of all unbelievers, Death and Hades thrown into the Lake of Fire along with Satan and his horde, the first heaven and earth passes away and then the New Jerusalem is presented - that would be the rest of it.

Our spirits are new, we are redeemed. And our bodies will be new, redeemed, in our resurrection.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So you say the Church become saints prior to the GT? I always thought a Christian is a saint already. Actually a few people referred to me as a saint! Lol. I don't think so, maybe when I do the Lord's will for that moment - then I turn back into a dirty rotten scoundrel - just kidding.
We are certainly not all saints in the view of Catholics. We will become priests too.

Not in the view of Catholics, no, but just looking at how "saint" is used in the NT, and in particular Paul's letters, I for one see a very clear pattern of teaching that being born of God makes you a saint.

We are not waiting to be "sainted", that's that Catholic thing.

Saint means one who is set apart for God. Being born His child does that. We become His.

Much love!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Our spirits are new, we are redeemed. And our bodies will be new, redeemed, in our resurrection.

Much love!

Right, already spiritually redeemd, and now waiting to exchange this body for a new one.

 

[David H.]

So you say the Church become saints prior to the GT? I always thought a Christian is a saint already. Actually a few people referred to me as a saint! Lol. I don't think so, maybe when I do the Lord's will for that moment - then I turn back into a dirty rotten scoundrel - just kidding.
We are certainly not all saints in the view of Catholics. We will become priests too.

One of the few things I agree with the Catholics on, Though i do not take it to the point of veneration of the saints.... "for the perfecting of the saints" (Ephesians 4:12)

The church consists of the faithful and the saints, the saints are chosen by God, Not by merit, and are taken to the wilderness and prepared for their calling.... "Make your calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10). All the faithful are on that same road to sainthood but not all are called to make the saintly sacrifice.

 

[marks]

One of the few things I agree with the Catholics on, Though i do not take it to the point of veneration of the saints.... "for the perfecting of the saints" (Ephesians 4:12)

How do you divide this letter this way? Here's what I'm asking. If the saints and the faithful are describing the same people, the letter applies to all, right? And if the saints and the faithful are different, but are treated by God as the same, then again, where actually IS a difference?

So my question is this.

This part:

Ephesians 1:1-2 KJV
1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Is grace and peace to the saints? To the faithful? To both? Is it a "different grace" to the saints? Than the faithful? A lessor grace for them?

This part:

Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Are you saying then that Jesus gave apostles, and prophets, and evangelists, and pastor/teachers for the perfecting of the "saints", but not the "faithful"?

Are you saying God's intent is to leave the "faithful" unperfected?

Ephesians 6:18 KJV
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Are we to pray for the "saints" and leave the "faithful" to their own devices? Pray sometimes, but for all the time praying, that's just for the "saints"?

Ephesians 4:7 KJV
7) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Or is there more of a unity in these passages?

Ephesians 4:12-13 KJV
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Isn't that God's true intent for us? All of us, into the same unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, He Who came down to lift us up.

John 17:20-23 KJV
20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

How do you divide this letter this way? Here's what I'm asking. If the saints and the faithful are describing the same people, the letter applies to all, right? And if the saints and the faithful are different, but are treated by God as the same, then again, where actually IS a difference?

So my question is this.

This part:

Ephesians 1:1-2 KJV
1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Is grace and peace to the saints? To the faithful? To both? Is it a "different grace" to the saints? Than the faithful? A lessor grace for them?

This part:

Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Are you saying then that Jesus gave apostles, and prophets, and evangelists, and pastor/teachers for the perfecting of the "saints", but not the "faithful"?

Are you saying God's intent is to leave the "faithful" unperfected?

Ephesians 6:18 KJV
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Are we to pray for the "saints" and leave the "faithful" to their own devices? Pray sometimes, but for all the time praying, that's just for the "saints"?

Ephesians 4:7 KJV
7) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Or is there more of a unity in these passages?

Ephesians 4:12-13 KJV
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Isn't that God's true intent for us? All of us, into the same unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, He Who came down to lift us up.

John 17:20-23 KJV
20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Much love!

