Outer darkness

[stunnedbygrace]

To apply the expression 'Sons of God ....daughters of men' from the reference in Genesis to mean evil angels bonked with pretty women is a misunderstanding.....and a primitive one at that.

Once again: post #26 is where I related that it doesn’t have to be that “had relations” means “sex.” So I’m not sure why you keep bringing that up…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Here is also a contrast in identification re 'the sons of the devil'. It does not mean they were the literal progeny of the devil or evil angels having relationships with women.

And here again a second time, even within the same post.
Once again, I didn’t say it does have to mean that.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Be mindful ...and careful of eisegesis!

Be mindful that conversations progress and it is necessary to remember what has already been discussed for this to happen. Otherwise, the same things just get repeated over and over again rather than any progression.

 

[quietthinker]

Be mindful that conversations progress and it is necessary to remember what has already been discussed for this to happen. Otherwise, the same things just get repeated over and over again rather than any progression.

I get the feeling sbg that you have missed the points I intended ?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Lol…?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It’s as if we began to have a conversation and you said, nice weather we’re having, and I replied, very much so, and then you said again, nice weather we’re having…

 

[quietthinker]

It’s as if we began to have a conversation and you said, nice weather we’re having, and I replied, very much so, and then you said again, nice weather we’re having…

hmmmm, thats not how I perceived it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

hmmmm, thats not how I perceived it.

Lol. Has someone confused our language…?

 

[quietthinker]

Lol. Has someone confused our language…?

I hope not....but let's persevere; we can work it out.
I've reread my post #130 to you which has caused you confusion and edited it a little. Maybe it's clearer?

 

[quietthinker]

@stunnedbygrace ...thinking further, I'm assuming I lost you at post #130.....maybe I lost you earlier? You will need to tell me specifically where you got lost...... that might be helpful for me.......that is of course if you're interested in unraveling this confusion?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

the assumption is that the expressions 'sons of God' means angels and 'sons of men' means humans.
Adam is mentioned as being a Son of God, Luke 3:38.
....also, the genealogy of Adam by-passes Cain and Abel and jumps straight to Seth in both Genesis 5:3 and Luke 3:38.

What am I saying here? I am saying that the lineage recorded has missed some entries (children) in favour of those who were believers .....in other words, those who were deemed 'Sons of God' in this case.
Why is this of interest? because it shifts the common understanding of how 'Sons of God' and 'Sons of Men' are interpreted.

Actually…might have been here that you lost me.
You try to trace back to Adam as the father of all who trust in God. But God seems to be okay with saying Abraham is the father of all who trust in God.

Your reason for this being of such importance to you is because you want to show that the renowned men of old/giants of roughly 10 feet tall and over/nephilim are…what? Sons of men who never trusted God, who we call sons of God because they DID trust God…? So did they trust God or did they not trust God. I get too confused. I do see that your goal is to prove that it was just men and women and that there was no hybrid race and that it was just normal men and women who created these men of renown/giants such as Goliath.

But I kind of see an odd (and I see it vaguely but do see it) connection, or repeat to come, where satan actually has planned to repeat the…idea of children from him/nephilim but while also trying to fix what failed in his plan. Like making these hybrid “children” stronger than to be killed by one stone to the forehead, so that for 5 months men will seek to die but will be unable to. I can in no way believe that God decides to cause tormented men to be unable to die for 5 months to extend their torment so that even though they seek death, try to kill themselves, they can’t. That’s not God.

Anyway, these are my thoughts. I don’t say, “this is absolutely how it will happen you Idjit!“ I don’t even seek to convince anyone I’m right. How could I do that when I see it so vaguely? I just present my ideas based on what I’ve read. I don’t think it’s one of the most crucial aspects or things to our continued trust.

Thats not my only thought on it, it’s just the only one I care to share right now.

 

[quietthinker]

Actually…might have been here that you lost me.
You try to trace back to Adam as the father of all who trust in God. But God seems to be okay with saying Abraham is the father of all who trust in God.