Simple common sense.... "The candy I bought is for you and your sister" You are not your sister, nor is she you. (Verse 1)
"You can both eat the candy which i bought for you." (verse 2)

We are all on the same road to sainthood, but in each generation and church, only a few are selected to make the saintly sacrifice. The Apostles were Martyred for their faith, But hundreds, thousands were not. They are all part of the Body of Christ, they all are on the same road, "many are called, few are chosen." This choice is by God's will, not the individuals will.

And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. (1 Corinthians 12:26)

God is not leaving the faithful unperfected, He is however accelerating the process in those He has elected to be saints. We all walk on the same path to sainthood. (2 Peter 1:5-9) In the end, I believe (my Opinion) is that there will be a group that have reached this fulness and the rest of the faithful will go into the wilderness for their perfecting.... this being the later rain, Those who are saints already (Making their calling and election sure) will face the beast and his war on the saints who will stand in the Gap and protect the faithful, Just like the skin protects the Body from infections and attack.

 

[marks]

Simple common sense.... "The candy I bought is for you and your sister" You are not your sister, nor is she you. (Verse 1)
"You can both eat the candy which i bought for you." (verse 2)

That doesn't make any sense. Try to exegete that from the passage.

You cannot.

This is arbitrarly parsing the Word of God to fit your doctrine of division and disbelief.

You cannot show these ideas exegetically from any part of the Bible. It's simply not there. I keep saying this to challenge. Try. Try from the Bible to show this mocking fool your teaching is true.

You cannot because it simply is not there.

David, I do love you, and that is why I continue to dialog with you, but I challenge you, re-examine your view, and find that the Holy Spirit gives you all of God's promise to you, without delay, other than His program for your life.

If you believe there is more for you spiritually, I believe this alongside you, and it's completely true for both of us. If you rely on Christ for your justification, In Christ you have EVERY spiritual blessing. Taking ahold of these in faith is to put on the new man, who was created according to God.

Take ahold, and walk in it.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

That doesn't make any sense. Try to exegete that from the passage.

You cannot.

This is arbitrarly parsing the Word of God to fit your doctrine of division and disbelief.

You cannot show these ideas exegetically from any part of the Bible. It's simply not there. I keep saying this to challenge. Try. Try from the Bible to show this mocking fool your teaching is true.

You cannot because it simply is not there.

David, I do love you, and that is why I continue to dialog with you, but I challenge you, re-examine your view, and find that the Holy Spirit gives you all of God's promise to you, without delay, other than His program for your life.

If you believe there is more for you spiritually, I believe this alongside you, and it's completely true for both of us. If you rely on Christ for your justification, In Christ you have EVERY spiritual blessing. Taking ahold of these in faith is to put on the new man, who was created according to God.

Take ahold, and walk in it.

Christians are not automatons who believe the same things you do exactly. We each walk the same path to sainthood, but none of us take the same steps. I Have given you Ample scriptural proof for this position of mine, including a rather long winded post on this topic. You just do not see it or want to see it. I am now resorting to using simple common sense and logic in the hopes that you may come to see it.
That analogy is how I read Ephesians 1:1-2.... It is just common sense to me, "Here is some candy for you and your sister" "It is for both of you". You read this passage as; "Here is some candy for you and you, it is for you" To me this makes no sense literarily and grammatically. The faithful and the saints are two different entities in the Body Other wise Paul would not have put "and" there and separated them.

 

[marks]

Christians are not automatons who believe the same things you do exactly. We each walk the same path to sainthood, but none of us take the same steps. I Have given you Ample scriptural proof for this position of mine, including a rather long winded post on this topic. You just do not see it or want to see it. I am now resorting to using simple common sense and logic in the hopes that you may come to see it.
That analogy is how I read Ephesians 1:1-2.... It is just common sense to me, "Here is some candy for you and your sister" "It is for both of you". You read this passage as; "Here is some candy for you and you, it is for you" To me this makes no sense literarily and grammatically. The faithful and the saints are two different entities in the Body Other wise Paul would not have put "and" there and separated them.

If you want to convince me of anything . . . first, I don't accept that you have much maturity in the Lord, given how you act. How you speak to me. About me. Not just me, others. I've seen you do the same to others. It's just the way it is. You bury people in accusations of whatever when they contradict your teaching. That says a lot!

It tells me the practical application of your beliefs.

And alongside that . . .

While you claim you've presented Scriptural evidence, it's been so very thin. If you want to convince me, you will need to show the things you believe exegetically from the passages of the Bible.

That there is a former and latter rain, for instance, does not state that there will be a former and latter Pentacost Holy Spirit Universal Baptism. It's just not there in the Words. And it contradicts other places. If you want to convince me, show it to me in the Word.

Don't just give that cop-out, You won't see it, you can't see it, that's meaningless.

You wrote:

You read this passage as; "Here is some candy for you and you, it is for you" To me this makes no sense literarily and grammatically.

I don't really follow what you are saying here, for you and you, it is for you. I don't see how you connect this to the passage.

The passage is,

Ephesians 1:1-2 KJV
1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.



In the interlinear version, you can see how it reads, "to the holy ones the ones being in ephesus and to believing in Christ Jesus"

You assert that "holy ones" and "believers in Christ Jesus" are two different groups.

You apply this reasoning:

That analogy is how I read Ephesians 1:1-2.... It is just common sense to me, "Here is some candy for you and your sister" "It is for both of you".

Here again I fail to see how this matches up to the passage.

To the holy ones in ephesus and to the believers in Christ Jesus, grace and peace.

It's that "kai" there between saints and believers, is it explicative, or additive? Does it name two different things? Or the same in different words? Either is a valid use of "kai".

So that renders the passage ambiguous on it's face, and we require other passages to determine which should be the reading.

Is this "Saints, and believers", or "Saints, even believers". Both are valid readings.

Are you with me so far?

Much love!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

What does the Bible say about Christian saints? What are saints?

 

[David H.]

In the interlinear version, you can see how it reads, "to the holy ones the ones being in ephesus and to believing in Christ Jesus"

You assert that "holy ones" and "believers in Christ Jesus" are two different groups.

You apply this reasoning:

That analogy is how I read Ephesians 1:1-2.... It is just common sense to me, "Here is some candy for you and your sister" "It is for both of you".

Here again I fail to see how this matches up to the passage.

To the holy ones in ephesus and to the believers in Christ Jesus, grace and peace.

It's that "kai" there between saints and believers, is it explicative, or additive? Does it name two different things? Or the same in different words? Either is a valid use of "kai".

So that renders the passage ambiguous on it's face, and we require other passages to determine which should be the reading.

Is this "Saints, and believers", or "Saints, even believers". Both are valid readings.

Are you with me so far?

It is simply a separation of saints and the faithful. If Paul wanted to say the saints and the faithful are one in the same, he would have written "to the faithful saints at Ephesus" He did not, and he put the conjunction "Kai" between them.

He does this elsewhere as well....To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Colossians 1:2)

In Philippians he writes: Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: (Philippians 1:1), Meaning even the deacons and Bishops are not the saints.

This is evident in Ephesians 4:11-13
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

There are multiple roles in the church, Not everyone is an Apostle or a Prophet, not everyone is a saint, Even Apostles and Prophets are not nescessarily saints. What then is it that makes a saint? They are set apart from the whole, consecrated for the sole purpose of giving their testimony (Martyria) Not all are called for this purpose.

Most people brought up in Protestant thinking have this so ingrained in their thinking that all believers are saints, that they have a hard time seeing this distinction between them. so when I say you cannot see or do not want to see it that is what I am talking about. Your view is a rooted assumption that biases your views, and it is hard to see that assumption at work in your perception.

You say this brings division, I say it brings harmony and unity of Spirit. Understanding that not all are saints means that not all have to suffer persecution and martyrdom, only those who are called to do. In this understanding comes the appreciation for those who do make this sacrifice... gratitude, and honoring of their sacrifice rather than dishonoring them.

first, I don't accept that you have much maturity in the Lord, given how you act.

This is a snide remark that i will ignore, and shows your own immaturity.

 

[marks]

It is simply a separation of saints and the faithful. If Paul wanted to say the saints and the faithful are one in the same, he would have written "to the faithful saints at Ephesus" He did not, and he put the conjunction "Kai" between them.

You need to understand how the Greek works.

Kai is either "and", adding one thing and another, the brick, and the red block, two pieces. This is called the copulative use of Kai. Or, it is "even", The brick, even the red block, a single thing. This is called the explicative use of Kai. It reads the same either way.

If you want to get into this kind of exegesis, you need to understand things like this.

Much love!