Your reason for this being of such importance to you is because you want to show that the renowned men of old/giants of roughly 10 feet tall and over/nephilim are…what? Sons of men who never trusted God, who we call sons of God because they DID trust God…? So did they trust God or did they not trust God. I get too confused. I do see that your goal is to prove that it was just men and women and that there was no hybrid race and that it was just normal men and women who created these men of renown/giants such as Goliath.

But I kind of see an odd (and I see it vaguely but do see it) connection, or repeat to come, where satan actually has planned to repeat the…idea of children from him/nephilim but while also trying to fix what failed in his plan. Like making these hybrid “children” stronger than to be killed by one stone to the forehead, so that for 5 months men will seek to die but will be unable to. I can in no way believe that God decides to cause tormented men to be unable to die for 5 months to extend their torment so that even though they seek death, try to kill themselves, they can’t. That’s not God.

Anyway, these are my thoughts. I don’t say, “this is absolutely how it will happen you Idjit!“ I don’t even seek to convince anyone I’m right. How could I do that when I see it so vaguely? I just present my ideas based on what I’ve read. I don’t think it’s one of the most crucial aspects or things to our continued trust.

Thats not my only thought on it, it’s just the only one I care to share right now.

Firstly sbg, thank you for your confidence. I think many of us try and put the puzzle together by adding a bit of our own imagination/guesswork, me included. One of the things that has crossed my mind and I think it's plausible is that the antediluvians were into genetic engineering as they were into engineering the elements (weather and such)

I know it sounds far fetched at first glance, however here is something to consider. Man coming directly from the hand of God had qualities/abilities/intelligence long since faded/lost. This was used in a negative/destructive way. How? they played with the genetics of animals and produced the monsters we today know as Dinosaurs. None of these creatures went into the ark, which I think is noteworthy.

I would like to digress briefly by saying, in general terms, the evolutionary theory works from the assumption that man began as an amoeba and is heading towards Godhead, getting smarter and smarter .....citing the latest technology.
The creation model is the opposite. It says Man, created in the image of God (very smart) is on a downhill slide to self destruction.
It is too easy to assume that the early inhabitants of earth were dumbo's or primitive. What this assumption does is overlay the evolutionary principle onto the creation story.....which I think is in error.

If this is accurate I don't think it unreasonable to see that the antediluvians were capable of stuff unknown to us today or if not unknown are beginning to discover, things like the manipulation of weather and the thermonuclear destruction of our Planet.

I agree with you when you say; quote 'I can in no way believe that God decides to cause tormented men to be unable to die for 5 months to extend their torment so that even though they seek death, try to kill themselves, they can’t. That’s not God.'

God is into life and joy, not torture and death. That's the devils domain. Jesus made that clear......subsequently I find it difficult to accept God was the cause of the flood any more than I can accept God created the Dinosaur monsters......even though Moses (the writer) attributed this to God...the flood ie....and there was much attributed to God which I find questionable. (there is more to be said on this but not now)

The manipulation of genetics no doubt extended even to humans where giants were created....a bit like cattlemen breed prize bulls of massive size to gain the meat advantage. This doesn't need to be technology which involves test tubes and laboratories but simply selective breeding ie, breeding to get the desired qualities. In their case, giants. It's a slower process but they had time, living up to and over 900 years.

Out of curiosity, I would like to touch on your idea that the 'relations' the 'Sons of God' had with the daughters of men were not necessarily that of doing the 'wild thing'. What other option do you propose? .....immaculate conception?

....and like you said, these are my thoughts ......in an attempt to reconcile that which we have limited information on.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Out of curiosity, I would like to touch on your idea that the 'relations' the 'Sons of God' had with the daughters of men were not necessarily that of doing the 'wild thing'. What other option do you propose? .....immaculate conception?

I had some thoughts while reading but have to read your post again to remember them, but this at the end - I’m not sure…but I think this could have to do with that ”having relations with.”
NLT
“But I also have a message for the rest of you in Thyatira who have not followed this false teaching (‘deeper truths,’ as they call them—depths of Satan, actually).
That is Jesus speaking right there. Depths of satan? Deep things of satan?

The Holy Spirit teaches us the deep things of God. we should always expect a counterfeit by satan of good things. And there are some very scary things that can happen to people who dabble with seeking out things in the spirit world. I’m not talking Hollywood scary stuff, I’m talking about real people who came to God after seeking out and having some type of relations/discourse with evil spirits. Is every story true? Of course not. There are even counterfeits of satans counterfeits! Lol.
Some have even dabbled in various psychedelics and swear there was some sort of gateway for evil spirits by it. Others have what they call “familiar spirits” who started out seeming kind and sort of humorous who later scared the heck out of them by almost taking them over, according to them.
Demon possession is in the Bible. I mean, it’s there. It’s not made up by Hollywood. Some new believers are scared by that and go on strange tangents so it’s not the type of thing I would really discuss with them. They can get all crazy about it needlessly.

 

[Nancy]

"Symbolic" is not synonymous with "meaningless". The rocks can be raised into sons of Abraham. This is a symbol indeed, it means that any matter can be given life and even faith through transmutation by God.

Luke 19
40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Once again, another reference to this idea. There is no such thing as something that is dead matter, everything has the spirit of God in it. This is the very definition of omniprsesence. If God is not omnipresent then this violates the very concept of God.

Hi Adam,
"everything has the spirit of God in it." <---- As far as creation, other than humans are concerned, I do see these verses and many more:

Psalm 66:4 ​

"All the earth worships you and sings praises to you; they sing praises to your name.” Selah"

Isaiah 55:12 ​

“For you shall go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands."

I am pretty sure these are metaphors. Yet, when I see His beautiful, majestic creation, it takes my breath away and, all things alive, other than human seem to reach high into the sky in worship-the trees, the mountains even some animals like my schnauzers, always look up into the sky when they go to the park as if they are worshipping and praising God! Although, I know they are actually smelling the air, I don't care....it's sweet to think it.
But, I would not say they have spirits like humans, who have been created in His image. At least not the trees, mountains and streams...but then again, I could be so wrong.

JMHO

 

[Adam]

Hi Adam,
"everything has the spirit of God in it." <---- As far as creation, other than humans are concerned, I do see these verses and many more:

Psalm 66:4 ​

"All the earth worships you and sings praises to you; they sing praises to your name.” Selah"

Isaiah 55:12 ​

“For you shall go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands."

I am pretty sure these are metaphors. Yet, when I see His beautiful, majestic creation, it takes my breath away and, all things alive, other than human seem to reach high into the sky in worship-the trees, the mountains even some animals like my schnauzers, always look up into the sky when they go to the park as if they are worshipping and praising God! Although, I know they are actually smelling the air, I don't care....it's sweet to think it.
But, I would not say they have spirits like humans, who have been created in His image. At least not the trees, mountains and streams...but then again, I could be so wrong.

JMHO

Have you ever seen the wind blowing through the trees or the rain dancing on the grass and thought "This is God, all of it?" Every drop of rain is God, every blade of grass is God, every shake of the leaves, as the breeze passes by, these are God's footsteps. The Holy Spirit is in them as surely as the Holy Spirit is in us. The universe itself is alive, it has a soul of its own and we are a small part of it. And as surely as we have souls, so does everything in the universe have a soul which feeds from God's presence and lives by His will.

 

[Nancy]

Have you ever seen the wind blowing through the trees or the rain dancing on the grass and thought "This is God, all of it?" Every drop of rain is God, every blade of grass is God, every shake of the leaves, as the breeze passes by, these are God's footsteps. The Holy Spirit is in them as surely as the Holy Spirit is in us. The universe itself is alive, it has a soul of its own and we are a small part of it. And as surely as we have souls, so does everything in the universe have a soul which feeds from God's presence and lives by His will.

Well, I can sure see that nothing happens in His creation that He does not allow. But, it is His "creation" (just as we too are His creation) and we are not to worship the creation but the "Creator".

Romans 1:25 – "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."

Jm2c

 

[Adam]

I'm not a pagan, I don't worship nature, but sometimes, I can catch a glimpse of God, and God isn't sitting on a cloud, He's right here beside us.

 

[Space_Karen]

Is it fair to say outer darkness.

Is similar to a spiritual dark age.

Those who dwell in darkness see no evil, nor hear no evil.

As everything they do is like the blind leading the blind.

"Outer darkness."